Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

[mark kennedy]

Both the Egyptians and the Babylonians had beer as early as 3500 BC. That's likely the "strong drink" of Deuteronomy.

Yea man has been fermenting the grain and crushing the grape going all the way back at least to Noah.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are other good things that can nevertheless damage the unborn child.

Like what?
Even if that was the case, does that somehow change the reality that alcohol puts at risk the baby of a pregnant mother?

Why do you think alcohol can put at risk a baby of a pregnant mother?

 

[Radagast]

Wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart - Ps 104:15

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart -- Psalm 104:15

This is talking about wine diluted with water.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29). The water is representative of the Scriptures (See Ephesians 5:26). We are told to abide in Christ and abide in His words (See John 15:7).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I mean, have you ever wondered why most alcoholic beverages do not have nutrition labels on them? Because it does not offer any nutritional value.

 

[Philip_B]

Sadly, in the midst of this thread, argued from positions of deeply held convictions we seem to have lost something of the great joy of the first of the signs that Jesus did in Cana of Galilee. The water vats stood their as a testament to the old way, the ritual cleansing of the old covenant, and in the midst of this we find the celebration and joy of the new covenant in Jesus.

Whilst I think that the meaningful way to understand the John 2 passage as a whole takes the view that the wine was alcoholic, I don't think that is the point of the passage. The old covenant was about the ritual, and the new covenant is about the celebration.

Luke 7:33-34
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, “He has a demon”; the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!”

John 2:11
Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.​

I take the view that nothing is evil of itself. Hemp makes good rope, and the rope historically has been used to save people, protect people, and to hang people. Alcohol it its various forms is used for various purposes, including cleaning and sterilising, medicine, social lubrication, celebration, and to ignore the reality before us. Matter matters, and that is one of the lessons of the incarnation, and yet matter is not in itself evil, however it is possible to do some very evil things with it.

 

[Radagast]

Sadly, in the midst of this thread, argued from positions of deeply held convictions we seem to have lost something of the great joy of the first of the signs that Jesus did in Cana of Galilee.

All through Jesus' ministry, there were Pharisees off to the side somewhere, saying "People are happy. It's got to stop."

 

[Bible Highlighter]

All through Jesus' ministry, there were Pharisees off to the side somewhere, saying "People are happy. It's got to stop."

But you are ignoring the other side of the story. Alcohol is not just fun and happiness. It also causes millions of deaths each year. It has also caused a lot of heart ache and pain. We also have to examine the fruits of alcohol. Does alcohol produce good fruit generally or bad fruit mostly? Well, Jesus says, a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit and bad tree cannot bring forth good fruit.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

We are called to love. To love others. If we do not care about those who are perishing by alcohol and speak up for people to stop, then it is a lack of love or caring about those who perish by such a drug.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The problem with the Pharisees is that they did not love (See Luke 11:42).

 

[Radagast]

But you are ignoring the other side of the story.

God created grapes that start fermenting as soon as you squash them. Psalm 104 tells us what a wonderful thing wine is. Jesus miraculously turned water into wine at Cana.

Three reasons to say: wine is a good thing.

Now I'm going to leave this thread and have a delicious glass of Cabernet Sauvignon.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sadly, in the midst of this thread, argued from positions of deeply held convictions we seem to have lost something of the great joy of the first of the signs that Jesus did in Cana of Galilee. The water vats stood their as a testament to the old way, the ritual cleansing of the old covenant, and in the midst of this we find the celebration and joy of the new covenant in Jesus.

Whilst I think that the meaningful way to understand the John 2 passage as a whole takes the view that the wine was alcoholic, I don't think that is the point of the passage. The old covenant was about the ritual, and the new covenant is about the celebration.

Luke 7:33-34
For John the Baptist has come eating no bread and drinking no wine, and you say, “He has a demon”; the Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, “Look, a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax-collectors and sinners!”

John 2:11
Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.​

I take the view that nothing is evil of itself. Hemp makes good rope, and the rope historically has been used to save people, protect people, and to hang people. Alcohol it its various forms is used for various purposes, including cleaning and sterilising, medicine, social lubrication, celebration, and to ignore the reality before us. Matter matters, and that is one of the lessons of the incarnation, and yet matter is not in itself evil, however it is possible to do some very evil things with it.

If nothing is evil in itself, then the devil is not evil, and inappropriate content is not evil, and the satanic bible is not evil, and the future mark of the beast is not evil.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God created grapes that start fermenting as soon as you squash them. Psalm 104 tells us what a wonderful thing wine is. Jesus miraculously turned water into wine at Cana.

Three reasons to say: wine is a good thing.

Now I'm going to leave this thread and have a delicious glass of Cabernet Sauvignon.

Not everything man does is good or natural, though.

Anyways, here are...

21 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:

21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)


16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

 

[2PhiloVoid]

God created grapes that start fermenting as soon as you squash them. Psalm 104 tells us what a wonderful thing wine is. Jesus miraculously turned water into wine at Cana.

Three reasons to say: wine is a good thing.

God also created the Poppies, and we've all heard just how "beautiful" these flowers can make the world, particularly for some people who really like them ... a lot.

But seriously, you have a good point Radagast. The only thing we might notice is that we only have the one instance of Jesus officiating this particular kind of miracle, and it was at a special event, a wedding no less. I have a feeling that after that wedding, Jesus didn't humor His disciples each time they refilled their waterbags (or canteens, or whatever).

But I can just see it. Judas: "Lord?" Jesus: "Yes, Judas?" Judas: "Remember that really neat miracle you did back in Cana? Well, I'm kind of hankering for some of that wine you made. Wonderful stuff! So, could you just take a moment and bless my waterbag. I promise I won't tell the others!" Jesus: "Judas! Judas! Judas! What am I ever going to do with you?"

