JW Questions I have for a Jehovah's Witness about Prophecy and the WTS materials.

The7thColporteur

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The7th...

And I did address those questions, in the reply that you've completely ignored.
Ratiocination, do you really think that this is an answer to my question in regards "common", when you stated, "... As far as I’m aware it’s to do with an era of common men. I read somewhere once it was also called the “vulgar” age also. I do not know when the org started using this system. I think the system came about in the 1700's but can't be sure. ..." [1]

If you really think that answered my question in regards "common", we can move on to the next question.

The second part of the response, I will accept. An "I do not know ..." is perfectly fine, though I would encourage you/any to always look deeper.
 
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The7thColporteur

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So if you want the date of the creation of the physical universe, then I wasn’t there, so I’d be guessing!...

... It's because of this fact that I don't put much importance into the age of the Earth, to me it could very well be billions of years old, it makes no difference to the message from God.

Regards
Follow up question:

How long will it take JEHOVAH to re-create you and the New Heaven and New Earth?
 
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The7thColporteur

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And usually in a teaching environment you get to ask questions of your students to see if they have grasped the point.

How much would you like to pay me for my time here?
I own nothing, I have instead been bought with such a price, and not with corruptible things, as gold and silver, but if you are looking for such,

"... Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. ..."​

This is JEHOVAH's world.

Haggai 2:8 KJB - The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
Ask the LORD for remuneration if so inclined, I am following a different principle:

Matthew 10:8 KJB - Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.​

For instance, I gave you my entire work on Michael and Daniel and Revelation, for free.
 
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Ratiocination

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Ratiocination, do you really think that this is an answer to my question in regards "common", when you stated, "... As far as I’m aware it’s to do with an era of common men. I read somewhere once it was also called the “vulgar” age also. I do not know when the org started using this system. I think the system came about in the 1700's but can't be sure. ..." [1]

If you really think that answered my question in regards "common", we can move on to the next question.

The second part of the response, I will accept. An "I do not know ..." is perfectly fine, though I would encourage you/any to always look deeper.
If you really think that I should be expected to have a knowledge of dating systems NOT invented by JW's and the meaning of words like "common" in their usage, then this will become a very long conversation. Ask some relevant questions in future, give me a reason to look deeper. BTW just in case the question comes up in future; I also don't know why Wednesday was chosen for the middle of the week! Just saying!
 
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Ratiocination

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I own nothing, I have instead been bought with such a price, and not with corruptible things, as gold and silver, but if you are looking for such,

"... Silver and gold have I none; but such as I have give I thee: In the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth rise up and walk. ..."​

This is JEHOVAH's world.

Haggai 2:8 KJB - The silver is mine, and the gold is mine, saith the LORD of hosts.
Ask the LORD for remuneration if so inclined, I am following a different principle:

Matthew 10:8 KJB - Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.​

For instance, I gave you my entire work on Michael and Daniel and Revelation, for free.
So give me answers to questions then... What's so scary about discourse with JW's that you shy away?
 
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Ratiocination

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Follow up question:

How long will it take JEHOVAH to re-create you and the New Heaven and New Earth?
An instant of time if he so chose... or billions of years if he so chose! "He could do A, therefore he did do A" are not very good arguments.
 
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The7thColporteur

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If you really think that I should be expected to have a knowledge of dating systems NOT invented by JW's and the meaning of words like "common" in their usage, then this will become a very long conversation. Ask some relevant questions in future, give me a reason to look deeper. BTW just in case the question comes up in future; I also don't know why Wednesday was chosen for the middle of the week! Just saying!
As stated, I will accept an "I do not know."
 
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The7thColporteur

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An instant of time if he so chose... or billions of years if he so chose! "He could do A, therefore he did do A" are not very good arguments.
Follow up question:

Are we still in Day 6 "era", Day 7 "era" or another Day "era" after Day 7 "era" from Genesis 1?
 
