SALVATION offered by Jesus: COMPLETED and IRREVOCABLE

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ToBeLoved

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All one can do is speculate. Jesus never said who the other sheep were. However, that doesn't affect what I said because the words of Jesus that FreeGrace 2 is quoting were to Israel. How Gentiles enter into the equation is spelled out by Paul, but that came after Jesus words to the Israelites. My point is simply to show the context in which the passage was spoken. If one is going to apply the passage beyond what the context shows then they have to show how it applies beyond that context. FreeGrace2 hasn't done nor attempted that.
Ok. Well you tell me who is the other sheep pen?

Because a sheep is a follower of Christ.

So you just tell me who the second one is.
 
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Butch5

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Ok. Well you tell me who is the other sheep pen?

Because a sheep is a follower of Christ.

So you just tell me who the second one is.

We're not told. It could be the Gentiles, but we're simply not told. We can infer that it's the Gentiles, but that would be an inference. But since we're not told we can't say for certain that it is the Gentiles.
 
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ToBeLoved

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We're not told. It could be the Gentiles, but we're simply not told. We can infer that it's the Gentiles, but that would be an inference. But since we're not told we can't say for certain that it is the Gentiles.
That makes no sense.

To Israel, there is the Jew and all the rest are Gentiles.

There is no other group.

I do not understand your logic.

Do you not understand the basic logic coming from Israel being the chosen people and all others are ‘Gentiles’ or NOT Jews.

Maybe you don’t understand basic Bible and words used and how they are used.

So again. If Jews are one sheep pen, who is the other sheep pen?
 
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FreeGrace2

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Also, you've claimed that when one believes they possess eternal life.
No, I was quoting the very words of Jesus Christ. He claimed it. John 5:24 and 6:47.

However, we can easily see that that is not the case.
This statement is a clear repudiation of the very words of the Lord Jesus.

Christians die. By definition eternal life means one doesn't die.
Is this serious? Are you not aware of the FACT that humans die physically, but their souls live on for eternity. Those who possess eternal life live with God, and those who don't possess eternal life will exist in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15.

Your profile indicates that you're a Christian, but it seems you're rather unfamiliar with what Christians believe.

Thus one does not possess eternal life.
There is no connection between physical and eternal life. Apples and oranges.

The answer is in the other passage you quoted by Paul, Ephesians 1:14. Notice when they believe they received the down payment on their inheritance. They didn't receive the inheritance, but only received a down payment. The reason is because eternal life is given at the resurrection. Believers, when resurrected, will die no more.
Which is ETERNAL life.

Regarding you use of the word guarantee. The word that is translated guarantee in some translations means a down payment. It doesn't mean that something is certain to happen.
Please re-read the verse. The guarantee isn't the down payment. The sealing with the Spirit is the down payment, or deposit.

It is the deposit that GUARANTEES "our inheritance". That's what's guaranteed.
 
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FreeGrace2

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Firstly, Jesus didn't say who those other sheep were. However, it doesn't matter because He said He had only come to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
This premise is seriously flawed. By that illogical reasoning (unreasonable), everything Jesus said would only apply to Israel. Yet, Jesus is the Savior of the world, not just Israel. John 4:42.

That statement right there limits the passage to Israel and as such your exegesis of the passage is void.
Nonsense,

It's not about what you claim because Jesus said He had only come to the lost sheep of Israel. It's all about context.
Which it seems you have no clue.

That's why I said in the other post, the OSAS side has no argument only passages out of context.
Your claims are preposterous. No serious Christian or student of the Word could ever accept them.

Here you've posted several posts saying all kinds of stuff. But it's all out of context. The passage was in reference to Israel.
All of the "all kinds of STUFF" have come from your posts.

And you've still failed to exegete John 10:28a. But I understand why.
 
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FreeGrace2

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All one can do is speculate.
Wow. Now, that's a novel way to figure out Scripture. And a failed plan.

The Word of God wasn't given to man for man to have to speculate as to what God wants us to know. How silly.

So, why did Paul write this? 2 Cor 1:13 - For we do not write you anything you cannot read or understand...

Jesus never said who the other sheep were.
Not relevant. It's easy to understand who He was speaking about.

However, that doesn't affect what I said because the words of Jesus that FreeGrace 2 is quoting were to Israel.
As the Savior of the World (Jn 4:42) your claim is simply preposterous. His words are for the whole world.

How Gentiles enter into the equation is spelled out by Paul, but that came after Jesus words to the Israelites. My point is simply to show the context in which the passage was spoken. If one is going to apply the passage beyond what the context shows then they have to show how it applies beyond that context. FreeGrace2 hasn't done nor attempted that.
Ha. What hasn't been done is any attempt at executing John 10:28a by you.

The ONLY WAY to refute my view is to provide an exegesis that refutes mine.

But I understand why that hasn't been done.

What I've shown and clearly, is that there is a very clear CAUSE and EFFECT in that verse.

The issue is possession of eternal life.

The CAUSE of possessing eternal life is Jesus Christ Himself. He SAYS SO. "I give them eternal life".

The EFFECT of possessing eternal life is eternal security. He SAYS SO. "and they shall never perish."

In order to refute my view, one must show there is NO cause and effect in that verse in relation to possession of eternal life.

And must also show that possession of eternal life doesn't occur when one believes. But to do that, one must also reject what Jesus SAID in John 5:24 and 6:47.
 
