The Rapture could never be legitimate grounds to refute God's Judgment of the earth.

[LastSeven]

Now, there are some Christians who believe that they can challenge God's Judgement of the earth (Isaiah 24:5-6) by making reference to the Rapture in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17.

So, here is the excerpt from Isaiah 24:5-6, which has prophesied the Coming Judgment:

5 The earth is polluted by its people. They haven’t obeyed the laws of the Lord. They haven’t done what he told them to do. THEY'VE BROKEN THE COVENANT THAT WILL LAST FOREVER.

6 So the Lord will send a curse on the earth. Its people will pay for what they’ve done. THEY WILL BE BURNED UP. VERY FEW OF THEM WILL BE LEFT.

However, there are some Christians who would try to reinterpret the context of Isaiah 24:5-6 by using 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 to suggest 2 different outcome:-

(1) Christians alive on the earth will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven BEFORE the Coming Judgement, so that the only people who would perish are the Non-believers, but no Christian would ever be destroyed by God's Judgement of the earth.

(2) Those who are still left alive after the Judgement will be taken up to meet Jesus in heaven, and those Christians will stay in heaven for all eternity.

So, here is the excerpt from 1 Thessalonians 4, which is the basis of this argument:

1 Thessalonians 4

16 For the LORD himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the LORD in the air. And so we will be with the LORD forever.

However, such arguments based on 1 Thessalonians 4 are fundamentally flawed in regards to points (1) and (2).

Since both arguments have presupposed that "All the Christians will be taken up to heaven" SUCH THAT THERE WOULD BE NO CHRISTIANS LEFT AT ALL ON THE EARTH.

This implies that the Future new heaven and earth - Or the New Jerusalem - WILL NOT BE RULED NOR INHABITED BY THE FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST. Revelation 21

Since there would be no Future generations of Christians left at all once their forebears are "Taken up to meet Jesus in heaven" and there is no prospect of those people coming back to earth according to Christian theology = Hebrews 9:27.

Therefore, such an argument is fundamentally flawed since it presupposes the OUTRIGHT GENOCIDE AND EXTINCTION OF CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

Such an argument is flawed since it is not compatible with the BIOLOGICAL SURVIVAL OF CHRISTIANS EVERYWHERE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

Discuss.

See how messed up things get when people deny that the rapture / resurrection happens on the last day? All this nonsense, and there's no need for it. We all stay on earth until the last day, when we are all resurrected. Both the righteous and the wicked. Simple. No need to jump through hoops to make the timelines work.

 

[Stonehaven]

See how messed up things get when people deny that the rapture / resurrection happens on the last day? All this nonsense, and there's no need for it. We all stay on earth until the last day, when we are all resurrected. Both the righteous and the wicked. Simple. No need to jump through hoops to make the timelines work.

But do you have evidence from the Bible to support this?

 

[Stonehaven]

You are the kind of Bridegroom who will let your Bride beaten black and blue and then beheaded in the tribulation.

But this comment has no Scriptural basis and it just goes to show your lack of understanding.

Also, you seem to forget that the Son of Man would come to "set nation against nation" (Matthew 24:7, Mark 13:8), and to divide people who are relatives - As in the examples of Luke 14:26, Matthew 10:34-40, 24:40-41 and the Parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 25:2-4, 13.

Your logic suggests that attacking one person or attack on his country would be equivalent to attacking every other country which are similar; but the history of the Second World War refutes this argument.

Since the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour on 7th December 1941 may well have been construed as an attack on every white country, including Nazi Germany; but Hitler responded by declaring war on the United States instead of Japan.

Ribbentrop's military alliance with the Japanese did nothing to change the fact that the attack on Pearl Harbour is still to be seen as an attack on Every white country, including Nazi Germany.

Notwithstanding the rules of logic, WWII has served to highlight that all of those white countries could still be divided if it would serve their interest to be adversaries instead of friends and allies.

Those countries can still be divided if it would serve their national interest, which may well take precedence over the interest of the Diaspora.

Edit: Although the 7 kingdoms in Revelation 17 are of "one mind", it still says that the 8th member of the G8 is the Beast (or Antichrist nation) which would go to destruction. So despite having " one mind" the G8 can still be divided, since America has resolutely refused to join the Future one world government led by Jesus, Christian leaders and the Church of Christ.

Also, we know that Russia and the US haven't always been the best of friends, which implies that the G8 rich club can still be divided.

