What in the world are you talking about, my poor brother?
I clearly explained who all the "they", "them", "our", "you", "your" and "we" are.
READ it again.
31Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on Him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; 32And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 33They [the Jews which believed on Him] answered Him , We be Abraham's seed, and were never in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free?
Beginning in V 31, we see Jesus begin a dialogue with the Jews
which believed on Him. Where do you see this changing?
You missed the previous verse. v.30 - Even as he spoke, many believed in him.
John was speaking truth here. There were many in that crowd who believed in Him.
So v.31 is STILL about the "many who believed in Him".
v.32 is a statement TO the "many who believed in Him". Not to "the Jews" or "the Pharisees". All of which were NOT believing in Him.
No where in the remainder of this passage do we find Jesus changing His audience.
Here's what you're missing. When Jesus spoke of the truth in v.32, it was the "they" who responded, even though He wasn't speaking to "them". His statements were to the "many who believed in Him".
iow, the unbelieving Jews interrupted in v.33. They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
Yet, He wasn't addressing the unbelieving Jews. Just keep reading. At v.45, Jesus plainly tells the unbelievers that they don't believe, and why they don't.
No where do we find the idea that those were different Jews who decided to stone Him.
Those who don't want to see it just won't. And I cannot help them.
What is clear is that in the whole crowd who were listening to Jesus, there were "many" who DID believe in Him. John SAID so and recorded it.
But it seems you'd rather argue that John and Jesus weren't on the same page here, and that John mis-spoke or some nonsense like that.
You came up with some outlandish exegesis that even an atheist would reject on the basis of pure absurdity since it is completely illogical.
My exegesis is EXACTLY what was written.
So, it DOES seem that your argument is that John and Jesus weren't in agreement about the "many" who believed. John said they DID, but your view is the whole crowd DIDN'T believe.
You count how many times certain words occurred to make your point legitimate? Huh???
Do you believe in context, or are you satisfied to just make up a bunch of stuff?
So, because the words, "they, them, you, we, our, etc" occurred many times, somehow your interpretation is correct?
So, is this an argument that all those words refer to different groups within the whole group? Then why all the difficulty with my exegesis about a group of Jews who DID believe in Him within the larger crowd of unbelieving Jews?
You're not being consistent, that's for sure.
Somehow Jesus is not talking to those Jews which believed on Him?
Uh, no. He WAS talking to believing Jews in v.32.
Here's v.31-32 together, for context;
31
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, “If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples.
32
Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Couldn't be any more clear. v.31 tells us who Jesus was speaking to; believers.
And in v.32, the "then you" also refers to those Jews who had believed.
And somehow He began talking to different Jews, which didn't believe on Him?
Sure. In v.33, the "they" basically showed their ignorance by what they said:
v.33 -
They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”
This is the reason I counted all the related words. The "they" at the beginning of v.33 refers to the SAME people as all the other words I counted.
Even though that transition is no where to be found in the text.
I never mentioned any "transition". But v.33 was said by unbelieving Jews, not the believing Jews of v.30-32.
People want eternal security to be a true doctrine, which was never believed by Christians since the beginning of the Church until Martin Luther in the 1500s, so that they do not live a true life of faith and repentance.
Jesus taught eternal security clearly. After teaching that whoever believes (Jn 5:24) or "the one who believes" (Jn 6:47) HAS (possesses) eternal life, He then taught in Jn 10:28a that He is the CAUSE of possessing eternal life by the words "I give them eternal life" and the EFFECT of possessing eternal life by the words "and they shall never perish".
So, what part of "never perish" don't you understand or like?
They want to be once saved, always saved so that they can continue embracing their sinful habits without consequence.
This is a fallacious myth. The Bible is full of consequences for disobedience and unfaithfulness. Just not anything about losing salvation/eternal life.
Heb 12:11 speaks of God's painful discipline. Do you believe that God is able to administer discipline that is painful or not?
If so, you should repent of your comment about OSAS being about sinning without consequence.
They want to ignore all of the scriptures that completely refute their demonic delusions so that they don't have to get on their knees before God and weep for their sins, asking for forgiveness and grace to become more sanctified and to increase in love for God.