 

[Bible Highlighter]

God created grapes that start fermenting as soon as you squash them. Psalm 104 tells us what a wonderful thing wine is. Jesus miraculously turned water into wine at Cana.

Three reasons to say: wine is a good thing.

Now I'm going to leave this thread and have a delicious glass of Cabernet Sauvignon.

Psalms 104:15 is in reference to wine diluted with water. For you can still be glad with wine that is diluted. However, there were warnings in the OT against the use of strong undiluted alcoholic drinks.

 

[Philip_B]

If nothing is evil in itself, then the devil is not evil, and inappropriate content is not evil, and the satanic bible is not evil, and the future mark of the beast is not evil.

In love Jason, please do not twist my words, I was quite clear that I was speaking of matter (real tangible things comprising molecules) and I stand by that contention with conviction.

Genesis 1:31
God saw everything that he had made, and indeed, it was very good. And there was evening and there was morning, the sixth day.​

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Actually, it doesn't say that at all. In fact, Timothy is specifically told to drink alcohol (1 Timothy 5:23).

1 Timothy 3:3 says that bishops should not be "given to drunkenness" (μὴ πάροινον), not that they should abstain from alcohol completely.

Actually it does

1 Timothy 3:2-12 King James Version (KJV)
2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

 

[SolomonVII]

Jews have historically had very low rates of alcoholism, especially until modern times, when drinking wine was not ever considered a recreational activity, but a part of religious ritual. There were specified times during the meal when a cup of wine was lifted, and the role of the drink was not drunkenness but to honor and glorify God.

Different cultures have different modes of indulging in alcohol. For the Greeks at that time, or the Romans, drinking was done to enter into the realm of the gods of wine, such as Liber or Dionysius, and the consciousness of drunkenness is what was celebrated. Drunkenness is often the goal of many drinking parties of the modern age too, long after the gods of such behavior have long been forgotten. Responsible social drinking is becoming more encouraged in our culture, for the lowering of inhibitions and shyness in social and after hours situations sometimes helps to people to loosen up and get to know each other, without all the social anxiety and second thoughts that come from minds that are fully sober and fully in control against even the remotest possibility of a faux pas.

Out of all these patterns of drinking, it is clear that the Bible does not advocate drinking to get drunk. Apparently, as the drinking at the wedding at Cana demonstrates, drinking was very much a part of Jewish celebrations in that era.
Nevertheless, the context of drinking in Jewish culture is ritual drinking, such as Jesus raising a cup during the Last Supper. Scott Hahn explains this well in his book The Fourth Cup, and this is the type of drinking that is typical in Jewish ceremonies.
Alcohol is called spirits for a reason, for the change of consciousness involved is understood to be entering into the world of Spirit, and a different consciousness of what is real. The sense of euphoria experienced with the first two or three or four drinking spaced over a span of time can bring a remembrance and a gratitude for the Spiritual dimension, and an understanding that there is more to ordinary reality than what first appears to be.
Of course, as one descends into the sin of gluttony, the spirits that come to the fore are not that innocent anymore. Drunkenness is a demonic experience overall. It is soul-destroying in its lowest depths.

In sum, it is more than probable, and even essential, that the wine that Jesus gives his disciples is alcoholic. Drinking, much more than eating, has the potential to be a spiritual affair. The spiritual energy unleashed through imbibing in alchohol is real enough, and over the ages, ways to be properly influenced by the spirit unleashed by drinking had been ritualized in order that believers may experience the best of both worlds.
Make no doubt about it though, that Satan is a part of the spiritual world too, and to enter into the world of spirit without the proper set of parameters being set is a dangerous thing to do.
One must examine one's heart and recognize that drinking for the wrong reasons will take any of us on a path to a very dark place.

 

[The7thColporteur]

Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

In fact, if Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink (Whereby they would slip back into drinking themselves to death). Anyways, here are 6 reasons in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine.

#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
Jesus's blood washes away our sins. Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Jesus says He is the bread of life and that we are to eat of his flesh and blood. Jesus is life. However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life. This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

#2. Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.
"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also," (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus gave strong drink to his fellow neighbors here, he would be under the woe of Habakkuk 2:15. This would not be a blessing for Jesus but it would be a curse if he were to disobey this part of Scripture.

#3. Jesus is a King (And wine is not for kings).
Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advice or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#4. Warnings against Alcohol.
Wine is a mocker (Proverbs 20:1). Strong drink is raging (Proverbs 20:1). Whoever is deceived by it is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). Wine bites like a serpent and stings like an adder (Proverbs 23:32). Do not look upon wine when it is red in the cup and when it moves itself aright (Proverbs 23:31). You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:6). Who has woe? who has sorrow? who has contentions? who has babbling? who has wounds without cause? who has redness of eyes? (Proverbs 23:29). They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30).

#5. If Jesus did get people drunk (It would be a sin) & They would no longer be Sober.
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

#6. Christ set a good example by His miracle.
The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

Therefore, Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

Solid post brother, concise and well evidenced. Now, let's give them something more to chew ... hopefully tomorrow I will be at it.

 

[Radagast]

God also created the Poppies, and we've all heard just how "beautiful" these flowers can make the world

Yummmm. Poppy-seed cake.

Oh, were you talking about the other kind of poppy? They grow near here. They are a wonderful source of pain-killing medicines, and I'm sure that God gave them to us for that reason. Of course, they have a tragic potential for misuse, which is why access to them should be, and is, controlled.

Now, you may ask, what did God give us wine for? And Psalm 104:15 tells us one reason: to gladden the heart of man.