SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

[BNR32FAN]

I don't believe anyone has argued from the pov you're pointing out.

I think all in this discussion understand that a "saved" person is a person who has believed in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation. And as such, they have been forgiven "once for all", they are adopted as sons, they are justified, and they possess the gift of eternal life per John 5;24 and 6:47, and on that basis, of being recipients of eternal life, shall never perish, per John 10:28a.

I would agree they are forgiven once and for all provided they do not renounce their faith and turn from God.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the immediate context of that sin, it was Pharisees, who had actually SEEN the miracles of Jesus themselves, and then attributing those miracles to the devil.

That particular sin cannot be committed today since no one is able to see Jesus performing miracles.

So if some of the Pharisees believed Jesus’ miracles were from the devil but then later realized they were from God and turned to Christ would they still not be forgiven?

 

[Acts2:38]

Unless the passage clearly states being "cut off" from salvation, there is no reason to make this assumption.

Hello. Hope the day finds you well.

This is exactly what I was talking about as far as changing the meaning.

Romans 11:22-23

"22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again."

Questions:

1- Who are those "continuing in his goodness"?
a- Christians
b- Non Christians
c- Bozo the clown (added for comedy relief)

2- Who are those which "fell" that God gives severity on?
a- Christians
b- Non Christians

2a- Can a Non Christian fall if they were never in Christ to begin with?


3- Who are the ones in verse 23 being talked about that can still be grafted in once fallen?


It is clearly, most obviously, speaking of Christians, who can fall (obviously means salvation), however they can be "grafted" back into the fold.

If one believes but does not obey the gospel they are lost just as much as the people who don't know God 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

 

[Acts2:38]

I don’t see how Galatians 1:6-9 is relevant to what I said. Can you please explain?

You asked "why does all this" discussion matter to sum it up. It matters because if one is teaching "a different gospel" other than the one taught by Jesus and the apostles, they would be accursed.

This is why we discuss with each other, because one doctrine of beliefs here is wrong, so we use scripture to help show others why it is wrong.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Hello. Hope the day finds you well.

This is exactly what I was talking about as far as changing the meaning.

Romans 11:22-23

"22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again."

Questions:

1- Who are those "continuing in his goodness"?
a- Christians
b- Non Christians
c- Bozo the clown (added for comedy relief)

2- Who are those which "fell" that God gives severity on?
a- Christians
b- Non Christians

2a- Can a Non Christian fall if they were never in Christ to begin with?


3- Who are the ones in verse 23 being talked about that can still be grafted in once fallen?


It is clearly, most obviously, speaking of Christians, who can fall (obviously means salvation), however they can be "grafted" back into the fold.

If one believes but does not obey the gospel they are lost just as much as the people who don't know God 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

This has made me think that possibly the meaning of Hebrew 6:4-6 is saying that it is impossible for us as Christians proclaiming the good news to bring back those who were enlightened and not necessarily impossible for that person who turned away from God to be brought back if he should choose to turn back to God. What I think this is saying is because that person already knows the gospel we as Christians cannot teach him anything he doesn’t already know so we cannot bring him back to repentance but I think that person can bring himself back to repentance if he realizes his mistake and turns back to God.

“For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭6:4-6‬

What do you think?

 

[Marvin Knox]

I don’t believe backsliding is the same as falling away as used in this specific verse.......................Jesus is always calling us back.

I agree of course.

Which is my point.

Whatever this falling away is - it can't be a Christian backsliding - even into grievous sins which bring disrepute to the name of the Lord.

Reason being that such a child of God can be brought back to repentance. Indeed - the strongest kind of church discipline, such as dis-fellowship, and even stronger discipline administered directly from the hand of God is meant to do just that.

Whereas the person addressed in this passage cannot be brought back. It is impossible.

Do we (and God) administer discipline which He has deemed impossible to bring a man to repentance? Of course not.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You asked "why does all this" discussion matter to sum it up. It matters because if one is teaching "a different gospel" other than the one taught by Jesus and the apostles, they would be accursed.

This is why we discuss with each other, because one doctrine of beliefs here is wrong, so we use scripture to help show others why it is wrong.

I think perhaps you misunderstood what I was saying. I was saying why does it matter if we cannot lose our salvation or if we can because the question in the debate about OSAS always ends up with the question was that person saved to begin with. Because the Bible does give clear examples of people who claim to believe but fall away from grace. People who believe OSAS say that person was never saved to begin with and others say he could’ve been saved and fell away. Either way if the person was saved to begin with or not is irrelevant because they did not continue in their faith they still don’t receive salvation. I do agree that we should discuss the scriptures which is why I love this site because it allows me to test my beliefs and also get a broader perspective from other Christians. So I still believe that OSAS or OSNAS is still irrelevant because we must continue in our faith until the day we die or we will not be saved.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I would agree they are forgiven once and for all provided they do not renounce their faith and turn from God.