Although it may not be possible to drive a wedge between US and the UK, God is more likely to drive a wedge between America and the Non-English speaking countries such as Russia, Germany and France etc.

 

[Stonehaven]

1. There are them who become Christians during the Great Tribulation and survive it - those are the Christians in their same as now bodies who enter the millennium.

They enter the millennium with their earthly bodies, which are not incorruptible - Since the flesh cannot be imperishable.

Ultimately, there is no prospect that such Christians would still continue to live with their earthly bodies for the entire duration of the millennium.

Repopulating the earth - there will be them born of the survivors of the Great Tribulation, from groups 1 and 2, who will have children who will have children, generations, during the millennium, some of them born in those generations will become Christians as well.

Now, Isaiah 24:6 says that only a "few/very few" are destined to survive the Great Tribulation; but Revelation 7:9 has also mentioned the "great multitude" of Christians (washed in the blood of the Lamb) - But not heathens - who are saved and are in heaven.

V9 says that they come from "Every nation and tribe and peoples and tongues" and V14 says that those very same Christians have "Come from the Great Tribulation", so that these are the very descendants of the "Few/very few" Christians who remained after the Tribulation.

But, also we need to remind ourselves that "Every nation and tribe" does not imply that "Every country should be exactly equal" in terms of the numbers of people from each country - As some countries would still be bigger than others in terms of the actual numbers of people.

Therefore, amongst those "few" Christians who survive the Tribulation there would still be different numbers of people from each country - Since the Tribulation would Judge, punish, and destroy all of those people who have "broken the covenant" in Isaiah 24:5; but some countries would be more likely than others to break this covenant, which is why there would still be more survivors who are from certain countries than the rest of this small group who survive the Great Tribulation.

 

[Blade]

Upon your PEOPLE..who was Daniel talking about? What PEOPLE and WHAT Holy City? Were these WEEKS aka 7 years talking about? YOUR PEOPLE....even said here thy people.. and then to try to tie them which were UNDER the law to us that are free from the law. WHY did Christ die?

And this judgment.. when Abraham got down to just 10 righteous.. was it GOD that stopped Abraham? Seems there was only ONE righteous and that ONE there stopped a GOD and His wrath. "as long as you are still here I CAN DO NOTHING". God had to judge a nation (what nation?) Yet God looked from among them just ONE to stand in the gap for them. and found none. I can keep going..

To also ingnor that fact that we as it is written will never see His wrath. And again we know this wrath will not as it was in days of old.. hit some cities but hit the WORLD! Now some can believe what ever they want but .. I will never ever see my Fathers wrath that is ONLY for the WICKED (lad up for) again what David aka GOD said a few times.

Here in is truth and as Christ said.. he who has ears to hear. If you BELIEVE there is no escape as in no caught up as in the voice the shout the trump of God and the dead rise then we change and go with them to meet Christ in the air to be with Him forever as it is written. Or that He can not lie that said He will go back to His Fathers house to make us a home that has many rooms. And if He goes He will come back and get us/take us/receive us unto Him self so where He is we will be. Where He goes we know. And if this was not true He would have said so.

Now I have NEVER read a TIME when this will happen. I read it and think..if He KNEW WHEN as in the END TIMES then Christ out right lied to them. He told them face to face I WILL COME BACK to receive you unto myself so WHERE I am you will be.. Who was YOU? The 1st. This never happen. So He lied.. right? Or He only knew that AFTER He rose NOTHING had to happen for the Father to tell Him GO GET YOUR CHURCH! So WHEN will this happen? Get over it.. no one knows..

So if you believe you must be here during the 7 years.. you really believe this GOD will force you to go when He comes? When you know as it is written He is a GOD of Faith and if you DOUBT let not that man think he will get ANYTHING from God. Do do you DOUBT what HE said? Do you follow what some man says?

I just believe what JESUS and the sweet sweet Holy spirit says.. And I live each day as if THIS is the moment. Foolish to trust in a day i was never promised .. as it is written. I have only NOW..

 

[Douggg]

They enter the millennium with their earthly bodies, which are not incorruptible - Since the flesh cannot be imperishable.

Ultimately, there is no prospect that such Christians would still continue to live with their earthly bodies for the entire duration of the millennium.

I agree The survivors of the Great Tribulation, they themselves will not live through the entire thousand years, but they will have children, who will have children, producing the generations of the 1000 year millennium.

