Prophets or sinners?

[Godistruth1]

Are the prophets of God sinners and if they were prophets how come in bible they commit immoral crimes?

Shouldn't they be righteous men of example?

 

[Dkh587]

Will you post examples of what you're talking about?

 

[Godistruth1]

Will you post examples of what you're talking about?

The Bible states that after the flood, Noah became a farmer, (Gen. 9:20-23). He planted a field of grapes. Noah made wine and drank it. He became drunk and lay naked in his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his naked father. He told his brothers outside the tent. Then Shem and Japheth got a coat. They walked backwards into the tent, so they did not see their father naked. The wine made Noah sleep. But when he woke, he learned what Ham had done. He cursed Ham, and prayed that he be the slave of his brothers.
The book of Numbers narrates story about Moses. He asked his army to get even with the Midianites. The Israeli army killed all the Midianite men and burned all their towns and villages. They took the women, children, and animals and brought them to Moses. Moses was very angry with the leaders of the army. Moses said to them "Why did you let the women live." "Now kill all the Midianite boys and women and spare the women who had not sexual relations with any man" Numbers 31:15-17. The women who were spared were 32,000! Now imagine how many men, women and boys were killed by the command of Moses.

Genesis 19:30-36 tells us Lot took his two daughters to live in a cave in the mountain. The daughters conspired to use their father to grow a family by getting him drunk and then having sex with their father each in one night. They did that, and they became pregnant. The older daughter gave birth to a son called Moab, and the younger daughter gave birth to a son called Ben-Ammi

In Jacob’s family Judah was one of his sons. Genesis 38 tells his story. This patriarch of the Judaism got married and God granted him three sons: Er, Onan, and Shelah. When the first-born was old enough, Judah had him married to a lady called Tamar. "But Er, Judah’s first born was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." Gen. 38:7. Following the Jewish tradition, if a brother died and left no offspring, it was the duty of the other brother to give "seed" to his sister in law, so that the deceased’s name might be perpetuated. Judah, in honor with this custom, ordered his second son Onan to do this duty. But jealousy entered his heart. It would be his seed, but the name would be his brother’s. "He spilled it (sperms) on the ground...and the thing he did displeased the Lord: wherefore He slew him also." Gen. 38:9-10

According to the Bible, (I Kings 11:3-10), Solomon had 700 wives. He also had 300 slave women that were like wives to him. When Solomon was old, his wives forced him to follow theirs gods. Solomon worshipped Ashtoreth, the Cananite goddess of love and war. And Solomon also worshipped Milcom, the god of the Ammonite people. Solomon built a place on a hill next to Jerusalem for worshipping Chemosh, the idol of the Moabite people. Solomon also built a temple for Molech, the idol of the Ammonite people. Solomon did the same thing for all of his wives from other countries. The Lord came to Solomon and told him that he must not follow other gods. But Solomon did not follow the Lord’s command.

 

[Phil 1:21]

The Bible states that after the flood, Noah became a farmer, (Gen. 9:20-23). He planted a field of grapes. Noah made wine and drank it. He became drunk and lay naked in his tent. Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his naked father. He told his brothers outside the tent. Then Shem and Japheth got a coat. They walked backwards into the tent, so they did not see their father naked. The wine made Noah sleep. But when he woke, he learned what Ham had done. He cursed Ham, and prayed that he be the slave of his brothers.
The book of Numbers narrates story about Moses. He asked his army to get even with the Midianites. The Israeli army killed all the Midianite men and burned all their towns and villages. They took the women, children, and animals and brought them to Moses. Moses was very angry with the leaders of the army. Moses said to them "Why did you let the women live." "Now kill all the Midianite boys and women and spare the women who had not sexual relations with any man" Numbers 31:15-17. The women who were spared were 32,000! Now imagine how many men, women and boys were killed by the command of Moses.

