BobRyan

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Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.​

Many non-Christian world religions also pray to the dead. And as one Catholic Digest Q&A article said -- the difference includes being careful "which dead" that you are praying to.

Both groups use images to in some way to represent the being they are praying to - and both groups ask for favors or promise some sort of devotion.

Driving in the car on the way home from a recent trip to visit family - I heard a radio program "EWTN" that was a call-in show. Many catholics were calling in and asking questions of the priest. After a number of callers one pattern began to emerge. They were all asking about the best ritual or practice or for adoring this or that statue/image or for conducting liturgy in Latin (or not) ...

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;​

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

Later that same day - another call-in show on another radio station -- this one was evangelical and the callers were all asking questions about doctrine or what the Bible meant when it said "this" or "That".

What an interesting world we live in.

Side note: -- see also
962 "We believe in the communion of all the faithful of Christ, those who are pilgrims on earth, the dead who are being purified, and the blessed in heaven, all together forming one Church; and we believe that in this communion, the merciful love of God and his saints is always [attentive] to our prayers" (Paul VI, CPG § 30).
This will come up later in the thread -- so for "reference"

1 Thess 5
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.​

Notice that "we who are alive" is never applied to "the dead in Christ" - rather always contrasted with them.

Isaiah 8:19 includes this " should not a people seek their God? Should they seek the dead on behalf of the living? "

Given this Bible detail alone -- it is probably easy for us all to see how it could be that many Christians today would prefer not to engage in "communion with the dead"

And at the same time - it is also easy to see how a great many world religions who do not have access to 1 Thess 5 or Isaiah 8:19 WOULD in fact be choosing "communion with the dead"
 
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Stabat Mater dolorosa

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This whole thread is insincere and made with an rather explicit agenda which is to ridicule and bash the church and her faithful.

Honestly why do you bother?

YOU KNOW we dont worship statues, but venerate the saints they remind us of and YOU KNOW we dont pray to dead people as we consider all souls justified by Christ to be even more alive than we are.
As for purgatory we pray FOR them not to them.
To pray to God for mercy upon your loved ones is an truely pious act and nothing but it.
 
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☦Marius☦

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Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Many non-Christian world religions also pray to the dead. And as one Catholic Digest Q&A article said -- the difference includes being careful "which dead" that you are praying to.

Both groups use images to in some way to represent the being they are praying to - and both groups ask for favors or promise some sort of devotion.

Driving in the car on the way home from a recent trip to visit family - I heard a radio program "EWTN" that was a call-in show. Many catholics were calling in and asking questions of the priest. After a number of callers one pattern began to emerge. They were all asking about the best ritual or practice or for adoring this or that statue/image or for conducting liturgy in Latin (or not) ...

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

Later that same day - another call-in show on another radio station -- this one was evangelical and the callers were all asking questions about doctrine or what the Bible meant when it said "this" or "That".

What an interesting world we live in.

Communion with the dead, and prayer for the dead are two different things. The Bible claims we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, and therefore we assume that those who have departed are still communing with the church since we believe communion to be timeless. Those departed are worshiping God at the same time we are, and therefore we may ask them to pray for us as we would ask a family member.

This is different then praying for the dead, which is probably the oldest Christian tradition out there, which we do simply because we don't know exactly what happens right after death to the unsaved. The Bible says Christ ministered to the souls in sheol. So who knows. We do it just in case.

As for the statue thing. I don't consider praying before statues to be wrong as the second commandment does not apply in the case of Christ and other Christians. Christ took on human flesh and therefore can represented. The second commandment is banning us from making images of the invisible, unincarnate God which we should not do. But to represent Christ is to acknowledged the incarnation. As long as you are not praying to the statue/image itself and praying to the person it represents then I see no problem.

Apostolic Traditional Christian Churches differ from evangelical in how we read the word. You aren't going to hear as many questions about the Bible because we already have established doctrine. I could look up what my church believed on a verse and easily find it. However protestant and evangelical use of sola scriptura means that private interpretation is necessary. Therefore I imagine many more protestants would be asking HOW to interpret things since it is up to them to decide. Every protestant church differs slightly in doctrine depending on the pastor. This leaves room for more questions.
 
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thecolorsblend

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BobRyan

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YOU KNOW we dont worship statues, but venerates them

I have many Hindu friends that say the same thing.

and YOU KNOW we dont pray to dead people

I am not the one who titled it "958 Communion with the dead. " -- you knew that right?

as we consider all souls justified by Christ to be even more alive than we are.

Yet in 1 Thess 4 - Paul contrasts the dead with "we who ARE ALIVE"

As for purgatory we pray FOR them not to them.
To pray to God for mercy upon your loved ones is an truely pious act and nothing but it.

Well I did not mention purgatory.

"958 Communion with the dead. " -- is praying to them.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christian Worship
"The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, "honour"; from worth, meaning "value", "dignity", "price", and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God."



"There are several degrees of this worship:"
  • if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
  • When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
  • As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia
 
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archer75

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Well, as has been said, we ask the saints for their help - by praying for us.