V9 says that they come from "Every nation and tribe and peoples and tongues" and V14 says that those very same Christians have "Come from the Great Tribulation", so that these are the very descendants of the "Few/very few" Christians who remained after the Tribulation.

No, in Revelation 7, they are not the descendants of Christians who survive the Great Tribulation. They are the martyred Christians of the Great Tribulation. The ones in Revelation 7 are the ones in Revelation 6:10-11.

Different from them, the Christians and the heathen who survive the Great Tribulation will repopulate the earth and produce the generations of the 1000 year millennium.

 

[LastSeven]

But do you have evidence from the Bible to support this?

Of course!!!

1. There will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

Daniel 12:1
But at that time your people—everyone whose name is found written in the book—will be delivered. 2 Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.


2. The resurrection happens on the last day.

John 6:39
And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day.

John 6:40
For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:44
"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 6:54
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 11:24
Martha answered, "I know he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day."

Daniel 12:13
As for you, go your way until the end. You will rest, then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.

And judgment happens on the same day too. You want proof of that too?

 

[Hank77]

As by definition, the physical body is not incorruptible and the flesh of the Nazarene is long since decomposed and returned to the earth from whence it came.

I've heard enough.

Today we celebrate our Lord's Resurrection in a body of flesh and bone. 40 days later the disciples watch Him ascend into the clouds. His body never saw corruption.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

 

[Stonehaven]

I agree. The survivors of the Great Tribulation, they themselves will not live through the entire thousand years, but they will have children, who will have children, producing the generations of the 1000 year millennium.

These are the few survivors who are still alive in the immediate aftermath of the Tribulation, and they are briefly mentioned in Isaiah 24:6.

No, in Revelation 7, they are not the descendants of Christians who survive the Great Tribulation. They are the martyred Christians of the Great Tribulation. The ones in Revelation 7 are the ones in Revelation 6:10-11.

The Martyred Christians of the Great Tribulation are now in heaven with heavenly bodies.

Bereft of earthly bodies, they have no relevance to the long term biological survival of humans in the millenium after the Great Tribulation.

Should they return to the earth with Jesus they won't be able to return with their earthly bodies, and thereby have no relevance to the long term biological survival of humans after the Great Tribulation.

Different from them, the Christians and the heathen who survive the Great Tribulation will repopulate the earth and produce the generations of the 1000 year millennium.

Again, these are the few survivors who are briefly mentioned in Isaiah 24:6, which describes the sparsely populated earth in the immediate aftermath of the Tribulation.

Now, since the "few survivors" (Isaiah 24:6) are different from the Martyred Christians who are in heaven (Revelation 6:10-11, 7:9) it means that amongst the few survivors there won't be "Every nation and tribe and peoples and tongues", as such a rule is the exclusive reserve of all the Martyred Christians in heaven, but it doesn't apply to those "Few survivors" who are destined to repopulate the earth in the millenium after the Great Tribulation.

Now, since God is never bound to honour any promise which he didn't make, it means that he still has free rein to destroy any country, or wipe out any group of people at the time of the Tribulation.

Such a realisation has far reaching implications across the entire earth, and God has the prerogative to redraw, and redefine the geopolitical map for the next millennium after the Tribulation.

Ultimately, America will be replaced by other European powers, which would come to the fore in the millenium after the Great Tribulation.

Since the U.S. cannot reign for indefinite if there are no Americans left at all amongst those "Few survivors" in Isaiah 24:6.

Hallelujah, hallelujah!

 

[Stonehaven]

I've heard enough.

Today we celebrate our Lord's Resurrection in a body of flesh and bone. 40 days later the disciples watch Him ascend into the clouds. His body never saw corruption.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

Luk 24:38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?
Luk 24:39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.
Luk 24:40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

Luk 24:41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?
Luk 24:42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.
Luk 24:43 And he took it, and did eat before them.
Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.

What is true of the Son of God does not always hold true for those Raptured Christians who are destined to return to the earth with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Since the Bible does not explicitly mention that those Christians would return with eternal incorruptible bodies.

Now, the Bible says that the Raptured Christians (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) are different from the Martyred Christians (Revelation 6:10-11, 7:9-16) who will be "Resurrected with eternal incorruptible bodies" in 1 Corinthians 15:52, 54.

But the Bible does not say that those Raptured Christians would also be "Resurrected with eternal incorruptible bodies" - Since the Raptured Christians are different from the Martyred Christians.