Genesis 19:30-36 tells us Lot took his two daughters to live in a cave in the mountain. The daughters conspired to use their father to grow a family by getting him drunk and then having sex with their father each in one night. They did that, and they became pregnant. The older daughter gave birth to a son called Moab, and the younger daughter gave birth to a son called Ben-Ammi

In Jacob’s family Judah was one of his sons. Genesis 38 tells his story. This patriarch of the Judaism got married and God granted him three sons: Er, Onan, and Shelah. When the first-born was old enough, Judah had him married to a lady called Tamar. "But Er, Judah’s first born was wicked in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord slew him." Gen. 38:7. Following the Jewish tradition, if a brother died and left no offspring, it was the duty of the other brother to give "seed" to his sister in law, so that the deceased’s name might be perpetuated. Judah, in honor with this custom, ordered his second son Onan to do this duty. But jealousy entered his heart. It would be his seed, but the name would be his brother’s. "He spilled it (sperms) on the ground...and the thing he did displeased the Lord: wherefore He slew him also." Gen. 38:9-10

According to the Bible, (I Kings 11:3-10), Solomon had 700 wives. He also had 300 slave women that were like wives to him. When Solomon was old, his wives forced him to follow theirs gods. Solomon worshipped Ashtoreth, the Cananite goddess of love and war. And Solomon also worshipped Milcom, the god of the Ammonite people. Solomon built a place on a hill next to Jerusalem for worshipping Chemosh, the idol of the Moabite people. Solomon also built a temple for Molech, the idol of the Ammonite people. Solomon did the same thing for all of his wives from other countries. The Lord came to Solomon and told him that he must not follow other gods. But Solomon did not follow the Lord’s command.

The fact that not all of those mentioned were prophets aside, the lesson here (which is pervasive throughout scripture) is that God does extraordinary things with ordinary people. God doesn't look for perfect people; He looks for willing people. Moses was a murderer with a speech impediment, David was a murderer, Solomon turned to false gods, Rahab was a prostitute, Matthew was a tax collector, Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor and murderer of Christians...our youth pastor in school was a reformed drug addict. On and on it goes. Grace.

 

[zephcom]

The fact that not all of those mentioned were prophets aside, the lesson here (which is pervasive throughout scripture) is that God does extraordinary things with ordinary people. God doesn't look for perfect people; He looks for willing people. Moses was a murderer with a speech impediment, David was a murderer, Solomon turned to false gods, Rahab was a prostitute, Matthew was a tax collector, Saul of Tarsus was a persecutor and murderer of Christians...our youth pastor in school was a reformed drug addict. On and on it goes. Grace.

So there is no reason why someone should avoid doing wrong things because it doesn't bother God will go ahead and do 'extraordinary things' with you anyway?

 

[Phil 1:21]

So there is no reason why someone should avoid doing wrong things because it doesn't bother God will go ahead and do 'extraordinary things' with you anyway?

"What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!" Romans 6:1-2a

 

[Strathos]

Everyone is a sinner. God loves us anyway.

 

[Shempster]

Everyone is a sinner. God loves us anyway.

Oh, now you did it

 

[Strathos]

Oh, now you did it

What do you mean by that?

 

[ViaCrucis]

Are the prophets of God sinners and if they were prophets how come in bible they commit immoral crimes?

Shouldn't they be righteous men of example?

Yes, the prophets were sinners, because everyone is a sinner. The saints don't set an example by being sinless and perfect, the saints set an example of faith.

This is a major difference in how Christians and Muslims understand God's prophets, the Christian understanding is that God's prophets were ordinary, sinful people that God used to accomplish His purposes, because God uses ordinary, sinful people.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Godistruth1]

Yes, the prophets were sinners, because everyone is a sinner. The saints don't set an example by being sinless and perfect, the saints set an example of faith.

This is a major difference in how Christians and Muslims understand God's prophets, the Christian understanding is that God's prophets were ordinary, sinful people that God used to accomplish His purposes, because God uses ordinary, sinful people.

