THE SOUL: What is it?

AnticipateHisComing

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"The spirit returns to God who gave it" Eccl 12:7 -- heaven with God
Would you quote the next sentence in your text?
8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless!”​

The Bible is true, but not everything in the Bible is true.
Much of the book of Ecclesiastes are "Meaningless" sayings.
It teaches the futility of human logic and reason. It calls them meaningless.
It does this for the purpose of illustration. It shows the "wise" sayings of the world and compares them to a greater wisdom and knowledge of God. It does this to teach what is wrong in the world, not what is right.

13 Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind.
14 For God will bring every deed into judgment,
including every hidden thing,
whether it is good or evil.
Your quoted text is part of the meaningless comment, so it can not be trusted to be an accurate telling of the physical and spiritual life in a person.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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No translation in English supports your view.

As you present it, I think the dude dying next to Jesus knew it was today and since he and Jesus were bleeding and suffocating together, Jesus was not going to tell him another day other than "today."

It makes absolutely no sense in any language.
There was no punctuation in the original text. I use the example of a phone text where people leave out punctuation.

My text to a friend.
What do you say today let's do lunch.​

Only an intellectually challenged person would respond with,
Sounds great, what day do you want to do lunch?​
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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It was a story, it was not true, Jesus had a point to make to them of that time, and he did, even when they didn't understand it the point was made.
You are definitely a small minority of Christians to think that Jesus dying words to a suffering criminal was just a story and not true. I wonder what strong proof you have to contradict Jesus simple and exact words.
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
These words are not exact. They represent a deist's view of life and death. The author of them says they are meaningless in the very next sentence.

8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless!”
 
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AnticipateHisComing

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Rotherham Emphasized Bible
Concordant Literal Version
The Scriptures 2009

Here's some reasons the comma should be after "Today"

(1) The Greek grammar is much more correct.
(2) This took place while Christ was on the cross. In 2Cor 12:2-4, it indicates that paradise was then in the 3rd Heaven. So, do you really think that Christ died that day, went immediately to the 3rd heaven to see this guy, and then returned?
(3) I say unto you today, ....., is an idiom. We use the same idiom, which always denotes a time, and follows the time with a comma and then with what you want the person to know. For example, "I'm telling you right now, you better be good at the party."
(4) I have a list of 42 times this idiom appears in Deuteronomy, in different forms, starting with 4:26, 39, 40
(5) As it is in the KJV, it says that the thief didn't need to wait for the resurrection.
(6) No where else in the Bible does it say that we immediately go to heaven or paradise when we die. Comforting, but not true. Everyone that died, except Christ, is still in the grave waiting for the resurrection.
(7) Paradise is associated with the New Earth, New Jerusalem, and the tree of life,i in Rev 2 and Rev 22. The thief believed in Christ, but he was a Gentile with no calling, as were all non-proselyte Gentiles, from Gen 12 through Acts 9. That means he will end up on the New Earth. Christ will be with the thief in paradise, but that's still a long time in the future.

What I've given is not 100% proof that the comma is in the wrong place, but it is about 99.9% proof.

No one has EVER gone to Heaven immediately upon their death. That's a total myth taught by denominational preachers. The sheep love to hear stuff like that. Except for Jesus Christ, everyone that has died is still in the grave. Only Christ has been resurrected. There will be 4 massive resurrections. It's very comforting to tell people their dead loved ones are in Heaven with Jesus but it's a total lie.
You say, "It's very comforting to tell people their dead loved ones are in Heaven with Jesus but it's a total lie."

Sure, and you totally miss out what is to be learned from both Moses and Elijah appearing with Jesus at his transfiguration.
 
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redleghunter

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There was no punctuation in the original text. I use the example of a phone text where people leave out punctuation.

My text to a friend.
What do you say today let's do lunch.​

Only an intellectually challenged person would respond with,
Sounds great, what day do you want to do lunch?​
Or a text which says:

"Today I say let's do lunch."

Well of course it is today.
 
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redleghunter

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These words are not exact. They represent a deist's view of life and death. The author of them says they are meaningless in the very next sentence.

8 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.
“Everything is meaningless!”
One of the reasons I posted the verse was to show the futility of isolating one verse from a poetic book to establish a theology.
 
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redleghunter

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They represent a deist's view of life and death. The author of them says they are meaningless in the very next sentence.
That's a good point. Frankly I did not consider modern deist notions of the afterlife on a Christian only portion of the forum. It very well could be there are some Unitarian influences on proclaimed Christian denominations.

The entire soul sleep seen here is of JW origin.
 
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redleghunter

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There was no punctuation in the original text.
Yes I pointed that out in a previous post.