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Ratiocination

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Follow up question:

Are we still in Day 6 "era", Day 7 "era" or another Day "era" after Day 7 "era" from Genesis 1?
Well, since the first 6 days refer to creation explicitly, and no such creation of that kind has happened since, I would say the 7th Day continues.
 
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The7thColporteur

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Well, since the first 6 days refer to creation explicitly, and no such creation of that kind has happened since, I would say the 7th Day continues.
Follow up question:

Are the Days 1-6 "eras" of Genesis 1 of equal length or differing lengths of time?
 
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The7thColporteur

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I don't know. They could be either.
Follow up question:

In the NWT, where is the first textual mention of a normal 24hr day with 12 hours in the daylight time, 12 hours in the nighttime?
 
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Ratiocination

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Follow up question:

In the NWT, where is the first textual mention of a normal 24hr day with 12 hours in the daylight time, 12 hours in the nighttime?
Do you literally mean a day that lands on or near to the spring or autumn equinox?
Or a simple reference like "see you tomorrow"?
Maybe Genesis 3:8, which has Jehovah walking in the breezy part of the day? But this is really a reference to a part of the daylight portion of the day I would guess as Adam and Eve are awake!
You could say that Genesis 1:3-5 gives the first definition of a Day in the ordinary sense by begining to make a division between light and dark. But whether this work was fully complete before other periods of time began is debatable as the work is only said to "begin" in the first day. My speculation is that the light became gradually more defined as the other epochs unfolded, until the actual luminaries could be seen from the surface.
Not 100% sure I can't answer your question without further clarification.
 
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The7thColporteur

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Do you literally mean a day that lands on or near to the spring or autumn equinox?
Or a simple reference like "see you tomorrow"?
Maybe Genesis 3:8, which has Jehovah walking in the breezy part of the day? But this is really a reference to a part of the daylight portion of the day I would guess as Adam and Eve are awake!
You could say that Genesis 1:3-5 gives the first definition of a Day in the ordinary sense by begining to make a division between light and dark. But whether this work was fully complete before other periods of time began is debatable as the work is only said to "begin" in the first day. My speculation is that the light became gradually more defined as the other epochs unfolded, until the actual luminaries could be seen from the surface.
Not 100% sure I can't answer your question without further clarification.
Follow up question:

What is the NWT textual evidence that is cited that would teach that the "days" of Genesis 1 are not 24 hour periods of time, each with a 12 hour daylight time and 12 hour nighttime?
 
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Ratiocination

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Follow up question:

What is the NWT textual evidence that is cited that would teach that the "days" of Genesis 1 are not 24 hour periods of time, each with a 12 hour daylight time and 12 hour nighttime?
If you mean "where is the Bible verse/s that states explicitly that the Days in Genesis 1 are not literal...?" Then to my knowledge there are none.
Maybe you should answer this question as well... Where is there ANY textual reference that the use of the word "day" is being used in a non-literal sense ANYWHERE in the scriptures? I mean ANYTIME the word is used non-literally it's not pointed out explicitly by a covering verse someplace else! You are expected to gain the usage/meaning of its usage from the context.
The context in Genesis 1 is creation, not a beech trailer holiday!
Take day 6 for example. Here all the mammals are created, then Adam, Adam names all the animals and Eve is created (assuming you realise that chapter 2 gives more detail of day 6). This day has a whole bunch of statements going on that simply couldn't happen in just one 24hour period. Finally Adam exclaims "at last" when his future wife is created! The is called context, this is why we understand the Day references are not literal, but epochs or eras of time, any other meaning and it makes a mockery of the scriptures!
 