-CryptoLutheran

If they are not good example, why would people listen to them & follow them? We don't believe they committed sins attrutibuted to them which is another reason we believe the bible changed

 

[ViaCrucis]

If they are not good example, why would people listen to them & follow them?

Do you consider someone a good example only if they are morally perfect? I look to my parents and the example they set for me in life, even though they were far from perfect and sinless. Should I not?

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Barney2.0]

Prophets aren’t looked to as moral examples neither do we claim them to be that’s what you Muslims claim, Jesus is our only moral example as we acknowledge the prophets weren’t prefect sinless people, each had faults and was capable of singing like normal people. We merely respect them as prophets whose function was to guard the community of their time as appointed by God to lead their people out of darkness. Again no one is claiming the prophets to be ultimate role models, that’s what your saying. Mohammed had 11 wives (one of whom was a child), numerous concubines, was known to be a cross dresser, and a sex addict. sure we can both say he was acting according to his time as all prophets were, but there’s a problem since Mohammed according to you is the perfect role model to be followed.

 

[Micah888]

Shouldn't they be righteous men of example?

Of course. But how righteous was Muhammad?

 

[Strathos]

Of course. But how righteous was Muhammad?

You'll get a lot of different answers to that, depending on who you ask.

 

[cvanwey]

Are the prophets of God sinners and if they were prophets how come in bible they commit immoral crimes?

Shouldn't they be righteous men of example?

Morals are subjective. Opinions very, as will be seen on this post, and all others.... Until definitive proof is verified that the Bible was given or instructed by Yahweh, believers are themselves merely appealing to subjective human writings of long ago... I could present more, but this will do for starters...

And yes, this is the default conclusion, for the many whom might want to squabble over 'does absolute truth exist?'

 

[Godistruth1]

Morals are subjective. Opinions very, as will be seen on this post, and all others.... Until definitive proof is verified that the Bible was given or instructed by Yahweh, believers are themselves merely appealing to subjective human writings of long ago... I could present more, but this will do for starters...

And yes, this is the default conclusion, for the many whom might want to squabble over 'does absolute truth exist?'

Its ironic how holy men of God do such crimes according to bible. They are supposed to be an example since God chose them but it does not fit in mind how people who communicate directly with God with no doubt would do such things. That's makes me question the reliability of Bible.

 

[cvanwey]

Its ironic how holy men of God do such crimes according to bible. They are supposed to be an example since God chose them but it does not fit in mind how people who communicate directly with God with no doubt would do such things. That's makes me question the reliability of Bible.

It's also strangely curious... When a mother murders her child, and claims God told her to do it, as reported from the news, how does one actually know God did not tell her to do it? I mean, people claim God speaks to them every day... Who is receiving word, and who is mistaken?

Christians will state there is no way God told this mother to murder their child. This, however, is making a value judgement between 'good' and 'bad'. Which means, one is not blindly following direct orders from God, but is instead evaluating the commands coming from God. The Christian is stating they know the command was not from God, because they do not agree with the command.

Which begs the question, was it moral to follow all apparent 'harmful' commands from God, as evidence by the many verses from the Bible? If these commands were so, it is most likely these individuals did not know the actual 'higher' reason they were commanded to do as such at the time they were commanded, and yet, did so anyways. And yet, the Bible then presents these individuals as great followers of the word.

You, the master, tell your dog to attack. The dog attacks. You may have even felt justified in ordering the attack. However, the dog did not actually evaluate the command.

Which begs the ultimate dilemma:

1. Is it moral because God says so?
2. Or, is the command moral only if the recipient agrees?

Very curious indeed...

 

[Godistruth1]

It's also strangely curious... When a mother murders her child, and claims God told her to do it, as reported from the news, how does one actually know God did not tell her to do it? I mean, people claim God speaks to them every day... Who is receiving word, and who is mistaken?