καὶ [And] εἶπεν [he said] αὐτῷ [to him] Ἀμήν [Truly] σοι [to you] λέγω [I say] σήμερον [today] μετ [with] ἐμοῦ [me] ἔσῃ [you will be] ἐν [in] τῷ [the] Παραδείσῳ [Paradise]

“Truly to you I say today with me you will be in Paradise.”

Which we don't speak like Yoda in the English and why the vast majority of modern translators got it right with:

And he said to him, “Truly I say to you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (LEB)

The Lexham English Bible is probably the most literal word for word translation.
 
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Monna

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Show me a mass (can't be individuals) resurrection in scripture that's occurred?

Let's try Matthew 27:50-54
Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.

And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

o_O "masses" are made up of individuals. There can't be a mass resurrection without individual resurrections. Or did you mean to point out that all 'scriptural' resurrections involved only one person at a time? How "many" constitute a "mass?" ;)

Or do you not accept Matthew 27 as part of scripture perhaps?
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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I believe in salvation... and in the resurrection of the body. Those bodies will have life and thus soul, but like I said, I don't believe in the soul as a "thing" in itself.

If that makes sense?

Btw are you in favor of soul sleep then?
If we need a body to exist then logic dictates no human is with God in heaven but the Mother of God, Enouch and Elijah and perhaps Moses?

(Sorry for all the questions, but my curiousity is hard to tune out lol)
 
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JohnRabbit

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The context actually shows two men perishing in the flesh about to die. Their last day. Then why the emphasis on "today" if it was the last day? What other day was Jesus going to tell him this information?

Again, which English translation supports your claim?
Jesus just simply expressed on that day that the man would be in the paradise to come!

really simple stuff, once put into context!
 
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JohnRabbit

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Yet we have this:

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Which corresponds with:

2 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


And,

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24).
so are you saying that man doesn't have the same type of life as the animals?
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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Jesus just simply expressed on that day that the man would be in the paradise to come!

really simple stuff, once put into context!

Lol, very simple...
couch theologians always amuses me ;)
 
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JohnRabbit

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You left out an important part of the breath of life received by mankind. Mankind was created in the Image and according to the likeness of God. The animals created previously were not.

God did not blow oxygen in the nostrils of Adam, but His very life giving image and likeness. God is Spirit.

Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Body is in orange above. Which returns to the dust.

Soul/spirit is what God gave us to be in His image and according to His likeness. That is in blue above.

Notice the "and" in the text. Shows two different actions and both completed by our Creator. He formed the physical structure and then breathed in His image and likeness. God is Spirit.

Which brings us to this again:

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)
however the bible gives us context:

Genesis 7:15(NKJV)
15And they went into the ark to Noah, two by two, of all flesh in which is the breath of life.

the breath of life is in all flesh!

so this feat you describe would have to extend to the animals and we simply don't see that at all!

remember, the scripture says 'what advantage does man have over the beast', speaking of man's existence. and the bible says that man has none!

they have the same temporary physio-chemical existence.
 
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JohnRabbit

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Yet we have this:

then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it. (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

Which corresponds with:

2 Corinthians 5 New King James Version (NKJV)

5 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.

6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


And,

“For to me, to live is Christ, and to die is gain. But if I live on in the flesh, this will mean fruit from my labor; yet what I shall choose I cannot tell. For I am hard-pressed between the two, having a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. Nevertheless to remain in the flesh is more needful for you” (Philippians 1:21-24).
and we have the fact that man dies and unless God gives life to the dead they won't live again!

that is right according to romans 4:17, correct?
 
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JohnRabbit

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Just provides evidence the Bible reveals blood supplies oxygen for us to breathe.

Yet this is oxygen to live on planet earth. God did not breathe the breath of life directly into each animal. He did so in His creation which is in His image and according to His likeness.

Not everywhere you see nephesh does it mean breathing air synonymous to life. In fact "naphach" is used in Genesis 2:7 to show God is directly doing it.
for it is the life of all flesh. Its blood sustains its life

for the life of all flesh is its blood

it's plain as day!

so if you want to keep trying to give man an advantage over the animals, as far as his existence is concerned, then you are totally welcome to go against what is written in scripture.
 
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JohnRabbit

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What makes you think the spirit is not alive?
because man is flesh not spirit and we have context!

let's go to the "video tape" :oldthumbsup:

God is a spirit!

remember paul said "There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body."

then he explained:


1 Corinthians 15:46(NKJV)
46However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

everyone on this earth has a "natural body"!

do you know anyone who has a "spiritual body" on this earth?


i don't!
 
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