Praying to Saints

[BNR32FAN]

Where does is say, in The Bible, "Everything has to be in The Bible"?

Why was the Bible written? To preserve the teachings of the apostles

 

[BobRyan]

No. The word pray has always meant "to ask a favor of",

Were that true the RCC would have no restrictions on "praying to the living"

 

[Brian Sellers]

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

"Why not pray directly to Jesus?"

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!"

But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of his children on earth.

I pray for my loved ones now even though I am not perfect, why would I do less once perfected in heaven at the foot of God?

Romans 8:35-39
[35]Then who will separate us from the love of Christ? Tribulation? Or anguish? Or famine? Or nakedness? Or peril? Or persecution? Or the sword?
[36]For it is as it has been written: "For your sake, we are being put to death all day long. We are being treated like sheep for the slaughter."
[37]But in all these things we overcome, because of him who has loved us.
[38]For I am certain that neither death, nor life, nor Angels, nor Principalities, nor Powers, nor the present things, nor the future things, nor strength,
[39]nor the heights, nor the depths, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mark 12:25-27
[25]For when they will be resurrected from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but they are like the Angels in heaven.
[26]But concerning the dead who rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how God spoke to him from the bush, saying: 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?'
[27]He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Therefore, you have gone far astray."

Pray in confidence with one another, with your earthly brothers and sisters as well as with those who have gone before you marked with the sign of faith. For God's love and grace is not limited by time and space, nor by shallow souls or the deep abyss. HIS love and power surpasses human understanding. To be like God, which we are commanded to do, you must remove the earthly scales from your eyes so you may begin to see as God sees, know as God knows, forgive as God forgives and love as God loves. Quit thinking as the world does.

 

[BobRyan]

No. The word pray has always meant "to ask a favor of",

Were that true the RCC would have no restrictions on "praying to the living" -- what is more no body does this in the Bible when it comes to praying to the dead.

 

[BNR32FAN]

We’re getting way off topic here

 

[BNR32FAN]

As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints." But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.

We are explicitly told by John that the incense they offer to God are the prayers of the saints. Prayers are not physical things and cannot be physically offered to God. Thus the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God mentally. In other words, they are interceding.

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Tim. 2:5).

But asking one person to pray for you in no way violates Christ’s mediatorship, as can be seen from considering the way in which Christ is a mediator. First, Christ is a unique mediator between man and God because he is the only person who is both God and man. He is the only bridge between the two, the only God-man. But that role as mediator is not compromised in the least by the fact that others intercede for us. Furthermore, Christ is a unique mediator between God and man because he is the Mediator of the New Covenant (Heb. 9:15, 12:24), just as Moses was the mediator (Greek mesitas) of the Old Covenant (Gal. 3:19–20).

The intercession of fellow Christians—which is what the saints in heaven are—also clearly does not interfere with Christ’s unique mediatorship because in the four verses immediately preceding 1 Timothy 2:5, Paul says that Christians should interceed: "First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. This is good, and pleasing to God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:1–4). Clearly, then, intercessory prayers offered by Christians on behalf of others is something "good and pleasing to God," not something infringing on Christ’s role as mediator.

"Why not pray directly to Jesus?"

The answer is: "Of course one should pray directly to Jesus!"

But that does not mean it is not also a good thing to ask others to pray for one as well. Ultimately, the "go-directly-to-Jesus" objection boomerangs back on the one who makes it: Why should we ask any Christian, in heaven or on earth, to pray for us when we can ask Jesus directly? If the mere fact that we can go straight to Jesus proved that we should ask no Christian in heaven to pray for us then it would also prove that we should ask no Christian on earth to pray for us.

Praying for each other is simply part of what Christians do. As we saw, in 1 Timothy 2:1–4, Paul strongly encouraged Christians to intercede for many different things, and that passage is by no means unique in his writings. Elsewhere Paul directly asks others to pray for him (Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1), and he assured them that he was praying for them as well (2 Thess. 1:11). Most fundamentally, Jesus himself required us to pray for others, and not only for those who asked us to do so (Matt. 5:44).

Since the practice of asking others to pray for us is so highly recommended in Scripture, it cannot be regarded as superfluous on the grounds that one can go directly to Jesus. The New Testament would not recommend it if there were not benefits coming from it. One such benefit is that the faith and devotion of the saints can support our own weaknesses and supply what is lacking in our own faith and devotion. Jesus regularly supplied for one person based on another person’s faith (e.g., Matt. 8:13, 15:28, 17:15–18, Mark 9:17–29, Luke 8:49–55). And it goes without saying that those in heaven, being free of the body and the distractions of this life, have even greater confidence and devotion to God than anyone on earth.

Also, God answers in particular the prayers of the righteous. James declares: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects. Elijah was a man of like nature with ourselves and he prayed fervently that it might not rain, and for three years and six months it did not rain on the earth. Then he prayed again and the heaven gave rain, and the earth brought forth its fruit" (Jas. 5:16–18). Yet those Christians in heaven are more righteous, since they have been made perfect to stand in God’s presence (Heb. 12:22-23), than anyone on earth, meaning their prayers would be even more efficacious.

Having others praying for us thus is a good thing, not something to be despised or set aside. Of course, we should pray directly to Christ with every pressing need we have (cf. John 14:13–14). That’s something the Catholic Church strongly encourages. In fact, the prayers of the Mass, the central act of Catholic worship, are directed to God and Jesus, not the saints. But this does not mean that we should not also ask our fellow Christians, including those in heaven, to pray with us.

