Isaiah 53 prophecy. Is it about Jesus?

[Athée]

Yes, I believe Isaiah 53 , which was written 700 years before Christ, alludes to Jesus in Messianic prophesy. I also know an abudance of Jewish people who have studied it in depth that also believe it alludes to Christ. Most became Messianic Christians in response although some were not willing to suffer the rejection that comes with that decision. There is more than just Isaiah 53 though and many Messianic Jews show a wealth of Scripture that points to Jesus. How about Psalm 22 for instance?
The Suffering, Praise, and Posterity of the Messiah
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David.
Ps 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.


Ps 22:7-8 All those who see Me ridicule Me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

Ps 22:14-15 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.


It seems that much of Psalm 22, as well as other prophesies give us a clear picture of our crucified Lord.
In Christ, Patrick

Hey Patrick

Thanks for your thoughts. I really want to stick to Isaiah 53 in this thread just to keep things focused but your point is well taken, there are certainly other passages that we could be looking at.

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes, I believe Isaiah 53 , which was written 700 years before Christ, alludes to Jesus in Messianic prophesy. I also know an abudance of Jewish people who have studied it in depth that also believe it alludes to Christ. Most became Messianic Christians in response although some were not willing to suffer the rejection that comes with that decision. There is more than just Isaiah 53 though and many Messianic Jews show a wealth of Scripture that points to Jesus. How about Psalm 22 for instance?
The Suffering, Praise, and Posterity of the Messiah
To the Chief Musician. Set to “The Deer of the Dawn.” A Psalm of David.
Ps 22:1 My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?

6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised by the people.


Ps 22:7-8 All those who see Me ridicule Me; they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, “He trusted in the LORD, let Him rescue Him; Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

Ps 22:14-15 I am poured out like water, And all My bones are out of joint; My heart is like wax; It has melted within Me. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd, And My tongue clings to My jaws; You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me; The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced My hands and My feet; 17 I can count all My bones. They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.


It seems that much of Psalm 22, as well as other prophesies give us a clear picture of our crucified Lord.
In Christ, Patrick

What's strange to me, as a follower of Judaism, is that Pslam 22 is seen as a prophecy at all. I see nothing in the language to indicate as such. I also have some doubts about this abundance of Jewish people converting simply due to Isaiah 53. First, we make up less than one percent of the world population. We lose far more to atheism than Christianity.

Danny pointed out before but there is also great debate over verse 16, as the Hebrew supports "like a lion at my hands and feet" with no mention of piercing. There are also no capital letters in Hebrew, so I find any translation inserting them for he and him to be...well... skewing things a bit.

 

[Athée]

What's strange to me, as a follower of Judaism, is that Pslam 22 is seen as a prophecy at all. I see nothing in the language to indicate as such. I also have some doubts about this abundance of Jewish people converting simply due to Isaiah 53. First, we make up less than one percent of the world population. We lose far more to atheism than Christianity.

Danny pointed out before but there is also great debate over verse 16, as the Hebrew supports "like a lion at my hands and feet" with no mention of piercing. There are also no capital letters in Hebrew, so I find any translation inserting them for he and him to be...well... skewing things a bit.

I agree but as I said to Patrick, I would like, of possible to stick with the Isaiah passage for this thread

 

[LoAmmi]

I agree but as I said to Patrick, I would like, of possible to stick with the Isaiah passage for this thread

I would say that it is difficult to only stick to Isaiah for the simple reason that we must take in the entire Tanakh to get a full picture for what Isaiah is saying. What you find in the prophets, repeatedly, is the people of Israel being redeemed, gathered, and ultimately shown to have been correct to keep loyal to HaShem despite all the hardships that were suffered. It's a theme that one cannot help but see if they read it all. It's actually a hyper-focus on Isaiah 53 that can harm people. ESPECIALLY considering that chapters and verses are an invention of the Middle Ages. Isaiah (or the author or whatever) did not write "Isaiah 53".

 

[Athée]

I would say that it is difficult to only stick to Isaiah for the simple reason that we must take in the entire Tanakh to get a full picture for what Isaiah is saying. What you find in the prophets, repeatedly, is the people of Israel being redeemed, gathered, and ultimately shown to have been correct to keep loyal to HaShem despite all the hardships that were suffered. It's a theme that one cannot help but see if they read it all. It's actually a hyper-focus on Isaiah 53 that can harm people. ESPECIALLY considering that chapters and verses are an invention of the Middle Ages. Isaiah (or the author or whatever) did not write "Isaiah 53".

That's a good point and one that 2PV is making as well in a different way. I guess what I meant was that we try to keep the focus pointed at the portion of Isaiah I was asking about in this thread. If other passages are relevant to this discussion obviously they need to be included but for someone like me who is coming to this without any expertise it would be helpful if you could make the connection to the Isaiah discussion super clear for me, I am easily confused...

