LDS As Latter-day Saints use the words saved and salvation, there are at least six different meanings.

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dzheremi

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They are definitely related to Christianity. The Book of Mormon is about Jesus Christ's dealings with the ancient people who lived on the American continent and His visit to them as he stated:

By that standard (the "this book talks about Jesus" standard), then the Qur'an should be a part of the Christian canon just as much as the Book of Mormon or any other Mormon book. Yet it isn't, and what's more I know from talking to Mormons on this board who have made the same argument in the past as you are making now that Mormons will reject this comparison, because the Islamic faith is clearly outside of Christianity, and furthermore the content of the Qur'an is out of whack in a major way with what is claimed about Jesus Christ in the Holy Bible. You don't say. :scratch:

But for the Christian, that is precisely the level at which the comparison is most apt: They both (the Qur'an and the Mormon literature) make up fables about their own "Jesus" figures which they then claim to be the same the Christian figure of Jesus Christ, and then their partisans act incredulous when these fables and the books which contain them are not put on the same level as holy scripture within Christianity.

It is most curious...and self-serving. Another iteration of it from you will not change the response already given (in the above-linked thread, and I guess again here), which is the Mormonism is rejected based on the content of its beliefs, and because of that the books that it has produced (the BOM, the D&C, the POGP, and anything else you can come up with) are considered to be outside of Christianity.

(New Testament | John 10:16)

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Yeah, this verse is about the preaching of the Good News to the gentiles. It has nothing to do with Mormon anything except that Mormons say it does, which is no kind of standard that anyone who is not Mormon should be expected to go by.

The Doctrine and Covenants are revelations given to latter day prophets by Jesus Christ.

No, they're not. I understand that this is your view of them as a Mormon, but I am a Christian, not a Mormon, so I don't think there is anything wrong with rejecting them outright, since they're not what your religion says they are. Your prophets have never received any revelation from God in any sense, whether codified within your religion or otherwise. Mormonism is not Christians and its writings have no bearing on anything in the Christian world.

Sorry to have to be so blunt, but that's kinda the most straightforward way to put it.

The Pearle of Great Price was translated from ancient Egyptian papyrus.

No it wasn't. I'm not even sure that the LDS church itself still teaches that. On their website, they state:

Many people saw the papyri, but no eyewitness account of the translation survives, making it impossible to reconstruct the process. Only small fragments of the long papyrus scrolls once in Joseph Smith’s possession exist today. The relationship between those fragments and the text we have today is largely a matter of conjecture.

We do know some things about the translation process. The word translation typically assumes an expert knowledge of multiple languages. Joseph Smith claimed no expertise in any language. He readily acknowledged that he was one of the “weak things of the world,” called to speak words sent “from heaven.”1 Speaking of the translation of the Book of Mormon, the Lord said, “You cannot write that which is sacred save it be given you from me.”2 The same principle can be applied to the book of Abraham. The Lord did not require Joseph Smith to have knowledge of Egyptian. By the gift and power of God, Joseph received knowledge about the life and teachings of Abraham.​

In other words, it's not really a translation of anything, but is now understood as being more of a spiritual exercise whereby Joseph received knowledge from God somehow connected to the papyri without reflecting the actual contents of it. Which for our purposes is as good as saying that they do not affirm that it actually comes from the papyri -- because it doesn't.

They are accepted by over 16 million members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints.

So what? The Baghavad Gita is accepted as scripture by over a billion Hindus. What does that tell us about anything?
 
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Ironhold

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The story of the gold plates cannot be underestimated, for without them there can be no Book of Mormon.

Joseph was also a farm boy who lived in a day and age where most of the work, including the back-breaking stuff, was done via manual labor. So he was most likely very strong, at least by modern standards where physical strength isn't as much of a necessity in daily life.

IIRC, Joseph was known to participate in wrestling even as an adult, something that also takes a fair bit of strength and stamina to pull off. (Remember, we'd be looking at either Olympic wrestling or catch wrestling, not the professional wrestling you see on TV.)

Again - I've got a bad back & a blown knee, and yet I can still slog around an 80 pound bag of concrete mix without issue; I just can't dead-lift it. Someone like Joseph Smith being able to haul with a 90 pound set of plates? Entirely believable.
 
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Ironhold

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Can you run 3 miles with a limp carrying 80 pounds while being chased through the woods? Already discussed here.
LDS - What is the basis of changes to the BoM?

I've got a blown knee and a bad back, so I really can't run period.

You'll be wanting another rhethorical point there.

As far as Joseph Smith goes, never underestimate what adrenaline can both do to and do for a person. Tales of what people have done while hyped up on adrenaline are as incredible as they are legion, including people who've done things a normal person shouldn't have been able to do even while healthy. I'd recommend spending some quality time with the works of author and historian Ben Thompson if you don't believe me, as "people being awesome" is his area of expertise; just remember that Thompson sometimes uses strong language in his works.
 
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BigDaddy4

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Joseph was also a farm boy who lived in a day and age where most of the work, including the back-breaking stuff, was done via manual labor. So he was most likely very strong, at least by modern standards where physical strength isn't as much of a necessity in daily life.
He had a limp from a childhood surgery.
IIRC, Joseph was known to participate in wrestling even as an adult, something that also takes a fair bit of strength and stamina to pull off. (Remember, we'd be looking at either Olympic wrestling or catch wrestling, not the professional wrestling you see on TV.)
Wrestling is about leverage, not brute strength. You seem to have an overinflated view of your prophet.
Again - I've got a bad back & a blown knee, and yet I can still slog around an 80 pound bag of concrete mix without issue; I just can't dead-lift it. Someone like Joseph Smith being able to haul with a 90 pound set of plates? Entirely believable.
According to mama Smith, several guys chased him for about 3 miles while he was carrying the plates. Even the best trained soldier, athlete, or physically fit person could not run with 90 lbs for 3 miles and avoid being caught. Entirely NOT believable.
 