In the OC, we say that to deny images is to deny the Incarnation. You can make an image of what's visible.

Images of saints are images of those in whom the image of Christ is seen clearly. In a sense, an image of a saint is an image of an image of Christ.
 
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archer75

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@BobRyan What exactly do you object to? Yes, we are in communion with the dead and the living who are in the Body of Christ. What is your objection?

I see you are quoting from the CCC and I am not a RC, but I think our EO beliefs are close enough that your objection will apply to both.
 
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archer75

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I have many Hindu friends that say the same thing.



I am not the one who titled it "958 Communion with the dead. " -- you knew that right?



Yet in 1 Thess 4 - Paul contrasts the dead with "we who ARE ALIVE"



Well I did not mention purgatory.

"958 Communion with the dead. " -- is praying to them.

CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Christian Worship
"The word worship (Saxon weorthscipe, "honour"; from worth, meaning "value", "dignity", "price", and the termination, ship; Latin cultus) in its most general sense is homage paid to a person or a thing. In this sense we may speak of hero-worship, worship of the emperor, of demons, of the angels, even of relics, and especially of the Cross. This article will deal with Christian worship according to the following definition: homage paid to God, to Jesus Christ, to His saints, to the beings or even to the objects which have a special relation to God."



"There are several degrees of this worship:"
  • if it is addressed directly to God, it is superior, absolute, supreme worship, or worship of adoration, or, according to the consecrated theological term, a worship of latria. This sovereign worship is due to God alone; addressed to a creature it would become idolatry.
  • When worship is addressed only indirectly to God, that is, when its object is the veneration of martyrs, of angels, or of saints, it is a subordinate worship dependent on the first, and relative, in so far as it honours the creatures of God for their peculiar relations with Him; it is designated by theologians as the worship of dulia, a term denoting servitude, and implying, when used to signify our worship of distinguished servants of God, that their service to Him is their title to our veneration (cf. Chollet, loc. cit., col. 2407, and Bouquillon, Tractatus de virtute religionis, I, Bruges, 1880, 22 sq.).
  • As the Blessed Virgin has a separate and absolutely supereminent rank among the saints, the worship paid to her is called hyperdulia
Regarding your Hindu friends...what do their statements have to do with ancient Christian pracices?
 
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BobRyan

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958
Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.


Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

As for the statue thing. I don't consider praying before statues to be wrong as the second commandment does not apply in the case of Christ and other Christians. Christ took on human flesh and therefore can represented. The second commandment is banning us from making images of the invisible, unincarnate God which we should not do. But to represent Christ is to acknowledged the incarnation. As long as you are not praying to the statue/image itself and praying to the person it represents then I see no problem.

Is it your view that the 2nd commandment applied to others.. but not to Christians?
 
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BobRyan

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YOU KNOW we dont worship statues, but venerates them

I have many Hindu friends that say the same thing.

Regarding your Hindu friends...what do their statements have to do with ancient Christian pracices?

1. how ancient? Notice the title of the thread.

2. The point is that they have a certain level of agreement with your statement above.
 
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BobRyan

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958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.


Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

@BobRyan What exactly do you object to? Yes, we are in communion with the dead and the living who are in the Body of Christ. What is your objection?

I see you are quoting from the CCC and I am not a RC, but I think our EO beliefs are close enough that your objection will apply to both.

So then you are ok with "communion with the dead"

And do you also agree that the 2nd commandment does not apply to you only to others?
 
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klutedavid

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Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Many non-Christian world religions also pray to the dead. And as one Catholic Digest Q&A article said -- the difference includes being careful "which dead" that you are praying to.

Both groups use images to in some way to represent the being they are praying to - and both groups ask for favors or promise some sort of devotion.

Driving in the car on the way home from a recent trip to visit family - I heard a radio program "EWTN" that was a call-in show. Many catholics were calling in and asking questions of the priest. After a number of callers one pattern began to emerge. They were all asking about the best ritual or practice or for adoring this or that statue/image or for conducting liturgy in Latin (or not) ...

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

Later that same day - another call-in show on another radio station -- this one was evangelical and the callers were all asking questions about doctrine or what the Bible meant when it said "this" or "That".

What an interesting world we live in.
What does the following commandment mean?

4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
 
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archer75

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Is it even possible that every thread on the board that does not agree with your POV on all points .. is "insincere"??
I am having a hard time following the gist of your posts. Would you state more explicitly the objection that (it seems) you have to certain points of RC teaching?
 
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BobRyan

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Some Christians believe in a doctrine called "communion with the dead"

958 Communion with the dead. "In full consciousness of this communion of the whole Mystical Body of Jesus Christ, the Church in its pilgrim members, from the very earliest days of the Christian religion, has honored with great respect the memory of the dead; and 'because it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins' she offers her suffrages for them."500 Our prayer for them is capable not only of helping them, but also of making their intercession for us effective.

Interesting that the 2nd commandment says this
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.
5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Some read "graven images and stop" -- thinking of ways this could not possibly apply. But I think the focus should be on vs 5 " 5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: "

What does the following commandment mean?
4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.

Do you read "graven images and stop"??
 
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