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Against Sola Scriptura...

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GingerBeer

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Jesus is the incarnate word that comes to us through the Scripture, in accordance with the Scriptures and as the key revelation of the Scriptures.
Scripture says that faith comes from hearing (not specifically from reading a book) and hearing is hearing the word of Christ. The passage says:
Romans 10:9 You are saved, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, and, in your heart, you believe that God raised him from the dead. 10 By believing from the heart, you obtain true righteousness; by confessing the faith with your lips, you are saved. 11 For Scripture says:
No one who believes in him will be ashamed.
12 Here, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; all have the same Lord, who is very generous with whoever calls on him.13 Truly, all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. 14 But how can they call upon the name of the Lord without having believed in him? And how can they believe in him, without having first heard about him? And how will they hear about him, if no one preaches about him? 15 And how will they preach about him, if no one sends them? As Scripture says:
How beautiful are the feet of the messenger of good news.
16 Although, not everyone obeyed the good news, as Isaiah said:
Lord, who has believed in our preaching?
17 So, faith comes from preaching, and preaching is rooted in the word of Christ.​
Jesus comes to people by means of preaching. That is the core point of the message in Romans 10:9-17
 
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GingerBeer

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Perhaps being to rigorous in dividing what is the written Words of God or Written word.

Here's an interesting search of "word of God" and "word of the Lord."

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)

Also "thus saith the Lord"

Genesis 1:1 (KJV)


I think the above abundantly shows why people call the Holy Scriptures the Word of God. It is the place to go to read or hear the very words and commands of God.
Genesis 1:1? Doesn't it say "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth"?
 
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GingerBeer

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Ok, good, 'cause it's not there. So what does the idea mean to say "The Bible alone is the Word of God and the only infallible rule of faith and practice"?
We can ask the original posted what the sentence means. There's no need to try to exegete the sentence since it is not scripture it is a definition created by a poster in Christian Forums.
 
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redleghunter

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Scripture says that faith comes from hearing (not specifically from reading a book) and hearing is hearing the word of Christ. The passage says:
Romans 10:9 You are saved, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, and, in your heart, you believe that God raised him from the dead. 10 By believing from the heart, you obtain true righteousness; by confessing the faith with your lips, you are saved. 11 For Scripture says:
No one who believes in him will be ashamed.
12 Here, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; all have the same Lord, who is very generous with whoever calls on him.13 Truly, all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. 14 But how can they call upon the name of the Lord without having believed in him? And how can they believe in him, without having first heard about him? And how will they hear about him, if no one preaches about him? 15 And how will they preach about him, if no one sends them? As Scripture says:
How beautiful are the feet of the messenger of good news.
16 Although, not everyone obeyed the good news, as Isaiah said:
Lord, who has believed in our preaching?
17 So, faith comes from preaching, and preaching is rooted in the word of Christ.​
Jesus comes to people by means of preaching. That is the core point of the message in Romans 10:9-17
Indeed. Now how did you find that out? You quoted Paul's written epistle to the Romans.
 
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redleghunter

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Genesis 1:1? Doesn't it say "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth"?
Click the link please. For some reason everything linked from BLB reverts to Genesis 1.
 
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GingerBeer

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To put it in the negative, we do not believe that the OT prophets nor the NT apostles forgot to write something down that is necessary unto salvation
Are you sure about that? For example where did the prophets or the apostles write down the table of contents for the bible?

Click the link please. For some reason everything linked from BLB reverts to Genesis 1.
I clicked the link and it said "1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth."

PS: I went back to your post and clicked the first "genesis 1:1" link and it opened to a page of search results. I do not know what you think those search results do, other than list places where the KJV has "word of God" but I am confident that you will explain it to me eventually.
 
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GingerBeer

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Do you believe that God failed to inform or failed to cause either the OT prophets or NT apostles to write down something that you consider necessary to believe, such that if you failed to believe that, you will not be saved?
No, I do not believe that but what about you? Do you believe that without a fixed table of contents for your bible you'd be home and safe in salvation? The original post for this thread claims that the bible alone has everything needed for faith and practise so are you secure in salvation without the bible? Or is the bible an optional "only infallible rule of faith and practise" because if it is then you've abandoned the original post's doctrine of sola scriptura.
 
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GingerBeer

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So, did God leave something out of the 66 book of Scripture necessary for your salvation? Yes or no. And then we can move on after laying this groundwork..
Not to labour the point but it must be obvious to you and all reading this thread by now that the bible does not contain an inspired and infallible list of the books that constitute the bible.
 
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redleghunter

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GingerBeer

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If you click the links here:

Against Sola Scriptura...