Nor does the Bible say that the Raptured Christians would return to earth in their "eternal incorruptible bodies" - Since there is no mention of it in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Raptured Christians would return to earth in their "eternal incorruptible bodies".

Therefore, what is true of Christ does not always hold true for the Raptured Christians who are destined to return to the earth with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

 

[Douggg]

The Martyred Christians of the Great Tribulation are now in heaven with heavenly bodies.

Bereft of earthly bodies, they have no relevance to the long term biological survival of humans in the millenium after the Great Tribulation.

Should they return to the earth with Jesus they won't be able to return with their earthly bodies, and thereby have no relevance to the long term biological survival of humans after the Great Tribulation.

Stonehaven, you have made that point, but it irrelevant to who repopulates the earth. It is the survivors of the Great Tribulation who will repopulate the earth.

How many persons from Jacob's clan went down into Egypt and how man came out in the Exodus?

Again, these are the few survivors who are briefly mentioned in Isaiah 24:6, which describes the sparsely populated earth in the immediate aftermath of the Tribulation.

Therein, lies the problem. You have it fixed in your head what is meant by "few" as being certain number - which you have no idea of what that number is that you can pinpoint from the bible. You can't say 20, 200, 2000, 200,000, 2 million, 20 million, 200 million. Of the Jews, one could reason a third of the population will survive the great tribulation from the text in Zechariah 13:8.

Few in the Isaiah prophecy is a relevant term in regards to the population of the earth before the Great Tribulation begins and after it is over. You don't have an actual number. No-one has - humanly speaking.

 

[Stonehaven]

Stonehaven, you have made that point, but it irrelevant to who repopulates the earth. It is the survivors of the Great Tribulation who will repopulate the earth.

How many persons from Jacob's clan went down into Egypt and how man came out in the Exodus?



Therein, lies the problem. You have it fixed in your head what is meant by "few" as being certain number - which you have no idea of what that number is that you can pinpoint from the bible. You can't say 20, 200, 2000, 200,000, 2 million, 20 million, 200 million. Of the Jews, one could reason a third of the population will survive the great tribulation from the text in Zechariah 13:8.

Few in the Isaiah prophecy is a relevant term in regards to the population of the earth before the Great Tribulation begins and after it is over. You don't have an actual number. No-one has - humanly speaking.

The exact numbers who survive is not the key point of this conversation, but God still has free rein to destroy any country, or wipe out any group of people - Since the "few" who survive in Isaiah 24:6 have no correlation with the Martyred Christians who are from "Every nation and tribe and peoples and tongues" in Revelation 7:9 - And therefore, there is no guarantee that "Every nation and tribe" would still exist amongst the "Few" survivors in Isaiah 24:6 - Since there is no mention of "Every nation and tribe" in Isaiah 24.

This means that God would still have free rein to entirely destroy any country, or entirely destroy any group of people at the time of the Tribulation.

Since, we don't know what exactly a "Few" is, God still has free rein to destroy any number of countries, and to destroy as many people as befits only a "few" survivors.

The actual numbers are indeterminate, and the death toll is indeterminate.

So, by definition, the glass is half full, as opposed to half empty - Since it is in God's interest to kill as many people as he wants, and there is no stopping him, since there is no "Upper limit" as defined by only a "few" survivors in Isaiah 24:6.

 

[Douggg]

The exact numbers who survive is not the key point of this conversation, but God still has free rein to destroy any country, or wipe out any group of people - Since the "few" who survive in Isaiah 24:6 have no correlation with the Martyred Christians who are from "Every nation and tribe and peoples and tongues" - And therefore, there is no guarantee that "Every nation and tribe" would still exist amongst the "Few" survivors in Isaiah 24:6.

Agreed, but we don't know exactly which nations - except for the Beast's kingdom. which that being the EU will not be around, that is to say those countries under one umbrella government of the EU into the millennium. The other nations making up the kingdoms of the other 3 beasts in Daniel 7:12 will be allowed to continue into the millennium. Egypt in particular is named in Zechariah 14.

 

[Hank77]

What is true of the Son of God does not always hold true for those Raptured Christians who are destined to return to the earth with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

Since the Bible does not explicitly mention that those Christians would return with eternal incorruptible bodies.

Now, the Bible says that the Raptured Christians (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17) are different from the Martyred Christians (Revelation 6:10-11, 7:9-16) who will be "Resurrected with eternal incorruptible bodies" in 1 Corinthians 15:52, 54.

