Prayers to the dead - not in the Bible

[BobRyan]

You are now attributing words to me that I have not said and do not mean.

Well when you say people in heaven are the "alive in Christ" and only their bodies are dead - you have set the parameters for the discussion, for the definition of the terms we are using.

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
So then you do not think of them as "the DEAD in Christ" but they are the "DEAD that you are in communion with" right?

Well, they are dead in the world - physically - until the resurrection.

Which is - their dead body.

But they are alive in Christ.

Which apparently is a reference to the soul - the person - in heaven while their body on earth is dead.

===================

In a later post you will insist that I not make the mistake of concluding this.

 

[archer75]

Well when you say people in heaven are the "alive in Christ" and only their bodies are dead - you have set the parameters for the discussion, for the definition of the terms we are using.

No. You said I "sought out" dead bodies. This is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

Let's put it this way: those who are alive on earth and are part of the Body of Christ are in communion with ALL those who are in the Body of Christ - regardless of whether they are "dead on earth."

However, I can no longer give you the benefit of the doubt. Your words have shown that you are not arguing or discussing in good faith.

 

[archer75]

Well when you say people in heaven are the "alive in Christ" and only their bodies are dead - you have set the parameters for the discussion, for the definition of the terms we are using.

No. You said I "sought out" dead bodies. This is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

Let's put it this way: those who are alive on earth and are part of the Body of Christ are in communion with ALL those who are in the Body of Christ - regardless of whether they are "dead on earth."

However, I can no longer give you the benefit of the doubt. Your words have shown that you are not arguing or discussing in good faith.

 

[The7thColporteur]

"Prayers to the dead - not in the Bible" The title only applies to those shrunken bibles with a mere 66 books listed in the table of contents.

As for the 66 books, this too, is found in scripture itself [KJB],:

[1] as it is in the sanctuary, 6 loaves on the left, 6 loaves on the right, 66 [bread and the word, linked],

[2] also see the Candlestick itself, count the flowers, knops, etc, and it comes to 66, for the Word is a Lamp unto my feet.

[3] The OT, is also 39, which is the standard of judgment, 40-1 [forty stripes save 1].

Therefore, the true Bible [KJB] is not "shrunken", but is of the perfect weight for man to be made perfect, 6 being the number of man, from Genesis. Divinity and humanity combined, God manifest in the flesh - 6, and fallen man reunited - 6. For the New Testament, there are numerous parallel to the Sanctuary, 3x3x3, or 4 Gospels like the 4 living creatures surrounding the life of Jesus uplifting Him, and about the Sacrifice/Altar of the Courtyard [justified], the book of Acts on the Baptism/Laver of the Courtyard. The 7 church Epistles, paralleling the 7 churches of Revelation, speaking about the living of the daily life, candlestick [witnesssing], shewbread [abding in Christ's word] and incense [prayer], thus mioving from the Holy Place [sanctified] and Most Places Hebrews to Revelation [glorified].

As for those other books of "strangers" [the so-called deuterocanon, apocrypha] of whom God says, "I never knew you".

"1. Not one of them is in the Hebrew language, which was alone used by the inspired historians and poets of the Old Testament.

2. Not one of the writers lays any claim to inspiration.

3. These books were never acknowledged as sacred Scriptures by the Jewish Church, and therefore were never sanctioned by our Lord.

4. They were not allowed a place among the sacred books, during the first four centuries of the Christian Church.

5. They contain fabulous statements, and statements which contradict not only the canonical Scriptures, but themselves; as when, in the two Books of Maccabees, Antiochus Epiphanes is made to die three different deaths in as many different places.