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The7thColporteur

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If you mean "where is the Bible verse/s that states explicitly that the Days in Genesis 1 are not literal...?" Then to my knowledge there are none.
Maybe you should answer this question as well... Where is there ANY textual reference that the use of the word "day" is being used in a non-literal sense ANYWHERE in the scriptures? I mean ANYTIME the word is used non-literally it's not pointed out explicitly by a covering verse someplace else! You are expected to gain the usage/meaning of its usage from the context.
The context in Genesis 1 is creation, not a beech trailer holiday!
Take day 6 for example. Here all the mammals are created, then Adam, Adam names all the animals and Eve is created (assuming you realise that chapter 2 gives more detail of day 6). This day has a whole bunch of statements going on that simply couldn't happen in just one 24hour period. Finally Adam exclaims "at last" when his future wife is created! The is called context, this is why we understand the Day references are not literal, but epochs or eras of time, any other meaning and it makes a mockery of the scriptures!
Follow up question [a little more detailed this time]:

The WTS website JW [org] utilizes Psalms 90:4 in combination with the account of Genesis, saying "... Evidently, these “days” of creation lasted many thousands of years. - Psalms 90:4." [1], and "... Length of the six days of creation. Some creationists assert that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour days. But the word “day” in the Bible can refer to a considerable length of time.—Genesis 2:4; Psalm 90:4.

Age of the earth. Some creationists teach that the earth is just a few thousand years old. However, according to the Bible, the earth and the universe existed before the six days of creation. (Genesis 1:1) For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old. ..." - [2], and the NWT Psalm 90:4, says, "For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,fJust as a watch during the night." [3], wherein the note "f", cites the NWT 2 Peter 3:8, "8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." - [4]​

The WTS, in citing Psalm 90:4, related to 2 Peter 3:8, states that "one day" is "as a thousand years" applies to the "length of the six days of creation" of Genesis 1.

Can you show me where the evidence provided by the WTS from the NWT in stating that the "one day" is longer than "a [singular] thousand [singular, not plural, not thousands, millions, billions] years [Hebrew, H8141, "שׁנים" [shâneh], "years"; "Koine Greek, G2094, "ετη", [etos], "years"]" and if not, is it still possible that the days of Genesis 1 are actually literally 24 hour consecutive days of a normal/standard week, seeing as the WTS utilizes the words "may be", rather than words of certainty in regards "billions" in regards secular science results?

What I am asking about, is that you seem to allow for the possibility that the days of Genesis 1 could be normal 24 hour consecutive days like any standard week, when you had stated in an earlier reply in regards the New Creation of the New Heaven and New Earth, that it could be "An instant of time if he so chose..." - [1], which allows for much less than "billions", and certainly less than "thousand".


A secondary personal question, If I offered to you irrefutable scientific evidence that dinosaurs and mankind lived together in the recent past, and that there is fresh bone, blood, dna, and tissue being discovered even now, would you consider a video presentation on such? if no, I will move to my next question.
 
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Ratiocination

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Follow up question [a little more detailed this time]:

The WTS website JW [org] utilizes Psalms 90:4 in combination with the account of Genesis, saying "... Evidently, these “days” of creation lasted many thousands of years. - Psalms 90:4." [1], and "... Length of the six days of creation. Some creationists assert that the six days of creation were literal 24-hour days. But the word “day” in the Bible can refer to a considerable length of time.—Genesis 2:4; Psalm 90:4.

Age of the earth. Some creationists teach that the earth is just a few thousand years old. However, according to the Bible, the earth and the universe existed before the six days of creation. (Genesis 1:1) For that reason, Jehovah’s Witnesses have no objection to credible scientific research that indicates the earth may be billions of years old. ..." - [2], and the NWT Psalm 90:4, says, "For a thousand years are in your eyes just as yesterday when it is past,fJust as a watch during the night." [3], wherein the note "f", cites the NWT 2 Peter 3:8, "8 However, do not let this escape your notice, beloved ones, that one day is with Jehovah as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day." - [4]​

The WTS, in citing Psalm 90:4, related to 2 Peter 3:8, states that "one day" is "as a thousand years" applies to the "length of the six days of creation" of Genesis 1.

Can you show me where the evidence provided by the WTS from the NWT in stating that the "one day" is longer than "a [singular] thousand [singular, not plural, not thousands, millions, billions] years [Hebrew, H8141, "שׁנים" [shâneh], "years"; "Koine Greek, G2094, "ετη", [etos], "years"]" and if not, is it still possible that the days of Genesis 1 are actually literally 24 hour consecutive days of a normal/standard week, seeing as the WTS utilizes the words "may be", rather than words of certainty in regards "billions" in regards secular science results?

