SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[Gr8Grace]

John 10:28 only applies to Jesus' sheep, who are defined in John 10:27. Context. Cease to be one of His sheep, the promise no longer applies.

Like I said. No one from the loss of salvation crowd will exegete John 10:28. They can't.

As to 'ceasing' to be one of His sheep. Yeah, lets go to context....

John 10:29~~New American Standard Bible
"My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

'has given them to me' is the perfect/active/ indicative of δεδωκεν.

The indicative mood indicates that this is absolute fact. Irrefutable. The active voice indicates that it was the Father giving the sheep to The Lord Jesus Christ. The perfect tense completely and utterly refutes the idea that His sheep can 'cease' from being sheep.

The perfect tense~~An on going result of a past completed action.Don't forget the indicative mood. It IS an on going result. And it IS a forever completed action PERIOD! New Testament Greek

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

You totally hate the peace Jesus brings and live as an instrument of animosity... who yearns to take it from others...

You’re side stepping Christ.

You have the star of Remphan in your avatar:

Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and The Star of your god Raephan, the images of them which ye made for yourselves
• Amos 5:26
Amos

You also took up the tabernacle of Moloch,
And The Star of your god Remphan,
Images which you made to worship;
And I will carry you away beyond Babylon.’
• Acts 7:43
Bible Gateway passage: Acts 7 - New King James Version

 

[Jude1:3Contendforthefaith]

You totally hate the peace Jesus brings and live as an instrument of animosity... who yearns to take it from others...

You’re side stepping Christ.

I Yearn to tell people the truth and Expose Deceivers and Tares in The Church.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Before God, He knows whether someone truly believes. Before men, it is evidenced by behaviour. So many OSAS proponents act like they are of the world and want to say that they are saved because they went forward once or had an experience. I am saying that won't cut it. They are saying you can be a saved hypocrite; the Bible is contrary to such a notion. If you are really a son and living in the world you will act like the prodigal son and return to your Father. And you will not see Him apart from holiness. Hebrews 12:14.

If any of this were true, there would be no need for any commands for holy living.

Yet the Bible is full of such commands. Refuting your claims.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"And why did Paul COMMAND believers to be filled with the Holy Spirit (Eph 5:18), to walk by means of the Holy Spirit in order to NOT fulfill the lusts of the flesh (Gal 5:16), and to quit grieving (Eph 4:30) and quenching (1 Thess 5:19) the Spirit?"

Also, that is what is required of a Christian. Are you saying that the fact that the requirement is stated means that it is never kept?

No, I am not saying that.

But my question was not answered. Of course that is what is required of a Christian. But for what purpose? To get or stay saved? Or for some other reason?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Can you still die?

I just love how all my points are missed in your responses.

But, to answer your question, OF COURSE I'll die physically, unless I'm part of the rapture generation. But when I die physically, my soul will CONTINUE TO live for all eternity in the presence of God.

Because Jesus said that whoever believes HAS eternal life. And I HAVE eternal life. NOW.

So my soul will NEVER die.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Do you want to respond to post #266? I think you may have missed it. To @FreeGrace2.

Sure.

This is your post:
"The Israelites are set forth by example as "saved" because of the blood on the doorpost: they were later destroyed. The people Jude wrote to previously understood the implications of this but had lost sight of it, and thus the fear of the Lord in their hearts."

I don't put quotes around the word saved regarding the Exodus generation because Paul made it clear that they were truly 100% saved. Not just "saved", whatever that may mean to some.

And being "later destroyed" is a direct reference to their physical death during the 40 year march for their failure to trust God to meet their needs, which has nothing to do with eternal salvation.

Even Moses failed to enter the promised land for his ONE TIME failure of obedience, which the Bible describes as breaking faith with God.

Deut 32:51 - This is because both of you broke faith with me in the presence of the Israelites at the waters of Meribah Kadesh in the Desert of Zin and because you did not uphold my holiness among the Israelites.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I want people to see your blatant lack of integrity towards foundational doctrine and the scriptures.

I believe what truly honest people are seeing from your posts is a quite unbiblical viewpoint of things.

If you have salvation by faith in Christ, then you have the hope of salvation to come, when Jesus returns.

Again, this is a direct internal contradiction. One CANNOT "have salvation" and the "hope of salvation" at the same time, which it appears you are claiming.

Kinda like having your cake and eating it too. Nope.

What you keep failing to grasp is the "hope of salvation" is a reference to the FUTURE TENSE of salvation, when we WILL BE with God in eternity. That's the confident expectation believers should have.

But, how can anyone from your viewpoint have such confident expectation of this future salvation WHEN your view is that you can lose your salvation?

Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls. 1 Peter 1:8-9

I have no problem understanding this as the PRESENT TENSE of salvation, present possession of salvation.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Quite obviously the FUTURE TENSE of salvation; eternity. When Jesus returns, all believers will be at that time IN ETERNITY.

that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Titus 3:7

Again, obviously the FUTURE TENSE of having eternal life, or actually being IN ETERNITY.

Not difficult to grasp at all.