Jesus wasn't demon possessed when He taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish. What a horrible viewpoint of the Savior!!
You believe that somehow God's salvation works differently in the OT compared to the NT. No, God didn't change.
Nor do I think He changed. What did Paul use to evangelize the known world of the time? The Scriptures, which included ONLY the OT.
Consider all these verses:
Moses and the Prophets regarding salvation through faith in Christ
Luke 24:27, 44 -
27 And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.
44 He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.”
Luke 16:29,30,31 -
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “ ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ ”
John 1:45 - Philip found Nathanael and told him, “We have found the one Moses wrote about in the Law, and about whom the prophets also wrote—Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph.”
John 5 -
39 You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me,
40 yet you refuse to come to me to have life.
45 “But do not think I will accuse you before the Father. Your accuser is Moses, on whom your hopes are set.
46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.
47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”
John 6:45 - It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 12:34 - The crowd spoke up, “We have heard from the Law that the Messiah will remain forever, so how can you say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this ‘Son of Man’?”
John 20:9- (They still did not understand from Scripture that Jesus had to rise from the dead.)
Acts 3:22,23,24 -
22 For Moses said, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own people; you must listen to everything he tells you.
23 Anyone who does not listen to him will be completely cut off from their people.’
24 “Indeed, beginning with Samuel, all the prophets who have spoken have foretold these days.
Acts 9:22 - Yet Saul grew more and more powerful and baffled the Jews living in Damascus by proving that Jesus is the Messiah. [obviously from the OT]
Acts 10:43 - All the prophets testify about him that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name.”
Acts 13:27, 29 - 27 -The people of Jerusalem and their rulers did not recognize Jesus, yet in condemning him they fulfilled the words of the prophets that are read every Sabbath. 29 - When they had carried out all that was written about him, they took him down from the cross and laid him in a tomb.
Acts 13:39 - Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.
Acts 15:5,10 -
5 Then some of the believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees stood up and said, “The Gentiles must be circumcised and required to keep the law of Moses.”
10 Now then, why do you try to test God by putting on the necks of Gentiles a yoke that neither we nor our ancestors have been able to bear? [this shows that the Law of Moses didn’t save]
Acts 17:2,3,11 -
2 As was his custom, Paul went into the synagogue, and on three Sabbath days he reasoned with them from the Scriptures,
3 explaining and proving that the Messiah had to suffer and rise from the dead. “This Jesus I am proclaiming to you is the Messiah,” he said.
11 Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
Acts 18:28 - For he vigorously refuted his Jewish opponents in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Messiah.
Acts 24:14,24 -
14 However, I admit that I worship the God of our ancestors as a follower of the Way, which they call a sect. I believe everything that is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets,
24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus.
Acts 26:6,7,22,23 -
6 And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our ancestors that I am on trial today.
7 This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. King Agrippa, it is because of this hope that these Jews are accusing me.
22 But God has helped me to this very day; so I stand here and testify to small and great alike. I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen—
23 that the Messiah would suffer and, as the first to rise from the dead, would bring the message of light to his own people and to the Gentiles.”
Acts 28:23 - They arranged to meet Paul on a certain day, and came in even larger numbers to the place where he was staying. He witnessed to them from morning till evening, explaining about the kingdom of God, and from the Law of Moses and from the Prophets he tried to persuade them about Jesus.
Rom 1:2 - the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures
Rom 3:20-22 -
20 Therefore, no one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin.
21 But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
Rom 3:27,28
27 Where, then, is boasting? It is excluded. Because of what law? The law that requires works? No, because of the law that requires faith.
28 For we maintain that a person is justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
All these verses show that salvation in the OT was the SAME as in the NT.
The means by which He saved people never changed. It was always through faith in Christ that the Saints were saved. But read the Psalms, O Theologian Friend, tell me how you could conclude that he believed in assurance of salvation even though He was saved by Christ and prophesied about Him?
Where do any of the Psalms teach loss of salvation? Please back up your claims with actual Scripture.
Therefore, "You greatly err"
Not me. That's on you.