LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

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Rescued One

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I believe that everyone who follows Christ are Christians.

Who follows Christ? People who believe false doctrine? People who commit adultery? People who pretend to be Christians?
 
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Major1

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Joseph was also a farm boy who lived in a day and age where most of the work, including the back-breaking stuff, was done via manual labor. So he was most likely very strong, at least by modern standards where physical strength isn't as much of a necessity in daily life.

IIRC, Joseph was known to participate in wrestling even as an adult, something that also takes a fair bit of strength and stamina to pull off. (Remember, we'd be looking at either Olympic wrestling or catch wrestling, not the professional wrestling you see on TV.)

Again - I've got a bad back & a blown knee, and yet I can still slog around an 80 pound bag of concrete mix without issue; I just can't dead-lift it. Someone like Joseph Smith being able to haul with a 90 pound set of plates? Entirely believable.

You paint him in a lovely, well taught picture.
But in reality, He was quite a bit more than a "farm boy" wasn't he?????
Joseph Smith, the founder of the Latter Day Saint movement, was "subjected to approximately thirty criminal actions" during his life.

While in New York, Smith faced charges of being a "disorderly person" in 1826 and 1830.

In Ohio, he was arrested multiple times on a variety of charges. On January 12, 1838, a warrant was issued for Smith's arrest on a charge of banking fraud. Rather than submit to arrest, Smith fled the jurisdiction, escaping Ohio into Missouri.

In Missouri, he was accused of threatening a public official. After his loss in the 1838 Mormon War, Smith was charged with treason against Missouri. Smith was allowed to escape custody and fled the jurisdiction, escaping into Illinois.

In Illinois, Smith faced arrests in connection to his Missouri charges, including a later indictment on the charge of conspiring to assassinate the former Governor of Missouri (while Smith was residing in Illinois). In 1844, he was charged with inciting a riot in the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor. Smith declared martial law and called out the Nauvoo Legion to enforce it—leading to charges of treason against Illinois.

While in jail awaiting trial, Smith was killed by a mob.
 
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Major1

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Major1

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I didn't ask if you could do it in your current condition. :doh:

More conjecture. Next you'll be telling us Forest Gump was based on a real life character...

You mean he wasn't?????
 
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Major1

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The Bible states there will be prophets after Jesus Christ.

Actually you are incorrect AGAIN!

Matthew 24:4-5 ............
“Take heed that no one deceives you. For many shall come claiming to represent Me, saying that I [Jesus] am the Christ, yet shall deceive many.”

That is, they would proclaim Jesus as the biblical Messiah and would claim to be His representatives—but they actually would be part of a massive religious deception.

2 Tim. 3:13.............
“evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived”.

So not only do they deceive others. These false teachers themselves are deceived.
 
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Major1

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Note: I wanted to make sure that it was clear my post #163 was referring to CARM's work. Major1, if you want me to clarify any point of LDS theology, I'd be happy to. If so, just let me know which point you'd like me to start on first (that seems more logical than me just randomly picking one).

Why not respond to comment #169............
"Another general assertion that you cannot back up with supporting evidence. Why don't YOU clarify and elaborate on what part of CARM's work is "rife with misrepresentations of LDS beliefs"??

Pick one. Any one. And then tell us WHY it misrepresents lds beliefs."
 
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Major1

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Okay. What does that have to do with the Christian biblical canon?

I don't like having to re-ask the same question three times in a row. Please, could you make whatever point you are trying to make a bit more explicit than this? It is not at all clear to me how your questions relate to the Christian canon.

That is easy to answer. He has rejected the Bible as the Word of God.

That sounds really harsh when said and most people who are Christians will immediately run from that kind of response. BUT the Mormons and the Catholics and JW'S have in fact done exactly that.

The Mormons rejected the Bible as the Word of God and instead accepted the Book of Mormon.

The Catholic's rejected the Word of God and instead accepted the TRADITIONS of men.

The JW's rejected the Word of God and paid 2 men to produce the New Word Translation.
 
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He is the way

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Who follows Christ? People who believe false doctrine? People who commit adultery? People who pretend to be Christians?
So Protestants are perfect? No they are far from it. That being said, the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is correct.
 
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He is the way

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Actually you are incorrect AGAIN!

Matthew 24:4-5 ............
“Take heed that no one deceives you. For many shall come claiming to represent Me, saying that I [Jesus] am the Christ, yet shall deceive many.”

That is, they would proclaim Jesus as the biblical Messiah and would claim to be His representatives—but they actually would be part of a massive religious deception.

2 Tim. 3:13.............
“evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived”.

So not only do they deceive others. These false teachers themselves are deceived.