22 But now having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness, and the end, everlasting life. 23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 6:22-23

Again, the future tense is in view. But the gift of eternal life is a PRESENT POSSESSION, as Jesus made clear in John 5:24 and 6:47.

So why don't you believe that?

 

[Acts2:38]

Hello again!

I'm happy that all is well.

Apparently (from looking back at things) I have conflated you with another person (justbyfaith) who only wanted to address entire posts in general and objected to FreeGrace2 breaking them down.

I was mistaken and that accounts for the way I posted to you. At any rate - my generalized post to you should show him now just how unproductive that kind of engagement is.

Fair enough, water under the bridge.

Here is one of your assumptions for starters:
“dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power" 2 Thess. 1:8-9

Clearly, a person must obey the gospel in order to become a believer.

Sinning after obeying the gospel is not "not obeying" the gospel. It is simply the lot in life of all men who are being sanctified over time by the work of the Holy Spirit (who will not leave or forsake them according to the promise of the Lord).

Where do you see a backsliding Christian losing his salvation in that passage?

I would be happy to explain why I have not assumed anything here.

The Koine Greek word for obey in this verse:
Strongs
ὑπακούω hypakoúō, hoop-ak-oo'-o; from G5259 and G191; to hear under (as a subordinate), i.e. to listen attentively; by implication, to heed or conform to a command or authority:—hearken, be obedient to, obey.

You may already know, but I am placing this on the table as part of the evidence.

Question: Do you obey the gospel just once by believing and your saved forever regardless?

You said:

Clearly, a person must obey the gospel in order to become a believer.

Yes, but the problem in part stems from people thinking that all they need to do is believe and this is untrue. Mark 16:16 states two conditions for being saved. Luke 13:3 also states a condition elsewhere. Combine those verses and you see that you have three conditions that need to be met.

So remember "obey/obedience", you have to "do" something. Even our own English language describes similar to the Greek definition:

"comply with the command, direction, or request of (a person or a law); submit to the authority of."

This is where I would bring James 2 into the picture

14 What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Now see the parables of "baring fruit"

John 15:1-27
Colossians 1:10
Matthew 7:16-20

None of which are assumptions at all. One can believe all they want, but without works to justify like Abraham, Noah, and the lot (Hebrews 11), ones faith is dead. Not my assumption, that's what scripture says.

You also said:

Sinning after obeying the gospel is not "not obeying" the gospel. It is simply the lot in life of all men who are being sanctified over time by the work of the Holy Spirit (who will not leave or forsake them according to the promise of the Lord).

Where do you see a backsliding Christian losing his salvation in that passage?

I'll give you a scriptural example of a sinning Christian, not obeying the gospel.

Hebrews 10:25-27
25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

That my friend, would be an example of a Christian backsliding. Again, I do not see any assumptions here at all when I stated 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

So all those supposed Christians going to the Sunday football game instead of assembling together to worship the Lord and taking the communion "in remembrance" of what Christ has done for us, yes, they are backsliding, willfully sinning according to Hebrews. Loss of salvation 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

 

[FreeGrace2]

You are saved by faith in Christ Jesus. Which means you have the hope of salvation, which is why Paul told us to put on the helmet as the hope of salvation.

I really feel sad for such confusion in your posts. I AM presently saved, and I have a confident expectation (hope) of being with God in eternity.

What do you base your hope3 of being with God in eternity on? Please answer.

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8

Obviously a FUTURE TENSE salvation. Eternity.

As long as you confess your sins, then He is faithful to forgive you.

Yes. 1 John 1:9 Count the times John used the word "fellowship" in that chapter and explain to me what he means by "fellowship" and how it relates to the Christian life.

If you depart from the faith, then you no longer have the substance of the salvation you are hoping for.

The Bible never says this. Your opinion is not supported from Scripture.

Jesus gave us the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life in John 10:28a.

When He said "I give them eternal life" He was telling us that He alone is the CAUSE of our possessing eternal life. Care to disagree and explain what He really meant?

When He said "and they shall never perish" He was telling us that the EFFECT of having eternal life is eternal security, or never perishing. Care to disagree and explain what He really meant?

I've asked literally dozens of times on different threads and in different forums of the OSNAS crowd but no one has been willing to respond.

Have you stood before His Judgement seat, and been judged according to your deeds yet?

No one has yet. Please read 2 Cor 5:10.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

Well, I haven't died yet, the last time I checked. So your question was quite off track.

10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may receive the things done in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad. 2 Corinthians 5:10

Yep.

These verses must be reconciled with others for a sound, biblical doctrine of salvation.

JLB

They have been, and been rejected without reason by the OSNAS crowd.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Amen, @JLB777. To see what I am really saying you have to follow my line of thinking in previous posts. I stated that being saved in the now means we don't harden our hearts in the now.

This opinion is not found in Scripture. What is found is that being saved in the now means having put our trust/faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. John 5:24.

Also, the Holy Spirit within true believers is an earnest guaranteeing what is to come, our future justification before the judgment seat of Christ. 2 Corinthians 1:22, 2 Corinthians 5:5, Ephesians 1:13-14.