And what Scripture teaches this? I know all the assumptions, but I'm interested in verses that say this.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So if some of the Pharisees believed Jesus’ miracles were from the devil but then later realized they were from God and turned to Christ would they still not be forgiven?

I do not take time for any of the "what if's...", but only deal with the "what is...".

And what is, is that Jesus said the Pharisees who had actually seen with their own eyes the miracles of Jesus and attrributed them to the devil had committed an unpardonable sin. That's what I know.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
"Unless the passage clearly states being "cut off" from salvation, there is no reason to make this assumption."

Hello. Hope the day finds you well.

Thanks. So far, yes.

This is exactly what I was talking about as far as changing the meaning.

I don't know what you're referring to from my comment above. I pointed out that taking "cut off" to mean loss of salvation is an assumption. So I've changed nothing.

The Bible many times uses those words to mean physical death.

Romans 11:22-23

"22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again."

Why can't "cut off" refer to God's blessings?

Questions:

1- Who are those "continuing in his goodness"?
a- Christians
b- Non Christians
c- Bozo the clown (added for comedy relief)

2- Who are those which "fell" that God gives severity on?
a- Christians
b- Non Christians

2a- Can a Non Christian fall if they were never in Christ to begin with?


3- Who are the ones in verse 23 being talked about that can still be grafted in once fallen?

1. a
2. a
2a. no
3. the same believers

It is clearly, most obviously, speaking of Christians, who can fall (obviously means salvation), however they can be "grafted" back into the fold.

There is nothing obvious about "falling" meaning loss of salvation in this passage. Such a view comes from a pretext.

If one believes but does not obey the gospel they are lost just as much as the people who don't know God 2 Thessalonians 1:8-9

When the Bible says "obey the gospel" is means to believe the promise of the Good News. Obviously.

 

[JLB777]

Please define 'end of our faith'. What does it mean and WHEN does it occur?

When you obtain the reality of your faith, in which you no longer hope for the thing but have obtained the thing you have been hoping for.


That is the principle of faith. That is how faith works.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1


As long as you have faith for something, you have the hope of obtaining the thing you have faith for.

You don't yet have have the thing you are hoping for, but you have the substance of it.


Paul explains.


24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25



But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8


We are saved now by faith in Jesus Christ, and eagerly hope for His return, to receive the salvation He promised to those who have faith.


27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28


We all must stand before Him at the Judgement.


28 Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice 29 and come forth—those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation. John 10:28-29

• those who have done good, to the resurrection of life,
• those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation.

Paul says it this way -

God who “will render to each one according to his deeds”: 7 eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; 8 but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, Romans 2:6-8

• eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality;
• but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath,

JLB

 

[FreeGrace2]

You asked "why does all this" discussion matter to sum it up. It matters because if one is teaching "a different gospel" other than the one taught by Jesus and the apostles, they would be accursed.

This is why we discuss with each other, because one doctrine of beliefs here is wrong, so we use scripture to help show others why it is wrong.

Right. And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I do not take time for any of the "what if's...", but only deal with the "what is...".

And what is, is that Jesus said the Pharisees who had actually seen with their own eyes the miracles of Jesus and attrributed them to the devil had committed an unpardonable sin. That's what I know.

Where does it say the Pharisees committed an unforgivable sin?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Right. And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed.

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-17‬

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19‬

This is what I meant by forming beliefs based on single scriptures instead of the entire teachings of the Bible.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I asked this:
"Please define 'end of our faith'. What does it mean and WHEN does it occur?"

When you obtain the reality of your faith, in which you no longer hope for the thing but have obtained the thing you have been hoping for.

Thanks for the timely response. However, the answer didn't include WHEN it occurs.

So please clarify what "when you obtain the reality of your faith" means. Then I'll be able to respond to an answer.

That is the principle of faith. That is how faith works.

So far, you've just given an opinion.

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1

Right. Faith is a verb (substance). Is your current faith substance, or are you not solid on the end result yet?

As long as you have faith for something, you have the hope of obtaining the thing you have faith for.

It seems you've confused the meaning of "faith" with "wishful thinking", the current general meaning of "hope" as used today.

But that's NOT how the Greeks would have understand or used the word 'elpiso'. To them, it meant a confident expectation of what's coming. Not just a promise with conditions to be met, as it seems you believe.

You don't yet have have the thing you are hoping for, but you have the substance of it.