If God has given us moral programming and we know killing a baby or any innocent is a crime then it can't be from God. Maybe its satan(don't know if you believe in satan) who tricks people into thinking its God ! I think we have been given mind to think that God does not do ungodly things. Either the person is crazy or is tricked by satan.

Christians will state there is no way God told this mother to murder their child. This, however, is making a value judgement between 'good' and 'bad'. Which means, one is not blindly following direct orders from God, but is instead evaluating the commands coming from God. The Christian is stating they know the command was not from God, because they do not agree with the command.

Which begs the question, was it moral to follow all apparent 'harmful' commands from God, as evidence by the many verses from the Bible? If these commands were so, it is most likely these individuals did not know the actual 'higher' reason they were commanded to do as such at the time they were commanded, and yet, did so anyways. And yet, the Bible then presents these individuals as great followers of the word.

Very curious indeed...

Lot of Christians have admitted the fact that not all the Bible is inspired by God. There is history written by people too which is subject to distortion.

 

[cvanwey]

If God has given us moral programming and we know killing a baby or any innocent is a crime then it can't be from God. Maybe its satan(don't know if you believe in satan) who tricks people into thinking its God ! I think we have been given mind to think that God does not do ungodly things. Either the person is crazy or is tricked by satan.

Lot of Christians have admitted the fact that not all the Bible is inspired by God. There is history written by people too which is subject to distortion.

Two positions 'may' be argued in defense of claimed 'objective morals' (A or B):


A) Murder is wrong because these moral's are built into humans from God - (we already know right from wrong, because we were built in god's image). This proposition does not claim humans will not murder, but that humans inherently know it's 'wrong' to murder.


(OR)


B) Murder is wrong because god says so, as ordered from the Bible.


Position A):


If murder is wrong because most agree, then there is no need for a god to instruct as such; because the knowledge is already built within us to distinguish an absolute 'right/wrong' position. But then the theist will respond stating that god still does need to instruct such a command in the Bible, to present an absolute standard, or 'objective morality'. Humans that don't agree, are then instructed that murder actually is objectively wrong.


But.....


If something like slavery is wrong, because most agree, then there is no need for a god to instruct as such; because the knowledge is already built within us to distinguish an absolute 'right/wrong' position. But then the theist will respond stating that god still does need to instruct such a command in the Bible, to present an absolute standard or 'objective morality'. Humans that don't agree, are then instructed that slavery actually is objectively wrong.


But wait....


This logic is flawed. God instructs that murder is wrong, via the sixth commandment. However, no such instruction exists for slavery. A matter of fact, many verses allow slavery, instruct how to use slavery, and also instruct how one may or may not beat human property. But nowhere does the Bible state not to own another human as property and not to beat human property.


By using the above logic...


Murder is immoral because most agree, and the Bible re-affirms the same position, making murder objectively immoral. Even though God commanded killing, which is another topic I will not discuss; as it is not necessary.


Slavery is immoral because most agree, and yet the Bible does not re-affirm the same position? (making slavery objectively moral or immoral)? If opinions mostly agree slavery is immoral, because we were built in god's image and possess god's knowledge to absolute moral values, but the Bible allows slavery and never rebukes it, this is not rational. Is slavery moral or immoral?


In conclusion, to use position A) as a basis for objective morals is illogical.


So what about position B)?:


If claimed 'objective morals' are 'absolute', because god says so, then the word 'morality' is now irrelevant. When arguing this position, it does not matter what the human thinks or feels, and simply uses the Bible to instruct 'right/wrong'. The claimed human compass carries no weight, as the human is merely following commands.


God commands not to murder. God commands how to enslave and how to beat slaves.


In conclusion, using position B), murder is wrong, because god says so, and slavery is acceptable, because god says so. Our personal justifications, positions, and arguments don't matter. Therefore, pure divine command would be the only answer and our personal thoughts or opinions have no use. If this is the case, if we don't have the Bible memorized, and we are presented with a moral dilemma, and we only have our brains to distinguish a conclusion, how might one proceed?


Either position is flawed in logic and reason.