6. It inculcates doctrines at variance with the Bible, such as prayers for the dead...

7. It teaches immoral practices, such as lying, suicide, assassination and magical incantation.

If having the Apocrypha between the Testaments disqualifies it as authoritative, then the corrupt Vaticanus and Sinaiticus [Shepherd of Hermas, Epistle of Barnabus] manuscripts from Alexandria, Egypt must be totally worthless since their authors obviously didn't have the conviction of the King James translators and incorporated its books into the text of the Old Testament thus giving it authority with Scripture." - The Answer Book by Samuel C. Gipp | Evangelist Samuel C. Gipp, Th.D. | A Friend to Churches Ministries​

 

[princesstatyanna]

Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Many non-Christian world religions also pray to the dead. And as one Catholic Digest Q&A article said -- the difference includes being careful "which dead" that you are praying to.

Both groups use images to in some way to represent the being they are praying to - and both groups ask for favors or promise some sort of devotion.

Driving in the car on the way home from a recent trip to visit family - I heard a radio program "EWTN" that was a call-in show. Many catholics were calling in and asking questions of the priest. After a number of callers one pattern began to emerge. They were all asking about the best ritual or practice or for adoring this or that statue/image or for conducting liturgy in Latin (or not) ...

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

Later that same day - another call-in show on another radio station -- this one was evangelical and the callers were all asking questions about doctrine or what the Bible meant when it said "this" or "That".

What an interesting world we live in.

Side note: -- see also
962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

as Christians, we should NOT be trying to communicate with the dead. This is a very wicked thing to do. We should leave the deceased alone.

 

[archer75]

as Christians, we should NOT be trying to communicate with the dead. This is a very wicked thing to do. We should leave the deceased alone.

We do not ask them for information. We ask for their prayers.

 

[BobRyan]

If so then when you seek "communion with the dead" you are saying you are seeking out their dead bodies -- because as you have defined it - those in heaven are "not the dead" only their bodies here on earth are?

or should the doctrine have been titled "no communion with the dead - only communion with the alive-in-Christ"??

And do you have a place where the Bible calls the dead "the alive in Christ"??

OP now amended slightly to accommodate your post.

You seem to be saying that everywhere we see "the dead" in the text below - we should qualify it as "the dead body of those who are in heaven alive in Christ"

In "memory of the dead body"??
Pray "for the dead bodies that they may be loosed from their sins"??
"the dead bodies who are being purified"??


958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.


962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).

No. You said I "sought out" dead bodies. This is a deliberate misrepresentation of what I said.

Once you settled on the meaning of the term "the dead" to mean "only the dead body" -- then you are forcing the next statement to have a certain meaning "communion with the dead". Once you insist that "the dead" can only mean "the dead body" -- the rest of that post above is the logical consequence ... all we do is plug in "the dead body" (your definition) everywhere we find 'the dead'.

I merely add "seek out" because I assume you and I both agree at the very least that dead bodies do not lie in the ground listening for us to speak with them far from the grave site. They merely undergo the decay process to return to dust. So any "communion with them" is going to have to be right there - where they are.

 

[BobRyan]

as Christians, we should NOT be trying to communicate with the dead. This is a very wicked thing to do. We should leave the deceased alone.

so then you are not for "communion with the dead"?

 

[BobRyan]

We do not ask them for information. We ask for their prayers.

Communion and communication are the same. You cannot commune with someone you refuse to communicate with.

 

[The7thColporteur]

We do not ask them for information. We ask for their prayers.

Job 14:21 KJB - His sons come to honour, and he knoweth it not; and they are brought low, but he perceiveth it not of them.

 

[BobRyan]

"Prayers to the dead - not in the Bible" The title only applies to those shrunken bibles with a mere 66 books listed in the table of contents.

The so-called "expanded" Bible is the one with extra Jewish books in it - which the Jews themselves admit are not supposed to be there.

I bet it is "so called" by people with only 66 books in their 'bible'.

Or that notice that you can't insert pre-cross non-Christian Jewish books - into the Christian Bible - that even the Jews admit - are not canonical. Even Jerome who did the Latin Vulgate translation admitted that doing so - was error.

 

[The7thColporteur]

...Even Jerome who did the Latin Vulgate translation admitted that doing so - was error.

To be fair to our ever shifting zeitgeist of traditionalists, that would be where they reject Jerome and accept someone else who already agrees with them [at least in the parts where they agree with them, and where they don't onto someone else, and so on...]. I don't even know why they bother to go cite people when they had their mind made up as to what they accepted before they ever got to those people.