I am NOT wrong:

(New Testament | Revelation 11:3 - 13)

3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
9 And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves.
10 And they that dwell upon the earth shall rejoice over them, and make merry, and shall send gifts one to another; because these two prophets tormented them that dwelt on the earth.
11 And after three days and an half the Spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
 
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He is the way

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And because you do, you have fallen into the deception of the Devil himself.

Because you have rejected the Bible as the Word of God and accepted the Book of Joseph Smith along with The Doctrine and Covenants and The Pearl of Great Price, you know accept such unbiblical nonsense as God was once being a man, denial of the Trinity, Satan being Jesus' brother, pre-existence of souls.

Joseph Smith was not a prophet. He was in fact a JAIL BIRD and was actually killed while in jail.

God has already revealed His test for would-be prophets, and it has nothing to do with prayer or feelings, and God has no obligation to answer prayers that He has already answered! We do not have to ask God whether or not we should rob a bank or murder someone. Rather, James 1:5 says............
"If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God . . . and it will be given to him."

Wisdom is applied knowledge, not lack of it.

What are the biblical tests for a prophet? They are in God's Word in
Deuteronomy 18:21-22 says.........
"You may say to yourselves, ‘How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD?’ If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him."

Did Joseph Smith ever claim "in the name of the LORD" that something would happen when it did not? Yes—many times, in fact.

Joseph Smith prophesied that New York would be destroyed if they rejected the [Mormon] gospel (D&C 84:114-115).

He also prophesied that the rebellion of South Carolina and the War Between the States would result in war being poured out upon all nations; slaves would revolt; the inhabitants of the earth would mourn; famine, plague, earthquake, thunder, lightning, and a full end of all nations would result (D&C 87).

Oddly, this prophecy is the one most often cited by Mormons to prove Joseph Smith's prophetic power!
You seem to think these things will not happen, but they will. Many of the prophecies mentioned in the Bible have not come to pass yet either. Paul was also a jail bird so why do you believe him?
 
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twin.spin

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So Protestants are perfect? No they are far from it. That being said, the doctrine of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints is correct.
A: Yes. Biblical Christianity teaches that (Hebrews 10:14).

Instead, LDS doctrine rejects Biblical Christianity in favor of "doing all you can do" which is man-centered justification through the law.

Biblical Christianity says Jesus’ main teaching was that he came to do everything for our salvation. The essence of being a disciple, therefore, is believing and trusting this. (Hebrews 10:14)
 
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He is the way

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That is easy to answer. He has rejected the Bible as the Word of God.

That sounds really harsh when said and most people who are Christians will immediately run from that kind of response. BUT the Mormons and the Catholics and JW'S have in fact done exactly that.

The Mormons rejected the Bible as the Word of God and instead accepted the Book of Mormon.

The Catholic's rejected the Word of God and instead accepted the TRADITIONS of men.

The JW's rejected the Word of God and paid 2 men to produce the New Word Translation.

Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints do believe in and use the Bible. I quote from it all of the time. Why didn't you know that there would be prophets after Christ?
 
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He is the way

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A: Yes. Biblical Christianity teaches that (Hebrews 10:14).

Instead, LDS doctrine rejects Biblical Christianity in favor of "doing all you can do" which is man-centered justification through the law.

Biblical Christianity says Jesus’ main teaching was that he came to do everything for our salvation. The essence of being a disciple, therefore, is believing and trusting this. (Hebrews 10:14)

I understand the Bible:

Dead faith will not save:

(New Testament | Hebrews 11:6)

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

We will be judged by our works:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Unprofitable servant:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:30)

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Goats:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:33 - 46)

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You don't get to pick and choose what to believe.
 
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Jane_Doe

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Why not respond to comment #169............
"Another general assertion that you cannot back up with supporting evidence. Why don't YOU clarify and elaborate on what part of CARM's work is "rife with misrepresentations of LDS beliefs"??

Pick one. Any one. And then tell us WHY it misrepresents lds beliefs."
I'm not a wall-of-text person-- you probably don't want to read a wall of text, and I don't want to write it. So, I'm going to keep this short and focus on the big points. Free free to ask for any elaboration you want. If something appears contradictory to what you've been told about LDS beliefs, I'd encourage you to ask about it rather than slamming up a wall of quotes. Also, if you want any sources supporting what I'm saying here, I'm happy to provide them.
From CARM Is Mormonism Christian? Are Mormons Christian? | CARM.org

To reiterate, Mormonism is not Christian because it denies one or more of the
essential doctrines of Christianity that are stated in the Bible. Here is a basic list of what true Christianity teaches as Christian doctrine according to the Bible, not our interpretation.