But the Bible does not say that those Raptured Christians would also be "Resurrected with eternal incorruptible bodies" - Since the Raptured Christians are different from the Martyred Christians.

Nor does the Bible say that the Raptured Christians would return to earth in their "eternal incorruptible bodies" - Since there is no mention of it in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18.

Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the Raptured Christians would return to earth in their "eternal incorruptible bodies".

Therefore, what is true of Christ does not always hold true for the Raptured Christians who are destined to return to the earth with Jesus. 1 Thessalonians 4:17

I didn't address believers bodies at all.
ONLY the Nazarene's.

 

[Stonehaven]

I didn't address believers bodies at all.
ONLY the Nazarene's.

Amen.

 

[Ron Gurley]

The SPIRITUAL removal of true believers, dead and alive, + removal of God the Holy as prophesied in 1 Thess. 4 + 1 Cor. 15 + 2 Thessalonians 2 = is the true BIBLICALLY supported doctrine of "Rapture" + "Second Coming".

There are 5 JUDGMENTS:

PLEASE: Define by reference to the Bible WHICH JUDGMENT(S) is/are being referred to:

a. JUDGMENT of the NATIONS ...("ethnos=PEOPLES=societies = sheep/goats) ...Psalm 9:19 ; Matthew 25: 31-36 f

b. JUDGMENT of the Believers' Works...1 Corinthians 3: 10-15 ; 2 Corinthians 5 : 6-10

c. The GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT
...sentencing of unbelievers...Revelation 20: 11-15 (NASB)

d. BELIEVING SURVIVORS of the GREAT TRIBULATION...Revelation 7:9-17

e. JUDGMENT of Fallen Spirits: Revelation 20:1-10

f. JUDGMENT of the NATION Israel....the Major Prophets + Matthew 19:27-31 (NASB)

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you,
he who hears My word,
and believes Him who sent Me,
has eternal (spiritual) life, and
does not come into JUDGMENT, (of spiritual position)
but has passed out of death into (eternal spiritual) life.

John 3
18 He who believes in Him is NOT judged;
(as to spiritual position)
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

AFTER THE MILLENIUM REIGN ON EARTH + SATAN RELEASED:

The earth will be destroyed by fire to usher in the final NEW: Heaven + Earth + Jerusalem.
2 Peter 3 prophecy

 

[Ron Gurley]

All believers are promised "spirit-bodies" LIKE Jesus the God-Man WITHOUT ANY needs of the "flesh"...(sarx,soma)without ANY needs of their old deceased Body / Soul combo...their old "dust".

1 Corinthians 15: 42-49 (NASB) ...Jesus' Resurrection promises all believers a "spiritual body"

Philippians 3 : 10, 20 (NIV1984) Jesus: "glorious body"

1 John 3:2

Romans 6:5

Romans 8:11

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead,
they neither marry nor are given in marriage,
but are LIKE angels in heaven. (spirit beings)

 

[BABerean2]

All believers are promised "spirit-bodies" LIKE Jesus the God-Man WITHOUT ANY needs of the "flesh"...(sarx,soma)without ANY needs of their old deceased Body / Soul combo...their old "dust".

1 Corinthians 15: 42-49 (NASB) ...Jesus' Resurrection promises all believers a "spiritual body"

Philippians 3 : 10, 20 (NIV1984) Jesus: "glorious body"

1 John 3:2

Romans 6:5

Romans 8:11

Mark 12:25
For when they rise from the dead,
they neither marry nor are given in marriage,
but are LIKE angels in heaven. (spirit beings)

Did Adam have a body, before the fall?

Did Christ have a flesh body and did he enjoy a meal with His disciples, after His resurrection from the dead?

Would there need to be a resurrection of the dead for believers in John 5:27-30, and Revelation 11:18, if there is no need for a body?

It will not be like the body we have now.
It will be a body like His.
It will be an incorruptible body.

Mat_10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

.

 

[LastSeven]

But do you have evidence from the Bible to support this?

So I posted the evidence you asked for over a week ago but you haven't addressed it at all. I suppose no matter how strong my evidence is you've already predetermined that you're going to ignore it. Am I wrong?

 

[Stonehaven]

So I posted the evidence you asked for over a week ago but you haven't addressed it at all. I suppose no matter how strong my evidence is you've already predetermined that you're going to ignore it. Am I wrong?

NO, I simply haven't had time to answer ANY of the respondents on this thread.

Bear with me and you will receive a proper answer in due course.