In addition to our prayers directly to God and Jesus (which are absolutely essential to the Christian life), there are abundant reasons to ask our fellow Christians in heaven to pray for us. The Bible indicates that they are aware of our prayers, that they intercede for us, and that their prayers are effective (else they would not be offered). It is only narrow-mindedness that suggests we should refrain from asking our fellow Christians in heaven to do what we already know them to be anxious and capable of doing.

The Bible directs us to invoke those in heaven and ask them to pray with us. Thus in Psalms 103, we pray, "Bless the Lord, O you his angels, you mighty ones who do his word, hearkening to the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all his hosts, his ministers that do his will!" (Ps. 103:20-21). And in Psalms 148 we pray, "Praise the Lord! Praise the Lord from the heavens, praise him in the heights! Praise him, all his angels, praise him, all his host!" (Ps. 148:1-2).

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, we read: "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

And those in heaven who offer to God our prayers aren’t just angels, but humans as well. John sees that "the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints" (Rev. 5:8). The simple fact is, as this passage shows: The saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of his children on earth.

I pray for my loved ones now even though I am not perfect, why would I do less once perfected in heaven at the foot of God?

Romans 8:35-39
[35]Then who will separate us from the love of Christ? Tribulation? Or anguish? Or famine? Or nakedness? Or peril? Or persecution? Or the sword?
[36]For it is as it has been written: "For your sake, we are being put to death all day long. We are being treated like sheep for the slaughter."
[37]But in all these things we overcome, because of him who has loved us.
[38]For I am certain that neither death, nor life, nor Angels, nor Principalities, nor Powers, nor the present things, nor the future things, nor strength,
[39]nor the heights, nor the depths, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Mark 12:25-27
[25]For when they will be resurrected from the dead, they shall neither marry, nor be given in marriage, but they are like the Angels in heaven.
[26]But concerning the dead who rise again, have you not read in the book of Moses, how God spoke to him from the bush, saying: 'I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?'
[27]He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. Therefore, you have gone far astray."

Pray in confidence with one another, with your earthly brothers and sisters as well as with those who have gone before you marked with the sign of faith. For God's love and grace is not limited by time and space, nor by shallow souls or the deep abyss. HIS love and power surpasses human understanding. To be like God, which we are commanded to do, you must remove the earthly scales from your eyes so you may begin to see as God sees, know as God knows, forgive as God forgives and love as God loves. Quit thinking as the world does.

Revelations 5:8 refers to prayers of the Saints not to them.

 

[JF Seabastian]

I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

They do not pray to saints. They ask the saints to pray to God for them. It’s intercessory prayer.
Have you ever asked someone to pray for you? Have you ever lost someone who was close to you who often prayed for you? Do you think that person stopped asking God to help you in your life?

When people ask for prayer, they ask people who either love them or are devout. Saints are people who have lived devout lives and reality changing miracles have been granted by God in response to their faithful prayer. People ask those saints, who they believe are in the presence of God, to add their prayers to their own and others. They know the saints are not responsible for miracles.

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

Some value tradition over the scripture... traditionally Catholicism and I guess a few other faiths have prayed to saints

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

I am 65 years old, but it was just a few days ago, on this forum, someone explained to me for the first time that there are people who pray to saints. Why don't these people pray to God instead?

Some value tradition over the scripture... traditionally Catholicism and I guess a few other faiths have prayed to saints

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In The Bible.....The Commandments are not numbered.
So there is no right or wrong numbering.
You are placing your (Protestant) Tradition above The Bible.....and looking for suspiciously for evil where there is none.
And bear in mind The Lutherans have the same numbering as Catholics, so this should not be a Catholic/Protestant issue

RE The Use of Statues
I have answered this fully (& biblically) in Post 440
If you disagree with anything please reply to that Post

Well, I am not Protestant. Most Protestants believe in Once Saved Always Saved. But both Catholics and Protestants make lists for the 10 Commandments that were on the tablets of stone. These commands are not imaginary. Even God makes a list of commands. He said there is a first and second greatest commandment.

 

[wilts43]

Here is a rather lengthy article I wrote on this one.

A Biblical Defense of Sola Scriptura!

Sola Scriptura is the position that you can trust Scripture and Scripture alone as your sole authority for your faith and life. That the revelation known as the Bible can be trusted as your final word of authority for knowing God, salvation, true love, right living, and truth. Now, while there may be other books, letters, or epistles mentioned in Scripture that we don't have currently, they are not a part of the cannon of God's Word today, for there is no other written texts or revelations that is needed besides the Bible for all spiritual matters. For the Bible is unlike any other book in human history. It is clearly a book that is divine in origin that is backed up by many evidences in Science and History.

Now, some might object and point out that you can't prove Sola Scriptura from Scripture because such a position wouldn't have existed until the close of Revelation because the apostles were still speaking and writing the Word of God. However, that is not Sola Scriptura, though. Sola Scriptura is putting your faith in the written Word of God and believing it is suffient for all matters concerning one's faith in God. But what about the spoken Word of God? Does that not conflict with Sola Scriptura? No. First, the spoken Word of God was confirmed by the written Word of God (Acts of the Apostles 17:11). Second, one truth (the Spoken Word of God) was not in conflict with another truth (i.e. the Written Word of God). They both breathed in harmony until one passed away. In other words, picture it in your mind that there are two branches or sticks. One branch represents the Spoken Word and the other branch represents the Written Word. Now imagine one of those branches starting to vanish away out of thin air until it is gone. Is the one branch that remains any different just because the other branch is gone? Yeah, but wouldn't Sola Scriptura only exist until after the close of Revelation with Revelation 22:18-19 because you can't add anymore words to God's Word? No. This is not an exclusive teaching within Scripture; For the Bible teaches elsewhere that we are not to add to the written Word of God, too (Deuteronomy 4:2) (Deuteronomy 12:32) (Proverbs 30:5-6).