And this sealing ministry of the Holy Spirit GUARANTEES our eternal security.

Great verses!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

No, you appear to have deemed yourself an expert on the original Greek. If you are not claiming it, then you are not, and I am right in saying you are not an expert.

Let me explain what I AM in expert in. The English language. I was born into it over 6 decades ago.

So when I read English texts on Greek grammar I fully understand what is being taught, just like ANY OTHER student of Greek.

I never said I was an expert in Greek. You've just made a very poor judgment about me.

When I speak of Greek tenses, or voices, or mood, I am speaking from what Greek grammar textbooks, written in English, say.

btw, all Greek scholars (experts) learn Greek the SAME WAY. By reading English texts about Greek.

 

[FreeGrace2]

We ought to take the word of God as authoritative over and above what we know by personal experience.

Amen to that!!

 

[Marvin Knox]

Question: Do you obey the gospel just once by believing and your saved forever regardless?

Without shadow of doubt. Assuming of course that it is true saving belief which includes a proper heart application and not just lip service.

So all those supposed Christians going to the Sunday football game instead of assembling together to worship the Lord and taking the communion "in remembrance" of what Christ has done for us, yes, they are backsliding, willfully sinning according to Hebrews. Loss of salvation 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9.

I wouldn't trade gospels with you for all the gold in all the world.

I'll just leave it at that.

 

[Ron Gurley]

Rev.1 (NASB)...CONTINUED Love...PAST Salvation: never changing or reversible
...To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood
— 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, PRIESTS to His God and Father—
to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I find it rather interesting that whenever I point out the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life as taught by Jesus in John 10:28a, and ask anyone from the OSNAS crowd to explain how Jesus wasn't teaching CAUSE and EFFECT, all I hear are crickets.

The only conclusion that I can think of is that the OSNAS crowd has no explanation for how that verse doesn't teach the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Because if they really considered the verse, they would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was teaching eternal security, from the moment one believes in Christ.

 

[JLB777]

I really feel sad for such confusion in your posts. I AM presently saved, and I have a confident expectation (hope) of being with God in eternity.

There is no confusion, only your blatant disregard for what the scriptures actually teach.

Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
Hebrews 11:1


Do you have a immortal body that will never die?

Have you stood before the Judgement Seat of Christ, to be Judged according to your deeds?

Have you been resurrected from the dead?


JLB

 

[JLB777]

I find it rather interesting that whenever I point out the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life as taught by Jesus in John 10:28a, and ask anyone from the OSNAS crowd to explain how Jesus wasn't teaching CAUSE and EFFECT, all I hear are crickets.

The only conclusion that I can think of is that the OSNAS crowd has no explanation for how that verse doesn't teach the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

Because if they really considered the verse, they would have to come to the conclusion that Jesus was teaching eternal security, from the moment one believes in Christ.

You have never pointed out the cause and effect of eternal life.

You have only quoted half of a statement regarding eternal life which is verse 28.

Attempting to build a doctrine around a half of a statement taken out of context is how false doctrine and heresy is promoted.

Verse 28 begins with the word “and” which is a conjunction that ties together the “cause” with the “effect”.


And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. Vs 28


Verse 27 is the cause.


My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. John 10:27-28


His sheep are those who hear His Voice and know Him, and who follow Him.

Those who hear and follow for a while then become lost, have returned to being sinners who are dead to God, being lost.

Just exactly like Jesus taught.

• Lost Sheep:

I say to you that likewise there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine just persons who need no repentance.
Luke 15:7

• Prodigal Son

It was right that we should make merry and be glad, for your brother was dead and is alive again, and was lost and is found.’” Luke 15:32



This foundational truth can not be changed by quoting other scriptures.


Lost = Sinner who is need of repentance; dead to God, in need of salvation, reconciliation to God.

Found = Someone is is reconciled to God; saved.



JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

There is no confusion, only your blatant disregard for what the scriptures actually teach.

I think it's quite obvious who's confused.

Do you have a immortal body that will never die?

I already answered that silly question. No one has an immortal body while on earth. Haven't you read 1 Cor 15?

Have you stood before the Judgement Seat of Christ, to be Judged according to your deeds?

Not until judgment day. What is your point?

Have you been resurrected from the dead?
JLB

No. And your questions reveal a terrible lack of biblical understanding.

 

[justbyfaith]

Jesus is indeed the cause in the CAUSE and EFFECT of John 10:28. But what does this mean? Galatians 2:20 has the answer. It means that Christ is living His life in me and through me.

Q: If Jesus is living in me and through me, will there be any sin in my life?

A: No; Jesus Christ doesn't sin.

Q: Can someone take back their life from surrender to Christ so that they are the ones living, so that sinning is possible?

A: If you have been set free, why would you want to go back to a life of slavery? I suppose it is possible; but he who does the will of God abides for ever: and whoever abides in Him doesn't sin; as has been seen through scriptures that I have already referenced in this thread. 1 John 2:17, 1 John 3:6.