 

[LoAmmi]

That's a good point and one that 2PV is making as well in a different way. I guess what I meant was that we try to keep the focus pointed at the portion of Isaiah I was asking about in this thread. If other passages are relevant to this discussion obviously they need to be included but for someone like me who is coming to this without any expertise it would be helpful if you could make the connection to the Isaiah discussion super clear for me, I am easily confused...

Want a really weird thing in Isaiah 53? Look at verse 9 here: http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/isa53.pdf

See how deaths is plural? It's the only place that Hebrew word appears in the Tanakh, so it's not easy look for meaning anywhere else, as the grammer (if I recall) is singular. So it would be a singular subject experiencing multiple deaths.

 

[John 1720]

What's strange to me, as a follower of Judaism, is that Pslam 22 is seen as a prophecy at all. I see nothing in the language to indicate as such. I also have some doubts about this abundance of Jewish people converting simply due to Isaiah 53. First, we make up less than one percent of the world population. We lose far more to atheism than Christianity.

Danny pointed out before but there is also great debate over verse 16, as the Hebrew supports "like a lion at my hands and feet" with no mention of piercing. There are also no capital letters in Hebrew, so I find any translation inserting them for he and him to be...well... skewing things a bit.

Hello LoAmmi,
Well I did agree with Athee, which pretty much gives my word, that I will keep my responses on this thread's focused on Isaiah 53. I did have another thread, however, that you may want to respond to, by way of cut and paste, that may be more appropriate for you. I'll copy my last post on Isaiah 53 there for context.

• Do you have any regard or belief in Messianic prophesy?

Other than that I think it's okay to answer your doubts as to the abundance of my Jewish friends and acquaintances that have been swayed by Isaiah 53, as well as other passages. Many of my Jewish friends happen to be Messianic believers. I have also attended several discovery Bible studies with non-believers of Yeshua as Messiah as well. They simply only wanted to understand the New Testament in light of the Old Testament. Some, however, did come to faith on their own afterwards (actually faith is always an act between reason, conscience and God). Other than that most of my Jewish friends and acquaintance have been from the workplace, or coaches, or parents of my children's friends. So my statistics are simply personal sir.

In Christ, Patrick

 

[Tinker Grey]

What's strange to me, as a follower of Judaism, is that Pslam 22 is seen as a prophecy at all. I see nothing in the language to indicate as such. I also have some doubts about this abundance of Jewish people converting simply due to Isaiah 53. First, we make up less than one percent of the world population. We lose far more to atheism than Christianity.

{Emphasis added.}

So much this. Even when I was a Christian, I dismissed this passage as a prophecy.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

{Emphasis added.}

So much this. Even when I was a Christian, I dismissed this passage as a prophecy.

That's understandable, really. But, I'd like to suggest that at least some part of our lack of understanding comes in expecting "prophecy" to surely and *only* be presented to us in concrete, ipso facto, linearly predictive statements, much as science has produced from the time of the Greeks up to Now.

The problem with this is, as I keep hinting over and over again here, that this kind of expectation typically ignores taking the bible in a more wholistic fashion and paying attention to its strange patterns of interweaving and intertextualized referencing for context. In sum, this means we ignore such things as the epistemic indices within the Bible that should alert us to the fact that, as with fire, we're playing with something that meets more than the human eye when reading it.

Just something to think about for those not so inclined to bring robust hermenetuics into the landscape of biblical considerations when reading a passage like we find in Isaiah 53.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

 

[LoAmmi]

That's understandable, really. But, I'd like to suggest that at least some part of our lack of understanding comes in expecting "prophecy" to surely and *only* be presented to us in concrete, ipso facto, linearly predictive statements, much as science from the Greeks to Now would expect a scientific prediction to be.

The problem with that is, as I keep hinting over and over again here, is that this kind of expectation typically ignores taking the bible in a more wholistic fashion and paying attention to its strange patterns of interweaving and intertextualized referencing for context. In sum, this means we ignore such things as the epistemic indices within the Bible that should alert us to the fact that, as with fire, we're playing with something that meets more than the human eye when reading it.

Just something to think about for those not so inclined to bring in robust hermenetuics into the landscape of biblical considerations when reading a passage like we find in Isaiah 53.

Peace,
2PhiloVoid

How do you know where to stop though? I brought it up before, but once something is vague enough, it holds no real meaning. You're taking turpentine to an oil painting and mixing all the colors together until you can no longer see the happy bush and just see a bunch of green. It no longer is a landscape, it's a bunch of colors on a canvas.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

How do you know where to stop though? I brought it up before, but once something is vague enough, it holds no real meaning. You're taking turpentine to an oil painting and mixing all the colors together until you can no longer see the happy bush and just see a bunch of green. It no longer is a landscape, it's a bunch of colors on a canvas.