Anyways, the purpose of this study is to provide passages to help the reader in possessing Scripture so that they can trust in one divinely inspired written revelation or book (i.e. the Bible) for all spiritual matters in regards to having love, faith, and salvation in Him.

Also, before we examine this study, it is important to note that there are 3 major Words spoken about within Scripture that are connected to one another. There is the:

(1) Living Word of God (Jesus),
(2) Spoken Word of God (Either from God or His people),
(3) Written Word of God (Scripture).

All three are perfect and will endure for forever.
All three are tied together and are always connected.

The Biblical Case for Sola Scriptura:

I. All Scripture is Profitable for Doctrine, Correction, Righteous Teaching.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works."

A. All Scripture is profitable:

(a) for doctrine, (because)
~ (1) Scripture is sufficient for eternal life (1 John 5:13).
(b) for correction (and)
(c) for instruction in righteousness,
(It is sufficient in righteous training because):
~ (1) Scripture brings about hope (faith). (Romans 15:4).
~ (2) Scripture can be hid within one's heart so as not to sin against God. (Psalms 119:11)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God:
(d) May be perfect.
(e) Completely furnished unto all good works.
~ (1) For speaking Scripture provides spiritual nutrition or life (Matthew 4:4)
~ (2) For Scripture brings about joy (1 John 1:4)
(In fact, one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy) (Galatians 5:22)

All Scripture is profitable so that the man of God may be perfect andcomplete unto all good works. For Scripture is profitable in (1) doctrine, (2)correction, and (3) training in righteousness. All three of these things are essential to a person's faith in God and will lead the man of God to beperfect and completeunto all good works. Not some good works. But allgood works. No oral Words of God alone were ever mentioned to do such a thing for us currently or during the time the "Written Word of God" came into being. No "Spoken Word of God" was ever mentioned to make the man of God perfect and complete unto all good works in addition to Scripture. This shows us that Scripture and Scripture alone is sufficient in and of itself because it will lead the man of God unto perfection and being fully furnished unto every good work.

For man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of his mouth that is from God. This is to live spiritually. For it is how one's faith even begins. So we gain faith and a life with God. We gain spiritual nutrients from speaking God's Word, whereby we can grow spiritually so as to conform to the image of Christ in being perfect and to allow Christ to do every good work within us. For you are what you eat. For the seed of the Word took root within your heart when you first believed and it grows within you to bring forth much fruit. However, how can you believe or grow if there is no "Written Word of God" which is nailed down in written form for all to agree?

II. Do Not Add or Take Away or Go Beyond What is Written:

A. Do Not Add or Take Away From God's Word -

Revelation 22:18-19
"For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

Before you say it, yes, I am aware that Revelation 22:18-19 is speaking in context of the book of Revelation. However, we have to think about this logically, though. If you can't add any words to the book of Revelation, then you can't add any words to the Bible, too. Why? Well, the book of Revelation is the end of the Bible. It is the close of the whole book known as the Bible. It is the end. This is why I believe Revelation 22:18-19 is prophetic in the fact that it has a secondary fulfillment of speaking about "this book" in reference to "Revelation" in being a part of the book known as the Bible. How so? Well, there are several passages that have a double fulfillment to them. Here is one them:

Hosea 11:1
"When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

First Fulfillment (That was in the Past):
Reference to the exodus of the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt.

Secondary Fulfillment (That was in the Future):
Reference to the Love of God calling his Son back to the comparative safety in Egypt so that he might die for his people. Matthew 2:15 - "that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Also, in Revelation 2-3, Jesus gives His assessment of various churches. In these chapters, Jesus spoke of real churches that existed at the time when John written the book of Revelation, but also to the spiritual state of churches thru out time and today, too. For one of the churches is told to repent or they will go thru the tribulation. For obviously there has been Luke warm churches thru out history and today like the Laodician church.

Besides, there are hundreds of double fulfillment passages in the Bible. How so? Well, the "Typifications of Christ" in the Old Testament are essentially double fulfillment type passages (See this forum thread here to check them out). In fact, Jesus said, "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." (John 5:39). In other words, the OT Scriptures are a double fulfilment. For the Old Testament Scriptures spoke of the events of it's time and they also spoke about Jesus Christ, too; For Jesus said so Himself.

Also, consider the prophecy in the book of Daniel which was to seal up vision and prophecy versus the prophecy of the book of Revelation which is not sealed.

~ Daniel's End Times prophecy speaks of the events in Revelation. These prophecies of the End Times (that were in a book, i.e. scroll) were to be sealed up and closed (Daniel 12:4) because they were a far way off because Jesus still needed to come to save His people from their sins.

Revelation 22:10 mentions the spirit of prophecy that the book is open.

~ Now, the book is open whereby the things within Revelation (That Daniel also talks about) is exposed so that it will be fulfilled in bringing in the End with Christ's return.