They will all take you to a word search at Blue Letter Bible.
I went back to your post and clicked the first "genesis 1:1" link and it opened to a page of search results. I do not know what you think those search results do, other than list places where the KJV has "word of God" but I am confident that you will explain it to me eventually.
 
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redleghunter

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I went back to your post and clicked the first "genesis 1:1" link and it opened to a page of search results. I do not know what you think those search results do, other than list places where the KJV has "word of God" but I am confident that you will explain it to me eventually.
I believe all three searches will testify as to why people call the Holy Scriptures the Word of God.
 
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SolomonVII

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Sola Scriptura evolved as the main Protestant response against abuses of ecclesiastical authority, both real and imagined. The bottom line was that the authority of the church was no longer trusted, and rulings coming from that authority were often based as much in politics as in tradition. Sola Scriptura was the response which said what is written is the final authority rather than what the ecclesiastical classes dictate.
500 years later, judging by results, the authority of ecclesiastical classes has been pretty much usurped. The power that the ecclesiastical classes have on the imagination and the conduct of the people is now an entirely voluntary affair, and it is never more than any individual would allow it to be. If the purpose of Sola Scriptura was to destroy ecclesiastical authority, it has been successful. It is certainly one factor involved in breaking the hold of the Church over being the purveyors of truth.

Of course, the dream was not just to destroy the grasp that the Church had on authoritatively defining Truth, but to be the authoritative source of Truth itself. Since the Bible itself is an anthology, the pressing question first became by what authority were any of its books deemed to be Scripture in the first place. With truth as authority, Maccabees were among the first books to be rejected as authoritative by certain segments of the Christian population for historical innacurracies. But, without an authoritative reason for any of the books to be accepted, hyper-critical schools of Biblical exegesis were scathing in their reviews of what actually ought to be considered to be true in the first place. The Jeffersonian bible became very thin indeed, for one example.

Whether this a good thing or a bad thing, it is unquestionably a thing.

So what is the state of Biblical authority now? To answer whether Sola Scriptura is a success or failure, it is only fair to judge the concept by its fruits. Has Scripture become a better authority of what is deemed to be ultimately true than an authoritative church had been?
The text itself is wildly symbolic and metaphoric, with the same story being often told multiple times with variations of events and mood. Its truths are layered and complex. It is a work of high literature, and like all literature, it requires interpretation to even begin to reveal its truths and textual relationships, which for all purposes are as intricate and complex as the blueprint of human life itself.

For those who seek simple, hard answers to life's many problems and questions, there is just no way that you can come up with a rules for life guidebook where it is established absolutely what ought and ought not be done from Scripture alone. The rules of an authoritative Church were hard and simple like that, no fish on Fridays, no sex outside of procreative marriage, go to Church on Sundays, and go to work for the rest of the week and otherwise be a good and productive member of society.

To the extent that people have tried to develop those kinds of authoritative rules only from scripture for the rites and rituals of proper and moral conduct, a myriad of different rule books have been established. Some are kosher, some are not. Some believe in virginity, others abhor it as unnatural. Some worship Sunday, some Saturday. All these are valid interpretations that are Scripture based, and are inevitable to arise, if Scripture is the only authority.
If one wants a simple rulebook from Scriptural alone, Sola Scriptura has not been able to supply one to displace that supplied by an authoritative ecclesiastical class. Really, even if one wants a common denominator to create a bottom line of a common core belief among all Christians, Sola Scriptura has been ineffective at providing that too. The text is just too complex for all that.

On the other hand, for those who read the Bible constantly, who remain open and alert to its many permutations and combinations, and delight in its hidden connections; for those who seek the voice of God primarily in Scripture, this type of practitioner of Sola Scriptura is counted among some pretty amazing and devout Christians.
 
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GingerBeer

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I believe all three searches will testify as to why people call the Holy Scriptures the Word of God.
You do know that the KJV never uses that capitalisation; the KJV never calls scripture "the Word of God"?
 
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faroukfarouk

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Is God authoritative and infallible? As the Father, through the Son, and in the Holy Spirit? Can God, them who're in part the whole be known and understood separate from the scriptures? What about being in Christ or in the Holy Spirit, is the Church not the body and holy?

What about having Christ in our hearts accepting him as Lord and Savior, being the Son of God; and in his name come to the Father in prayer, wasn't the Holy Spirit received in faith with Jesus in spirit? Both of the Father, being of God, authoritative and infallible; so the person and God in part or whole being two, three or more being authoritative and infallible?

Didn't God exist and come before the scriptures or the Bible (certain scriptures selected and accepted before then after by the Church)? If the Church collectively and individually aren't authoritative and infallible, how can the scriptures from it be so? Isn't it God, in all or any form the infallible authority; without him none of is more than material and vain?