In Psalms 90:4 it also says that 1000 years is as the "watch of the night". So here the Bible also says that 1000 years covers a period of just 4 hours in Jehovah's mind! (Written at the time of Moses hence the older 3 watch system)
So some quick math...
24 hours in effect = 6 night watches @ 4 hours each. Total = Creative Day @ 6000 years each.
Or keeping 24 hours restricted to 3 night watches as it naturally occurs;
24 hours = 3 night watches @ 4 hours each. Total = Creative Day @ 3000 years each.

The above math just shows that a Day can be many 1000's of years according to Psalm, I realize this isn't what you believe.

The society is simply pointing out that the periods of time are not specific, and could be many thousands, if not billions of years.

So it seems likely that Psalm 90:4 is just showing the other uses of the word Day? And here I would also insert the idea that the Bible is not the source of language, it is subject to it. So to go looking for definitions of words and confine them in the scriptures is not always warranted, and could lead to some very obscure definitions, and also into ideas that are never meant.

What I am asking about, is that you seem to allow for the possibility that the days of Genesis 1 could be normal 24 hour consecutive days like any standard week, when you had stated in an earlier reply in regards the New Creation of the New Heaven and New Earth, that it could be
"An instant of time if he so chose..." - [1], which allows for much less than "billions", and certainly less than "thousand".

The difference is that in Genesis we have a bunch of specific ideas being presented like trees growing and producing seed, Adam naming the animals etc etc. To simply throw in the statement "new heavens and new earth" and assert that the same ideas are present is not warranted. I don't agree that a literal understanding of 2Peter 3:13 is intended, there's nothing wrong with what we have here now, the only problem is the rebellious human society that lives here now.

In short we are not that concerned with the actual amount of time involved, we care more that there was an act of creation. You'll find a mix of different ideas within the Organization, although I don't think there would be too many who believe in the 24 hour modal based on the expectations of a human being (Adam) to carry out all that work in such a short time. ""AT LAST" I have company in the form of a mate", is a strange statement to make if you've only just been created yourself. The idea needed to build up within his heart for quite some time prior to that exclaimation, and no doubt many many years of seeing the animals with there mates contributed to his happiness at first seeing Eve.

A secondary personal question, If I offered to you irrefutable scientific evidence that dinosaurs and mankind lived together in the recent past, and that there is fresh bone, blood, dna, and tissue being discovered even now, would you consider a video presentation on such? if no, I will move to my next question.
Sure. Btw, it's never been our position that dinosaurs and man never shared the planet, we do to this day with Crocodiles etc. But yes please ill be interested in seeing that for sure.
 
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The7thColporteur

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In Psalms 90:4 it also says that 1000 years is as the "watch of the night". So here the Bible also says that 1000 years covers a period of just 4 hours in Jehovah's mind! (Written at the time of Moses hence the older 3 watch system)
So some quick math...
24 hours in effect = 6 night watches @ 4 hours each. Total = Creative Day @ 6000 years each.
Or keeping 24 hours restricted to 3 night watches as it naturally occurs;
24 hours = 3 night watches @ 4 hours each. Total = Creative Day @ 3000 years each....
You double symbolized/spiritualized the language Psalms 90:4. I'll come back to this a some point.
 
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The7thColporteur

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...In short we are not that concerned with the actual amount of time involved, we care more that there was an act of creation. You'll find a mix of different ideas within the Organization, although I don't think there would be too many who believe in the 24 hour modal based on the expectations of a human being (Adam) to carry out all that work in such a short time. ""AT LAST" I have company in the form of a mate", is a strange statement to make if you've only just been created yourself. The idea needed to build up within his heart for quite some time prior to that exclaimation, and no doubt many many years of seeing the animals with there mates contributed to his happiness at first seeing Eve....
Wow, its way worse than I thought.
 
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