For the entire book of Revelation is about the End Times leading up to Christ's return.

For the end of Revelation closes with Jesus saying,

"Surely I come quickly." (Revelation 22:20).

This means that we should be looking to Jesus return and not some new Revelation.

Paul said if we or an angel from heaven preach to you another gospel, let him be accursed (Galatians 1:8). It is strange that both the Mormon and the Muslim religion are founded on a revelation that comes from angels. Yet the Bible warns against this very thing.

In fact, Jesus Christ commanded that we as believers were to preach this gospel unto all the world (or all nations) until Christ's return.

Matthew 24:14
"And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come."

This is also what we see in Revelation. For this same gospel message was still going out to every nation, kindred, tongue, and people (That is still an ongoing process today).

Revelation 14:6
"And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,"

In other words, God knew that the book of Revelation was going to be a part of the Bible. For surely God does not want us accepting new revelations or additional written works to add to the Bible like with the book of Mormon, the Koran, the added oral traditions of the RCC (Roman Catholic Church), and or the added writings of the Jehovah's Witnesses. For it is not a coincidence that this warning in Revelation 22 is at the close of our Bibles. In other words, the new reader (Who is unaware that the Bible is made up of 66 books) would understand that you are not to add or subtract from the book (i.e. the Bible) that they were reading. For God obviously intended Scripture to be compiled into one book known as the Bible. For Christians today do regard the Bible as one book, for it is published as one book and it is not generally published into 66 individual books or a 66 book volume set. There are no 66 individual old manuscripts in their original form anymore; And God does not exist in the past abiding with these old manuscripts. These manuscripts are dead and gone. For they were written in a language that is dead. All these things are in the past. However, our God is not a God who just exists in the past. Our God is present and ever active with His people today. For our God is not the God of the dead but of the living. He works with His people who are alive with the written Revelation known as the Bible. Adding any new words to that revelation would be adding to God's Holy written Word as it currently exists with His people who live today.

B. Warning Against Altering God's Word is Confirmed in Old Testament:

Forbidding in altering God's Word in Revelation 22:18-19 can also be seen in Deuteronomy 4:2 and Deuteronomy 12:32 which says not to add or take away from the words of God's commands. This was the written Word. The Law. God did not want His words being changed or altered in any way by adding or taking away from His words. In fact, if somebody were to try and destroy God's Word, we see that God would protect or preserve His Word. We see an example of this in Jeremiah 36:22-32where king Jehoiakim burns the scroll in a fire (i.e. to eliminate God's Word) and then later God has Jeremiah re-create another roll that says the same thing. In other words, the written Word could not be destroyed by fire, just as the Living Word cannot be destroyed by fire. For the fourth who was in the fiery furnace with Daniel's friends was the Son of God (Daniel 3:25). For even when Moses had broken or shattered the tablets of stone that had the direct hand written Word of God (i.e. the Ten Commandments) on it (Exodus 32:19), the Lord our God had hand written them down on tablets of stone again (Exodus 34:1). For the Word of God cannot be broken (John 10:35). For Jesus said, "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." (Matthew 24:35). Meaning, that Christ's words would be memorialized by being written down where they would not pass away (or be deleted by men).

C. Do Not Go Above What is Written on how we think about men:

The Bible says we are not to go above that which is written (concerning our thoughts of men). Granted, this verse is not all inclusive to the fact that we are not to go above Scripture on other matters, but what this passage does is show us a pattern that Scripture and Scripture alone is our sole authority on the faith and spiritual matters. It confirms that we are not to add or take away from God's Word.

1 Corinthians 4:6
"And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another."

III. Scripture Can Help us to Know the Certainty of Christ's Teachings.

Luke sets out an order of declaration amongst the ministers of the Word to write out the events in order to Theophilus so that he might know for certain of the truth (on Christ's teachings) which he had been instructed.

Luke 1:1-4
"Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us, Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus, That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed."

IV. Christ quotes Scripture as an authority:

In all Jesus' teachings He referred to the divine authority of the Old Testament (Matthew 5:17-18; Matthew 8:17; Matthew 12:40-42; Luke 4:18-21; Luke 10:25-28; Luke 15:29-31; Luke 17:32; Luke 24:25-45; John 5:39-47). He quoted the Old Testament 78 times, the Pentateuch alone 26 times. He quoted from Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, Psalms, Proverbs, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Hosea, Amos, Jonah, Micah, and Malachi. He referred to the Old Testament as “The Scriptures,” “the word of God,” and “the wisdom of God.” Jesus defeated the devil by using Scripture. For three words, "It is written" was said 3 times by Jesus in Matthew 4:1-11. This is confirmed by Ephesians 6 with how the Sword of the Spirit is the Word of God which is a part of putting on the armor of God so that one can stand against the wiles of the devil (Ephesians 6:11, Ephesians 6:16). For the Living Word (Jesus) is like a two edged sword that divides asunder the soul and the spirit because He always speaks the words of God because He is God (Hebrews 4:12).