Here's the problem with your opinion. Jesus SAID that those who believe HAVE (meaning possess) eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. So your opinion is in direct opposition to what Jesus taught. So who should I accept?

Paul explains.

24 For we were saved in this hope, but hope that is seen is not hope; for why does one still hope for what he sees? 25 But if we hope for what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with perseverance.
Romans 8:24-25

We were saved IN CONFIDENCE.

But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 1 Thessalonians 5:8

Confident expectation of salvation. But the OSNAS crowd doesn't have any confident expectation of their salvation because they believe it can be lost.

So where's any confidence of their salvation? The EXACT thing the Bible speaks of in the verses you've posted.

We are saved now by faith in Jesus Christ, and eagerly hope for His return, to receive the salvation He promised to those who have faith.

But it's clear from all you've posted that "hope" in the world of OSNAS only really means "wishful thinking", and certainly NOT a confident expectation.

27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation. Hebrews 9:27-28

This would be the reality of eternity, which OSAS views as a confident expectation of.

We all must stand before Him at the Judgement.

Are believers going to be judged on whether they enter heaven there? If so, please provide clear support from Scripture.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Where does it say the Pharisees committed an unforgivable sin?

In the passage that the "unpardonable sin" is mentioned.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said this:
" And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed."

And the non-responsive reply to what I said:

“What good is it, dear brothers and sisters, if you say you have faith but don’t show it by your actions? Can that kind of faith save anyone? Suppose you see a brother or sister who has no food or clothing, and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do? So you see, faith by itself isn’t enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:14-17‬

“You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:19‬

This is what I meant by forming beliefs based on single scriptures instead of the entire teachings of the Bible.

Thanks for ignoring the verses I posted. Why would anyone think the verses you've shared somehow remove the clear meaning of the verses I shared?

Anyhoo, this response did not unpack anything I posted.

If anything I posted is unbiblical, it should be easy to unpack.

 

[BNR32FAN]

In the passage that the "unpardonable sin" is mentioned.

““Anyone who isn’t with me opposes me, and anyone who isn’t working with me is actually working against me. “So I tell you, every sin and blasphemy can be forgiven—except blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which will never be forgiven. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven, either in this world or in the world to come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:30-32‬

““I tell you the truth, all sin and blasphemy can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven. This is a sin with eternal consequences.” He told them this because they were saying, “He’s possessed by an evil spirit.””
‭‭Mark‬ ‭3:28-30‬

But this was not the only time Jesus refers to blasphemy of the Holy Spirit.

““I tell you the truth, everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, the Son of Man will also acknowledge in the presence of God’s angels. But anyone who denies me here on earth will be denied before God’s angels. Anyone who speaks against the Son of Man can be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭12:8-10‬

According to Luke the Pharisees were blaspheming against the Holy Spirit because they didn’t acknowledge Jesus.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I said this:
" And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed."

And the non-responsive reply to what I said:

Thanks for ignoring the verses I posted. Why would anyone think the verses you've shared somehow remove the clear meaning of the verses I shared?

Anyhoo, this response did not unpack anything I posted.

If anything I posted is unbiblical, it should be easy to unpack.

If Heb 6:4-6 is about losing salvation, then the passage says it is IMPOSSIBLE to renew them to repentance. What else can that mean but not able to be saved again?

It could mean that it would be impossible for someone to teach them anything else that would bring them back to repentance since they were already enlightened and shared in the Holy Spirit.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I said this:
" And I've done that. With John 5:24 and 6:47 to show from Scripture that WHEN a person believes, they POSSESS eternal life, by the phrases "whoever believes...HAS" and "the one believing HAS".

Then from John 10:28a I showed CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ, who said, "I give them eternal life". From the previous 2 verses, the "them" refers to whoever believes and the one believing. Obviously.

The EFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security, by the phrase "and they shall never perish".

The "they" refers back to the "them" in the first phrase.

Therefore, at the very MOMENT one places their faith/trust in Jesus Christ for salvation, they POSSESS eternal life. And the result is very obvious; they shall never perish.

If you or anyone else can unpack these points, please proceed."

And the non-responsive reply to what I said:

Thanks for ignoring the verses I posted. Why would anyone think the verses you've shared somehow remove the clear meaning of the verses I shared?

Anyhoo, this response did not unpack anything I posted.

If anything I posted is unbiblical, it should be easy to unpack.

But John 5:24 doesn’t only say those who believe it says those who listen and believe.

““I tell you the truth, those who listen to my message and believe in God who sent me have eternal life. They will never be condemned for their sins, but they have already passed from death into life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