It's like, they say, "I like Augustine here, but reject him here, there and there, and I like Clementine here, but reject him here, here and there, and Duns Scotus here and here, but not there, Bonaventure, here and there, but definitely not here, and I like Thomas Aquinas here and here, but when it comes to that literal six day creation stuff and of his global deluge, that's for those heretics ..."

In fact, with all that pickin' and choosin', I wouldn't know why any one of them would listen to someone's prayers or pray for such persons even if they were alive [which they ain't, cold and in the ground]

Just sayin'.

 

[☦Marius☦]

THE SAVED ARE NOT DEAD, THEY ARE RESURRECTED.

WE ARE NOT COMMUNICATING WITH THE DEAD BUT THOSE WHO ARE RESURRECTED.

I don't understand why this concept is so hard, except for those who are willingly trying to be antagonist to things they perceive as Catholic.

We do not worship the dead
We do not pray to the dead
We do not pray to the dead's corpses

WE DO:
Ask the resurrected to pray for us
Pray with the resurrected
Commune with the resurrected.

 

[☦Marius☦]

To be fair to our ever shifting zeitgeist of traditionalists, that would be where they reject Jerome and accept someone else who already agrees with them [at least in the parts where they agree with them, and where they don't onto someone else, and so on...]. I don't even know why they bother to go cite people when they had their mind made up as to what they accepted before they ever got to those people.

It's like, they say, "I like Augustine here, but reject him here, there and there, and I like Clementine here, but reject him here, here and there, and Duns Scotus here and here, but not there, Bonaventure, here and there, but definitely not here, and I like Thomas Aquinas here and here, but when it comes to that literal six day creation stuff and of his global deluge, that's for those heretics ..."

In fact, with all that pickin' and choosin', I wouldn't know why any one of them would listen to someone's prayers or pray for such persons even if they were alive [which they ain't, cold and in the ground]

Just sayin'.

"Just sayin" If they are cold in the ground and their spirit not resurrected, THEN WHY BELIEVE IN CHRIST AT ALL.

Christ showed by his resurrection that those who follow him would be resurrected in spirit into heaven.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Why not go be Jewish if you don't believe in the resurrection of the dead? Not only are we sure we can ask those departed Christians for their prayers, but we know those prayers are answered frequently as the witness of both the Catholic and Orthodox Church's.

 

[☦Marius☦]

Another protestant/evangelical proclaiming the occult practice of seeking out sacred numbers. What a surprise.

 

[The7thColporteur]

"Just sayin" If they are cold in the ground and their spirit not resurrected, THEN WHY BELIEVE IN CHRIST AT ALL.

Christ showed by his resurrection that those who follow him would be resurrected in spirit into heaven.

They will be [future tense], just not yet [Enoch and Elijah, both who never died, were translated, Moses, received special resurrection, and the firstfruits round Jerusalem at Jesus' own resurrection. That's it for the moment.] Right now, those who have died, are in their graves:

Ecclesiastes 9:10 KJB - Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Another protestant/evangelical proclaiming the occult practice of seeking out sacred numbers. What a surprise.

Nothing Occult about the Biblical use of numbers, for God is the wonderful numberer. Numbers the stars, hairs on your head, sands of the seashore, the times, etc:

Was John an occultist?

Revelation 13:18 KJB - Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[The7thColporteur]

THE SAVED ARE NOT DEAD, THEY ARE RESURRECTED.

WE ARE NOT COMMUNICATING WITH THE DEAD BUT THOSE WHO ARE RESURRECTED.

I don't understand why this concept is so hard, except for those who are willingly trying to be antagonist to things they perceive as Catholic.

We do not worship the dead
We do not pray to the dead
We do not pray to the dead's corpses

WE DO:
Ask the resurrected to pray for us
Pray with the resurrected
Commune with the resurrected.

They are resurrected already? When?

2 Timothy 2:18 KJB - Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.