V. Spoken Word is confirmed by the Written Word. Acts 17:11

In Acts 17:11, we learn that the Bereans were more noble because they received the "Spoken Word of God" from Paul and Silas with an open mind but yet they searched the Scriptures (i.e. the Written Word of God) to see whether those things were so or not. So the "Spoken Word" is confirmed by the "Written Word." So the "Written Word" is a reliable authority that we can trust. For even Philip opened the heart of the Ethiopian’s understanding from a reading in Isaiah (Thereby confirming the Written Word of God) (Acts 8:26-35). Jesus had opened the disciple's understanding on the Scriptures when He was with them (Luke 24:32); And Paul had told the Corinthians that their words that they speak in Christ (i.e. the Spoken Word of God) were not like as with many others who had corrupted the Word of God (i.e. the Written Word of God) (2 Corinthians 2:17).

VI. 1 Corinthians 14:37 - What Paul had written is the Lord's commandments.

Paul had written to the Corinthians about how if anyone thought of themselves as spiritual or a prophet, they were to know that what he had written unto them was the Lord's commandments (1 Corinthians 14:37). In other words, the "Written of God" that came from Paul was the Lord's Commandments; And by the authority of the Lord: Paul gave commands to the brethren in doing many things (1 Corinthians 7:10) (2 Thessalonians 3:4, 6, 12) (1 Timothy 4:11) (1 Timothy 6:11, 12, 13, 14).

VII. The spoken/written Word is standard by which Jesus will Judge All Men.

John 12:48 essentially says, Christ will judge us by His Word in the last day.
Christ's spoken words have been memorialized within the Holy Scriptures for us to have faith in them. His words within the Bible will judge us in the last day.

In fact, the unsaved dead will be judged by their works at the Great White Throne Judgment in this life by what is written in various books of Judgment (Revelation 20:12). This shows us that the written Word of God has power and authority to judge just as the books of Judgment have power and authority to judge a person's actions on the last day.

For all believers will be judged by the Law of Liberty (James 2:12). This is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2) and or the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2) or the royal Law of love under the New Testament (James 2:8) (Romans 13:8-10).

VIII. John's Gospel is sufficient alone for saving faith in Jesus Christ.

What is purpose of John's book or gospel?

John 20:30-31 says,
"And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name."

Did you catch that? It essentially says these things (Within the book of John) are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ and that we might have life (eternal life) through his name. In other words, a person can receive eternal life or salvation in Jesus Christ by reading the book of John. This is the "Written of God." In other words, this shows that the "Written Word of God" alone is sufficient to bring us to saving faith in God.

Her's my reply-Article...
"Sola Scriptura" is 16th Century "invention of man.


(1)Sola Scriptura is an actually an ANTI-Scriptural use of scripture...........
You mis-use (2Tim 3:16)
"All Scripture is God-breathed and IS USEFUL for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
(a) Paul tells Timothy, "All scripture (He meant the OT) is useful"! .......
NOT definitive, NOT all-encompassing. NOT all-sufficient!

(b)NB Paul says "All" scripture not "Only" scripture.
Many misread this.
"ALL statements" are categorically different than "ONLY statements"

(c)Paul was referring to the Old Testament. The New was not written nor collated.

(d)If you make him mean "only" (The OT), then there could never be a New Testament.
He would be saying ...."Only The Tanakh is God-Breathed"

(e)It takes a higher authority than Paul, to take his letter here, & say it is inspired.

(2)"Sola Scriptura" (Bible-alone) is NOWHERE in The BIble.
So it is a self-defeating assertion!
It fails its own test.....it ISN'T in the Bible.....SO; IT'S NOT TRUE!

If you did "stick to the bible" you will believe The Catholic Church (not the Bible) "IS THIS PILLAR & BUTTRESS OF TRUTH"(1 Timothy 3:15)

(3) "Bible-Alone" necessitates ANOTHER authority
Because "Bible-Alone" is not in The Bible you are relying on ANOTHER authority or tradition (Who/What?) to invent the phrase "Bible Alone".
(It was invented by Martin Luther 1500 years after Christ!)
So you then have; Bible-(NOT-alone)+Luther/Calvin/Zwingli/My-Pastor etc.

(4)An infallible Compilation requires an infallible Compiler.
Because the Bible is not a book, but a SELECTIVE COMPENDIUM of many books, "The Bible" can't even tell you itself which books should be in it!
You need ANOTHER authority to do this!
So that's the end of Sola scriptura

A river cannot flow higher than its source.
The Authority of The Church precedes the authority of scripture.
And the authority of scripture rests upon the authority of the Church that selected its contents & tells us what it is. They had to interpret infallibly to select infallibly.

The Bible came from The Catholic Church. The Church did not come from The Bible.
The Bible is a product & selection of Bishops of The Catholic Church.
If they were/are not infallible then you do not have an infallibly compiled Bible.

Some Protestant scholars agree that they have "A fallible list of infallible books" ...Which means you've got NO CERTAIN WORD OF GOD AT ALL.....because you have no certainty whether you have all (or any) of the right books in or out!

Early Protestants knew this problem.
Calvin resorted to saying that scripture was "self-authenticating"
This is exactly what Mormons (or Muslims) say The Book of Mormon (or Koran) does.
This does not remove the fallible ego, & bias of the reader, from the judgement.

(5) Sola Scriptura is unworkable intellectually
As at 2013 there were 45000 Protestant "denominations" growing at 2+/day.
They all have The Bible.
They all claim The Holy Spirit's guidance.
They all disagree what the Bible says.

(6)Sola Scriptura is unworkable practically...requiring

(i) the existence of the printing press,

(ii) the universal distribution of Bibles,

(iii) universal literacy,

(iv) the universal possession of scholarly support materials,

(v) the universal possession of adequate time for study,

(vi) universal adequate health, education & nutrition for study.