Well, here's the thing. If I'm suggesting that we consider hermeneutics, then that suggestion implies not only knowing where to stop, but also where to begin. And if we can say that we should have at least a hueristic (but hopefully something approximating an actual method, or even better two, or three methods) as to where to begin with Scripture, then we can likely also say that we can have a heuristic that helps us to be aware of when to either stop or to be very cautious when handling the text. So, if I'm talking hermeneutically, where might be begin, although not necessarily end, with our attempts to interpret Isaiah 53 along with similarly obscure passages that Jews, Christians and Messianic Jews think have import?

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, here's the thing. If I'm suggesting that we consider hermeneutics, then that suggestion implies not only knowing where to stop, but also where to begin. And if we can say that we should have at least a hueristic (but hopefully something approximating an actual method, or even better two, or three methods) as to where to begin with Scripture, then we can likely also say that we can have a heuristic that helps us to be aware of when to either stop or to be very cautious when handling the text. So, if I'm talking hermeneutically, where might be begin, although not necessarily end, with our attempts to interpret Isaiah 53 (or similarly obscure passages that Christians and Messianic Jews think have import...)?

I'd say the rest of the text, however, you and I have run into our first major wall with that, in that you have ~30% more Bible than I do.

...and now I can't help but picture that as an infomercial.

"Christianity: Now With 30% More Bible!"

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I'd say the rest of the text, however, you and I have run into our first major wall with that, in that you have ~30% more Bible than I do.

...and now I can't help but picture that as an infomercial.

"Christianity: Now With 30% More Bible!"

Well, you might think that is an infomercial, but being that there really isn't an exact place to start with Scripture, I'd say that beginning FIRST, but not ending, with Ancient Jewish Hermeneutical considerations, such as those offered by Hillel, would be one of the first Bus Stops on the way to making our rounds on the Hermeneutical Circle (or spiral, really). See, you thought I was going to say "Paul" or something, didn't you? No, that comes later.

 

[LoAmmi]

Well, you might think that is an infomercial, but being that there really isn't an exact place to start with Scripture, I'd say that beginning FIRST, but not ending, with Ancient Jewish Hermeneutical considerations, such as those offered by Hillel, would be one of the first Bus Stops on the way to making our rounds on the Hermeneutical Circle (or spiral, really). See, thought I was going to say "Paul" or something, didn't you? No, that comes later.

Perhaps, but you'll quickly run into oddities of Judaism where rabbis expand on stories in a way to teach a lesson not impart historical knowledge. We're quirky.

So sometimes it's hard to tell what is what when it comes to that. I personally have a pretty strong skepticism of everything.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Perhaps, but you'll quickly run into oddities of Judaism where rabbis expand on stories in a way to teach a lesson not impart historical knowledge. We're quirky.

Yes, I know.

So sometimes it's hard to tell what is what when it comes to that. I personally have a pretty strong skepticism of everything.

...well, if you like running with your shoe-laces tied together (as is done in any really robust "skepticism"), then be my guest. And I suppose I'll bring the ointment and some gauze to you when you fall down and get a boo-boo on your knee.

 

[LoAmmi]

Yes, I know.



...well, if you like running with your shoe-laces tied together (as is done in any really robust "skepticism"), then be my guest. And I suppose I'll bring the ointment and some gauze to you when you fall down and get a boo-boo on your knee.

What do you mean? I am not a fan of just accepting things. I don't even fully just accept the Bible. For example, all the evidence points to the Earth being very old and formed in a way not described in Genesis. It doesn't mean that I think Genesis is a lie, but that it contains truth just not fact. It is not a science book.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

What do you mean? I am not a fan of just accepting things. I don't even fully just accept the Bible. For example, all the evidence points to the Earth being very old and formed in a way not described in Genesis. It doesn't mean that I think Genesis is a lie, but that it contains truth just not fact. It is not a science book.

Where have I heard that before?

 

[LoAmmi]

Where have I heard that before?

..... I have no way of answering that question.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

..... I have no way of answering that question.

It was meant as humor. You haven't been around here enough to know me yet. The answer to my question is: me. ........so, it means we're in basic agreement as to the nature of the earlier portions of Genesis.

 

[LoAmmi]

It was meant as humor. You haven't been around here enough to know me yet. The answer to my question is: me. ........so, it means we're in basic agreement as to the nature of the earlier portions of Genesis.

Got it. Good. I don't know how to debate people who think that it should be a science book and all that.