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Ironhold

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You need to stop deflecting and deal with the content of the information. You seem to have no qualms about providing misinformation to cover the blemishes of your prophets, nor oversensationalizing events that may or may not have happened because you cannot provide proof. It's all in your god's name, though, right? Log, beam...

And the response I made...?
 
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BigDaddy4

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I've got a blown knee and a bad back, so I really can't run period.

You'll be wanting another rhethorical point there.

As far as Joseph Smith goes, never underestimate what adrenaline can both do to and do for a person. Tales of what people have done while hyped up on adrenaline are as incredible as they are legion, including people who've done things a normal person shouldn't have been able to do even while healthy. I'd recommend spending some quality time with the works of author and historian Ben Thompson if you don't believe me, as "people being awesome" is his area of expertise; just remember that Thompson sometimes uses strong language in his works.
I didn't ask if you could do it in your current condition. :doh:

More conjecture. Next you'll be telling us Forest Gump was based on a real life character...
 
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Ironhold

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Even the best trained soldier, athlete, or physically fit person could not run with 90 lbs for 3 miles and avoid being caught. Entirely NOT believable.

Again, adrenaline.

Adrenaline can turn even normal people into superheroes.

PCP? Smack? Our bodies produce something far more potent. The stories of people single-handedly lifting cars off babies? Real.

Real-life tale? Look up Dmitriy Ovcharenko. Mild-mannered truck driver working for the Russian military in World War II when he hit a roadblock set up and maintained by 50 German soldiers.

Our boy Dmitriy grabbed an axe that was in his truck and went Freddy Kreuger on them, chasing the survivors of his initial onslaught a full two miles.
 
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He is the way

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He had a limp from a childhood surgery.

Wrestling is about leverage, not brute strength. You seem to have an overinflated view of your prophet.

According to mama Smith, several guys chased him for about 3 miles while he was carrying the plates. Even the best trained soldier, athlete, or physically fit person could not run with 90 lbs for 3 miles and avoid being caught. Entirely NOT believable.
The eight witnesses weighed the plates and they weighed 30 pounds not 90 pounds. Joseph Smith was a strong man. few if any could keep up with him when he was working in the field.
 
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He is the way

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That is interesting. Ran 3 miles with 90# of gold plates. How does anybody know how much they weighed? They were taken away---who weighed them?
They weighed 30 pounds. The eight witnesses weighed them.
 
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dzheremi

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Who has the right to say it is not true?

Traditionally, those who claimed to be among us but did not follow the faith were brought before synods of bishops to account for what they believe, as happened to (e.g.) Montanus, Pelagius, Eutyches, etc. Some (such as Origen of Alexandria) were condemned after their death on account of the effect of their teaching upon the Church. Some were exonerated (Pelagius), some exonerated for a time only to be condemned after returning to their heresies (Eutyches), etc.

The point is, nobody ever took anyone's self-identification as Christians as though this in itself absolves anyone from holding to the correct faith as preached and lived within the Church itself.

Anyone can label themselves anything. What matters is what they teach, and if it is in accordance with what we have received from the Holy Spirit since the day of Pentecost, through the holy apostles and disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all those who have followed in their footsteps throughout the world down to today.
 
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He is the way

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Traditionally, those who claimed to be among us but did not follow the faith were brought before synods of bishops to account for what they believe, as happened to (e.g.) Montanus, Pelagius, Eutyches, etc. Some (such as Origen of Alexandria) were condemned after their death on account of the effect of their teaching upon the Church. Some were exonerated (Pelagius), some exonerated for a time only to be condemned after returning to their heresies (Eutyches), etc.

The point is, nobody ever took anyone's self-identification as Christians as though this in itself absolves anyone from holding to the correct faith as preached and lived within the Church itself.

Anyone can label themselves anything. What matters is what they teach, and if it is in accordance with what we have received from the Holy Spirit since the day of Pentecost, through the holy apostles and disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ, and all those who have followed in their footsteps throughout the world down to today.
I believe this scripture sums it up:

(Old Testament | Ecclesiastes 12:13 - 14)

13 ¶ Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
 
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dzheremi

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I am not going to argue either way regarding what you feel the scripture is saying to you. That is not the point, as the eisegesis of non-Christians such as Mormons or others has absolutely no bearing on how the Church functions. This is why I have presented a few examples from history of how the Church -- which, by the way, the scriptures call "the pillar and ground of truth" (1 Timothy 3:15) -- has answered your question of who has the right to judge another as being outside the Christian fold. The Church itself judges those who claim to be Christian, and always has, as that is indeed its responsibility and right according to both scripture (1 Corinthians 5:12-13) and the traditions that have been received in every place since day one. This is why we see it functioning in this manner even before the canonization of the scriptures themselves (e.g., in the anathematization of early heretics such as Marcion and Montanus in the 140s-170s, several centuries before the reception of the standard 27-book NT canon in the latter half of the fourth century).
 
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