(7)Sola Scriptura is actually CONTRADICTED in The NT many times

Christ never wrote a book.
He never said "Go & write...."
He never built The Printing Press with his tools, nor wait for its invention to be born. Instead He sent out His Apostles with authority, they ordained others & successors.
That is The Catholic Church.

This was an ORAL TRADITION. Later SOME was written down
To underline this, Paul tells us many times it is... "The (Apostolic) TRADITION" which is THE WHOLE .....scripture is THE PART
"Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you" (1 Cor 11:2)
"Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter" (2 Thess 2:15)
"Shun those acting not according to tradition" (2 Thess 3:6)
"No prophecy is a matter of private" interpretation (2 Pet 1:20)
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be
written. Amen." (John 21:25) ie Oral Tradition
"In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (Acts 20:35) Paul clearly refers to oral tradition.....since these words of Jesus are not in The Gospels
"the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)

(8)The Bible is manifestly NOT

(a) A Theology Textbook

(b) A Catechism

(c) A How-To(Start-a-Church)-Book.

Yet this is how Sola Scriiptura forces many Protestants treat it

In fact The Bible is The-Family-History & Reference-Library of The Catholic Church (Which is Judaism-Fulfilled or Post-Messianic-Judaism.)

That's why it is a Compendium, or Library, of many diverse writings..... Books, Letters, Songs, Proverbs, Poems, Histories & other genres, .....written over a vast span of time, with many, varied human authors.....which The Catholic Church selected as also Divinely Inspired.

(9)Sola Scriptura is never actually practised.

If the Bible was self-interpreting, once we had literacy, the printing press & cheap bibles we would need no teaching.
But the Protestant rebellion was totally based around "new teachers", each with their own new religion & interpretation, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Smyth, Fox, Taize-Russell...& thousands more.
If the Bible was self-interpreting, they would have been out of a job, as would every Protestant Pastor.
Apparently it takes hours of sermons & studies each week to be able to interpret scripture for yourself!
The truth is Protestants are intensively taught to interpret scripture.... according to new, man-made Protestant traditions. So it is "Bible +Teachers" not "Bible-Alone"

Timothy foresaw this......
(Tim 4:2-4) "For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths"

As did Peter....
"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.” (2 Peter 3:15-17) Peter (The Rock) is "your secure position"

(10) Sola Scriptura can be Idolatrous

The Bible itself says that "The Word of God" & "the fullness of revelation" is the person Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 1:1-3a; Colossians 1:15; John 14:9).
Protestants routinely say "The Bible alone" is "The Word of God" & "the fullness of revelation"
Replacing God as the object of faith with a created thing (even a Divinely-created thing, like the Bible!) is the heart of idolatry.

There are specious arguments to justify Sola Scriptura based on "The Apostolic Church" only being a contingency....until we got The Bible. But these are not Biblical....so they deny what they are trying to prove.
There are no grounds in The Bible for any change in The Apostolic Church Jesus founded upon Peter (matt 16:18-19) and guaranteed would NEVER fail, and the succesion of which is demonstrated in Acts & continues immediately afterwards in the Early Apostolic Fathers such as Ignatius. (See his Epistle to the Smyrneans circa 107 AD)

There is not a solitary argument for sola scriptura
It is a baseless 16th Century assertion. It is just plucked from thin air, and repeated as a Mantra until it is so ingrained it is never questioned.
And when challenged about the baseless authority of Sola scriptura, the usual response is equally unsupported negative arguments..."Well, it CAN'T be the Catholic Church or The Pope".
Another question-begging assumption is that....
"The Bible is a Theological Textbook intended to answer every question."
The Bible obviously isn't designed or intended for this purpose; there is no basis for it; and it just doesn't work ....and yet still this blind, knee-jerk, reflex-thinking carries on.

This is the assumption behind all Protestant theologising ....that is never demonstrated.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Wrong. The Roman Catholic church came into being in 312 A.D... (And I use the word "Church" lightly.) Believers were first called "Christians" in Antioch (Acts 11:26), the Book of Acts was written in 80–90 AD.

When did 'believers' become a title?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Some value tradition over the scripture... traditionally Catholicism and I guess a few other faiths have prayed to saints

The scriptures do not condemn praying to saints. It’s kneeling before statues that is prohibited by the scriptures. Kneeling before statues is not necessary for prayer.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Her's my reply-Article...
"Sola Scriptura" is 16th Century "invention of man.


(1)Sola Scriptura is an actually an ANTI-Scriptural use of scripture...........
You mis-use (2Tim 3:16)
"All Scripture is God-breathed and IS USEFUL for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness"
(a) Paul tells Timothy, "All scripture (He meant the OT) is useful"! .......
NOT definitive, NOT all-encompassing. NOT all-sufficient!

(b)NB Paul says "All" scripture not "Only" scripture.
Many misread this.
"ALL statements" are categorically different than "ONLY statements"

(c)Paul was referring to the Old Testament. The New was not written nor collated.

(d)If you make him mean "only" (The OT), then there could never be a New Testament.
He would be saying ...."Only The Tanakh is God-Breathed"

(e)It takes a higher authority than Paul, to take his letter here, & say it is inspired.

(f)"Sola Scriptura" (Bible-alone) is NOWHERE in The BIble.
So it is a self-defeating assertion!
It fails its own test.....it ISN'T in the Bible.....SO; IT'S NOT TRUE!