Above are questions I'm seriously asking, especially to the original poster and defenders of sola scriptura. Before I started reading this thread and related references I was more for sola scriptura; now as I've learned the past few days is prima scriptura, which makes more sense to me. But even that isn't without doubt as things such as mariology are strange to me, not something I know and understand much about.
Prima Scriptura: Do you mean that your reason should supposedly overrule Scripture's revelation?
 
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mark kennedy

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Scripture says that faith comes from hearing (not specifically from reading a book) and hearing is hearing the word of Christ. The passage says:
Romans 10:9 You are saved, if you confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord, and, in your heart, you believe that God raised him from the dead. 10 By believing from the heart, you obtain true righteousness; by confessing the faith with your lips, you are saved. 11 For Scripture says:
No one who believes in him will be ashamed.
12 Here, there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; all have the same Lord, who is very generous with whoever calls on him.13 Truly, all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. 14 But how can they call upon the name of the Lord without having believed in him? And how can they believe in him, without having first heard about him? And how will they hear about him, if no one preaches about him? 15 And how will they preach about him, if no one sends them? As Scripture says:
How beautiful are the feet of the messenger of good news.
16 Although, not everyone obeyed the good news, as Isaiah said:
Lord, who has believed in our preaching?
17 So, faith comes from preaching, and preaching is rooted in the word of Christ.​
Jesus comes to people by means of preaching. That is the core point of the message in Romans 10:9-17
When I see someone use such a long quote it tells me something, they see something significant in the context. The church at Rome was probably founded at Pentecost, Paul is writing to them some thirty years after they had first received the Holy Spirit. It's important to understand, the word of God was read to them, scrolls were expensive and in limited supply. There is a reason there are so many copies of the books of the New Testament, if you wanted to read Paul's letter to the Romans to your local congregation, you needed a copy. That's just a little about the background.

Paul is establishing that hearing the gospel requires more then passive hearing, you must hear and believe. Isaiah complains, 'Lord, who has believed in our preaching?'. That's from the eighth century BC, when Israel was at it's zenith, they had fallen into idolatry and God through the Levites and latter the prophets had been preaching to them for hundreds of years. Tragically, far too many had turned away from the message, even Moses complained that they were stiff necked and rebellious and always went astray in their hearts. Those that responded to Christ were sometimes pious, but most of the time it was publicans and prostitutes, sinners who were willing to repent. But there in the heart of pagan Rome was this group of Jewish believers that had received the gospel, devout, pious Jewish Christians.

The message is still to whosoever will. I never really got my theology from institutionalized teaching, mostly what I've had are the Scriptures themselves. I guess I just never questioned that the Bible is the word of God, I just never understood the introduction of that single term, 'alone'. When Jesus called the Apostles he just said, get up and follow me, and they did. I get the distinct impression that they had never met him, but all he had to do was tell them to come on and they left everything and followed him. He would pray later, Father they were yours and you gave them to me. The word of God comes to us as a revelation before we hear the gospel and the Holy Spirit is still making that revelation after we have received it. It's never alone, the Scriptures are a unique primary source for doctrine and I would never want to undermine that.

The only source of righteousness is God himself, we can listen to the word of God all day but it only heals us of our sin when we respond in faith. No self respecting farmer is going to just throw seed around carelessly, the soil has to be prepared and tended to the entire crop cycle. Then there can come the harvest, some thirty fold, some fifty, some a hundred.

Grace and peace,
Mark
 
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mark kennedy

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Genesis 1:1? Doesn't it say "In the beginning God created the heavens and the Earth"?
I'm rather curious, what exactly is the point your trying to make here? Genesis 1:1 is a stand alone text, no hyperbole intended, it is written in the most absolute terms in the Hebrew Scriptures. It is the only time the plural form of Elohim is used, sometimes refereed to as plurality of majesty. I'm just wondering why you brought up that text.
 
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GingerBeer

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When I see someone use such a long quote it tells me something, they see something significant in the context. The church at Rome was probably founded at Pentecost, Paul is writing to them some thirty years after they had first received the Holy Spirit.
Paul's letter to the Romans was probably written in the 50s AD and Pentecost was likely around 30 to 33 AD. That would be 20 years give or take a few years.
 
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mark kennedy

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Paul's letter to the Romans was probably written in the 50s AD and Pentecost was likely around 30 to 33 AD. That would be 20 years give or take a few years.
Estimates vary but most of the New Testament was written between 60 AD and 70 AD. Romans seems like it was one of the earlier books so that sounds about right.
 
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