  1. There is only one God in all existence (Exodus 20:1-4; Isaiah 43:10; 44:6, 8; 45:5).
  2. Jesus is divine (John 1:1, 14; 8:24; Col. 2:9)
  3. Forgiveness of sins is by grace alone without works (Eph. 2:8-9; Rom. 3:28; 4:1-5)
  4. Jesus rose from the dead physically (John 2:19-21; Luke 24:39)
  5. The gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus (1 Cor. 15:1-4)
Actually LDS firmly believe all of these. There are common misconceptions around #1 because LDS believe there is ONE God via unity and not via a shared substance as Athanasian Creed states. CARM's claim for #2 is simply bunk. #3 is a another common misconception which I will elaborate more on in a minute. #4 is also complete bunk. Same with #5.
This is in strict contrast to the biblical teaching that he is God in flesh (John 1:1, 14), eternal (John 1:1, 2, 15), uncreated, yet born on earth (Col. 1:15), and the creator of all (John 1:3; Col. 1:16-17).
Actually LDS firmly believe all these.
Jesus cannot be both created and not created at the same time.
LDS believe Christ has always existed and is no way a "creation" as Creedal Christians believe man is. There are differences between Creedal beliefs about man and LDS beliefs.
Mormonism says Jesus' Sacrifice is not enough...
This is a complete straw man argument. No, LDS don't believe in OSAS, Calvinism, or the idea that God denies free will. But none of those are requirement to be Christian. LDS also don't believe that our works save us or the Law of Moses (contrary to CARM's claims). Rather, LDS believe that it's grace that saves-- salvation is gift from God. A person must accept this gift via faith and repentance. Yes, LDS firmly deny any theology that says anyone has a license to sin.
"We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly." This means that when the Bible contradicts Mormonism, the Bible isn't trustworthy.
Actually LDS love the Bible and aren't going to to accept poor translations of it (sorry NWT, you're vetoed off the island). I don't think LDS are alone in desiring correct translations.
But that isn't what makes someone Christian--
The Biblical definition of a Christian: a disciple of Christ (Acts 11:19-26).

(Dang, this still turned into a small wall of text!)
 
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BigDaddy4

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Again, adrenaline.

Adrenaline can turn even normal people into superheroes.

PCP? Smack? Our bodies produce something far more potent. The stories of people single-handedly lifting cars off babies? Real.

Real-life tale? Look up Dmitriy Ovcharenko. Mild-mannered truck driver working for the Russian military in World War II when he hit a roadblock set up and maintained by 50 German soldiers.

Our boy Dmitriy grabbed an axe that was in his truck and went Freddy Kreuger on them, chasing the survivors of his initial onslaught a full two miles.
I'm aware of such stories. However, still does not equate with a 90 lb book for 3 miles with a limp. Not Real.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Who has the right to say it is not true?
The eight witnesses weighed the plates and they weighed 30 pounds not 90 pounds. Joseph Smith was a strong man. few if any could keep up with him when he was working in the field.
Incorrect. Not all 8 witnesses said 30 lbs; some said 40-60. The 90 lbs came from an estimation in another thread that was not disputed.

Regardless of actual weight, running with a limp for 3 miles and carrying them while being chased through woods by men who want to harm him is highly unlikely.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Actually you are incorrect AGAIN!

Matthew 24:4-5 ............
“Take heed that no one deceives you. For many shall come claiming to represent Me, saying that I [Jesus] am the Christ, yet shall deceive many.”

That is, they would proclaim Jesus as the biblical Messiah and would claim to be His representatives—but they actually would be part of a massive religious deception.

2 Tim. 3:13.............
“evil men and imposters will grow worse and worse, deceiving and being deceived”.

So not only do they deceive others. These false teachers themselves are deceived.
And then there's Mark 13:22-23
For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. So be on your guard; I have told you everything ahead of time.
 
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twin.spin

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I understand the Bible:

Dead faith will not save:

(New Testament | Hebrews 11:6)

6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
(New Testament | James 2:14 - 17)

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

We will be judged by our works:

(New Testament | Revelation 20:12 - 13)

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Unprofitable servant:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:30)

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Goats:

(New Testament | Matthew 25:33 - 46)

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

You don't get to pick and choose what to believe.
Correct ... You don't get to pick and choose what to believe.
You quoted (New Testament | Matthew 25:30 - 46)
A closer reading teaches:

1) The sheep\goats are where they are as being already determined prior to any subsequent dialog

2) The sheep ask:
"Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?" ~ sheep

The goats take it even farther in asking:
"Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?" ~ Goats
Now which group (sheep or goats) sounds more like "grace after do all you can do"?

So why are the goats cursed to outer darkness and us sheep living with heavenly Father in exaltation?
 
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