If you did "stick to the bible" you will believe The Catholic Church (not the Bible) "IS THIS PILLAR & BUTTRESS OF TRUTH"(1 Timothy 3:15)

(2) "Bible-Alone" necessitates ANOTHER authority
Because "Bible-Alone" is not in The Bible you are relying on ANOTHER authority or tradition (Who/What?) to invent the phrase "Bible Alone".
(It was invented by Martin Luther 1500 years after Christ!)
So you then have; Bible-(NOT-alone)+Luther/Calvin/Zwingli/My-Pastor etc.

(3)An infallible Compilation requires an infallible Compiler.
Because the Bible is not a book, but a SELECTIVE COMPENDIUM of many books, "The Bible" can't even tell you itself which books should be in it!
You need ANOTHER authority to do this!

A river cannot flow higher than its source.
The Authority of The Church precedes the authority of scripture.
And the authority of scripture rests upon the authority of the Church that selected its contents & tells us what it is. They had to interpret infallibly to select infallibly.

The Bible came from The Catholic Church. The Church did not come from The Bible.
The Bible is a product & selection of Bishops of The Catholic Church.
If they were/are not infallible then you do not have an infallibly compiled Bible.

Some Protestant scholars agree that they have "A fallible list of infallible books" ...Which means you've got NO CERTAIN WORD OF GOD AT ALL.....because you have no certainty whether you have all (or any) of the right books in or out!

Early Protestants knew this problem.
Calvin resorted to saying that scripture was "self-authenticating"
This is exactly what Mormons (or Muslims) say The Book of Mormon (or Koran) does.
This does not remove the fallible ego, & bias of the reader, from the judgement.

(4) Sola Scriptura is unworkable intellectually
As at 2013 there were 45000 Protestant "denominations" growing at 2+/day.
They all have The Bible.
They all claim The Holy Spirit's guidance.
They all disagree what the Bible says.

(5)Sola Scriptura is unworkable practically...requiring

(i) the existence of the printing press,

(ii) the universal distribution of Bibles,

(iii) universal literacy,

(iv) the universal possession of scholarly support materials,

(v) the universal possession of adequate time for study,

(vi) universal adequate health, education & nutrition for study.



(7)Sola Scriptura is actually CONTRADICTED in The NT many times

Christ never wrote a book.
He never said "Go & write...."
He never built The Printing Press with his tools, nor wait for its invention to be born. Instead He sent out His Apostles with authority, they ordained others & successors.
That is The Catholic Church.

This was an ORAL TRADITION. Later SOME was written down
To underline this, Paul tells us many times it is... "The (Apostolic) TRADITION" which is THE WHOLE .....scripture is THE PART
"Hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you" (1 Cor 11:2)
"Hold fast to traditions, whether oral or by letter" (2 Thess 2:15)
"Shun those acting not according to tradition" (2 Thess 3:6)
"No prophecy is a matter of private" interpretation (2 Pet 1:20)
"And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be
written. Amen." (John 21:25) ie Oral Tradition
"In everything I did, I showed you that by this kind of hard work we must help the weak, remembering the words the Lord Jesus himself said: ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” (Acts 20:35) Paul clearly refers to oral tradition.....since these words of Jesus are not in The Gospels
"the Church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth" (1 Timothy 3:15)

(8)The Bible is manifestly NOT

(a) A Theology Textbook

(b) A Catechism

(c) A How-To(Start-a-Church)-Book.

Yet this is how Sola Scriiptura forces many Protestants treat it

In fact The Bible is The-Family-History & Reference-Library of The Catholic Church (Which is Judaism-Fulfilled or Post-Messianic-Judaism.)

That's why it is a Compendium, or Library, of many diverse writings..... Books, Letters, Songs, Proverbs, Poems, Histories & other genres, .....written over a vast span of time, with many, varied human authors.....which The Catholic Church selected as also Divinely Inspired.

(9)Sola Scriptura is never actually practised.

If the Bible was self-interpreting, once we had literacy, the printing press & cheap bibles we would need no teaching.
But the Protestant rebellion was totally based around "new teachers", each with their own new religion & interpretation, Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Knox, Smyth, Fox, Taize-Russell...& thousands more.
If the Bible was self-interpreting, they would have been out of a job, as would every Protestant Pastor.
Apparently it takes hours of sermons & studies each week to be able to interpret scripture for yourself!
The truth is Protestants are intensively taught to interpret scripture.... according to new, man-made Protestant traditions. So it is "Bible +Teachers" not "Bible-Alone"

Timothy foresaw this......
(Tim 4:2-4) "For the time will come when men will not tolerate sound doctrine, but with itching ears they will gather around themselves teachers to suit their own desires. So they will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths"

As did Peter....
"Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. Therefore, dear friends, since you have been forewarned, be on your guard so that you may not be carried away by the error of the lawless and fall from your secure position.” (2 Peter 3:15-17) Peter (The Rock) is "your secure position"

(10) Sola Scriptura can be Idolatrous

The Bible itself says that "The Word of God" & "the fullness of revelation" is the person Jesus Christ. (Hebrews 1:1-3a; Colossians 1:15; John 14:9).
Protestants routinely say "The Bible alone" is "The Word of God" & "the fullness of revelation"
Replacing God as the object of faith with a created thing (even a Divinely-created thing, like the Bible!) is the heart of idolatry.

There are specious arguments to justify Sola Scriptura based on "The Apostolic Church" only being a contingency....until we got The Bible. But these are not Biblical....so they deny what they are trying to prove.
There are no grounds in The Bible for any change in The Apostolic Church Jesus founded upon Peter (matt 16:18-19) and guaranteed would NEVER fail, and the succesion of which is demonstrated in Acts & continues immediately afterwards in the Early Apostolic Fathers such as Ignatius. (See his Epistle to the Smyrneans circa 107 AD)

There is not a solitary argument for sola scriptura
It is a baseless 16th Century assertion. It is just plucked from thin air, and repeated as a Mantra until it is so ingrained it is never questioned.
And when challenged about the baseless authority of Sola scriptura, the usual response is equally unsupported negative arguments..."Well, it CAN'T be the Catholic Church or The Pope".
Another question-begging assumption is that....
"The Bible is a Theological Textbook intended to answer every question."
The Bible obviously isn't designed or intended for this purpose; there is no basis for it; and it just doesn't work ....and yet still this blind, knee-jerk, reflex-thinking carries on.

This is the assumption behind all Protestant theologising ....that is never demonstrated.

I skimmed what you read and seen that you said Sola Scriptura is adulterous. Yet, we do not see the majority of Christians who revere the Bible as bowing down and praying to a book. God’s Word says Scripture is a lamp unto our feet and a light unto our path. David hid God’s Word in his heart so that he would not sin against the Lord. Of course you have no case that Christians are worshiping the Bible. But you need to say this to deflect away from the fact that praying to saints and bowing down before statues is not adulterous.

 

[Mark_Sam]

Were that true the RCC would have no restrictions on "praying to the living"

Yes, we can ask eachother to pray for eachother. If you have ever asked a flesh-and-bone living human being to pray for you, then you have indeed "prayed to the saints". As we are still in this world, we are limited to actually being in the presence of those who ask us. But the saints in Heaven, by the power of the Holy Spirit, are able to hear us when we ask them, no matter where we are.

The Confiteor, a prayer of confession said at the beginning of all Masses, is a good example:

I confess to almighty God and to you, my brothers and sisters, that I have greatly sinned, in my thoughts and in my words, in what I have done and in what I have failed to do, through my fault, through my fault, through my most grievous fault; therefore I ask blessed Mary ever-Virgin, all the Angels and Saints, and you, my brothers and sisters, to pray for me to the Lord our God.

We ask the saints in Heaven, and we ask the saints around us - those who are physically present with us in the church building - to pray for us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The scriptures do not condemn praying to saints. It’s kneeling before statues that is prohibited by the scriptures. Kneeling before statues is not necessary for prayer.

It alludes that this is condemned by the fact that it is very close to necromancy in the OT. Scripture also says there is only one mediator between God and man, as well. So yes. Praying to the saints is wrong according to the Bible.

 

[BNR32FAN]

It alludes that this is condemned by the fact that it is very close to necromancy in the OT. Scripture also says there is only one mediator between God and man, as well. So yes. Praying to the saints is wrong according to the Bible.

No the verse concerning necromancy mentions the use of a medium or witchcraft. So prayers don’t fall into that category. The definition of mediator and intercession are different. A mediator is someone who intercedes in an argument or dispute for reconciliation. Intercession is someone who intervened on someone else’s behalf. Not necessarily for reconciliation.

 

[chilehed]

You're going to have to help me out a little more than that. I'm not confused with my own values of prayer but I am with the values of praying to saints.

So you know why you'd pray someone here on earth to pray for you, but you don't know why you'd pray someone in heaven to pray for you. Interesting.

But, why in the word would you think it's wrong to do it? That's what we're talking about - not whether or not you see the point, but whether or not it's wrong to do. Our bretheren in heaven aren't dead, they are alive in Christ; it's not necromancy, or divination, or any such thing; it's not an act of worship to pray someone in heaven to help us. It's exactly the same as asking help from our brethren here on earth. So why do you think it's worng?

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we can ask eachother to pray for eachother.

True but that is not what I said - I said the RCC does not allow you to pray to each other - to pray to the living.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is no biblical basis to condemn others who pray to the saints.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we can ask eachother to pray for eachother.

True but that is not what I said - I said the RCC does not allow you to pray to each other - to pray to the living.

 

[wilts43]

Well, I am not Protestant. Most Protestants believe in Once Saved Always Saved. But both Catholics and Protestants make lists for the 10 Commandments that were on the tablets of stone. These commands are not imaginary. Even God makes a list of commands. He said there is a first and second greatest commandment.

Do you define "Protestantism" on the basis of "Once saved..."
One might trace this as following from Calvin's double-predestination & the total depravity of man.....but Luther didn't hold to it.
Is not the essence of Protestantism in the "Protest" at The Catholic Church and the substitution of its Apostolic-Authority & Ecclesiology, with the Solas (which vary in number)
The supposed new authority was "Scripture Alone".
But I believe this was only tenable for Luther whilst he believed "everybody would see it his way."
But "scripture alone" turned out to be a figleaf for what the ego of every reader could find in it.
The result is Protestant Babel.

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we can ask eachother to pray for eachother.

Exodus 20 says this
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

Isaiah 8
19 When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?

Which is why there is no "communion with the DEAD" in the Bible

 

[BobRyan]

Yes, we can ask eachother to pray for eachother.

Exodus 20 says this
4 “You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. 5 You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing lovingkindness to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.