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FreeGrace2

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We're not told. It could be the Gentiles, but we're simply not told. We can infer that it's the Gentiles, but that would be an inference. But since we're not told we can't say for certain that it is the Gentiles.
So, who else could it be? There are no other choices.
 
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Ron Gurley

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God does not have a Body / Soul. Man does. The relationship can ONLY be SPIRITUAL. God creates Man in His SPIRITUAL image and likeness. God's SPIRIT calls/draws Man's SPIRIT to SPIRITUALLY accept or reject Him. God changes Man's SPIRIT...born again from above....salvation. Then God the Holy SPIRIT indwells Man and comforts / guides him unto SPIRITUAL "good works"...sanctification.

All the SPIRITS are immortal and will be JUDGED. Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION in Christ is NOT JUDGED...only their "works"...in or out of the will of God...rewards or loss. Unbeliever's SPIRITUAL POSITIONs out of Christ are JUDGED...AND...their unforgiven sins!

No SPIRIT nor SPIRIT BEING is "destroyed"...annhilated... removed from eternal existence.

BUT...Body / Soul combos ARE mortal and into "death"...beyond which believers have "eternal SPIRITUAL life" in the presence of God. Unbelievers have eternal SPIRITUAL separation from God.

Eternal SPIRITUAL Life

John 17 (NASB...JESUS: The High Priestly Prayer...BELIEF in the TRI-UNE God ONLY!
1 Jesus spoke these things; and lifting up His eyes to heaven, He said,
“Father, the hour has come;
glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2
even as You (Father) gave Him (Jesus) authority over all flesh, that to all (believers) whom You (Father) have given Him (Jesus),
He (Jesus) MAY GIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
3 This IS ETERNAL LIFE that they may KNOW (believe in) You, the only true God, and (believe in) Jesus (the) Christ whom You (Father) have sent.
20 “I do (Jesus) not ask on behalf of these (disciples present) alone, but for those also who BELIEVE in Me through their word (teaching gospel);
21 that they may all be one;
even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You,
that they also may be in Us,
so that the world may BELIEVE that You sent Me.

1 John 5 (NASB)...John: This Is Written That You May Know that Jesus is ETERNAL LIFE
20 And we know that the Son of God has come,
and has given us understanding so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true,
in His Son Jesus (the) Christ.
This is the TRUE GOD and ETERNAL LIFE.

2 Timothy 3 (NASB)...salvation though FAITH
15 and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings (Scriptures) which are able to give you the wisdom that leads to SALVATION THROUGH FAITH which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is inspired (BREATH UPON) by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
17 so that the man of God (BELIEVER) may be adequate, equipped for every good work.

The believer should KNOW that he is spritually and eternally secure because of Jesus the Christ's promises and explanation of "ETERNAL LIFE" of Man's spirit.

JESUS the God-Man's "WORDS" on : "ETERNAL LIFE"

John 3:13-18 (NASB)...the ONLY requirement for salvation from "eternal death": spirit-led BELIEF / FAITH...SEE ALSO: Ephesians 2
13 No one has ascended into heaven,
but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. (Divine Messiah)
14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,
even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; (substitutional sacrifice on the Cross)
15 so that whoever BELIEVES WILL in Him have "eternal (spiritual) life".
16 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, (TRUE new MAN)
that whoever BELIEVES in Him shall not perish, but have "eternal (spiritual) life".(NOW!)
17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be SAVED THROUGH Him. ((NOW!)
18 He who BELIEVES in Him is not judged;
he who does not believe has been judged already,
because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

John 5:24
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me,
HAS "eternal (spiritual) life", and does not come into judgment, but HAS PASSED out of death into life.

John 4:14 ...WATER = belief in Jesus as Messiah...Samaritan woman at the well
but whoever drinks of the water that I WILL give him shall never thirst; but the water that I WILL give him
WILL become in him a well of water springing up to "eternal (spiritual) life".”

John 6:47,54, 35-36, 40...The Last Supper metaphor ...Truly, truly, I say to you, he who BELIEVES HAS "eternal life"....
He who eats My flesh (bread) and drinks My blood (wine) has "eternal life",
and I will raise him up on the last day.
35 Jesus said to them,
“I am the bread of life;
he who COMES to Me WILL not hunger,
and he who BELIEVES in Me WILL never thirst.
36 But I said to you that you have SEEN Me, and yet do not BELIEVE.
40 For this is the will of My Father,
that everyone who beholds the Son and BELIEVES in Him WILL have "eternal (spiritual)life",
and I Myself will raise him up "on the last day".”

John 10:28 ...and I GIVE "eternal (spiritual) life" to them (sheep=believers),
and they will never perish (BE SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED); and no one WILL snatch them out of My hand.
 
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Butch5

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That makes no sense.

To Israel, there is the Jew and all the rest are Gentiles.

There is no other group.

I do not understand your logic.

Do you not understand the basic logic coming from Israel being the chosen people and all others are ‘Gentiles’ or NOT Jews.

Maybe you don’t understand basic Bible and words used and how they are used.

So again. If Jews are one sheep pen, who is the other sheep pen?

It makes perfect sense. If we're not told something the best we can do is speculate. Jesus could have been talking about other Jews. Since you brought up logic let me ask you a question. Jesus said He had other sheep. You say these sheep are the Gentiles. How did Jesus have other sheep that were Gentiles when the Gospel had not yet gone to the Gentiles?
 
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ToBeLoved

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It makes perfect sense. If we're not told something the best we can do is speculate. Jesus could have been talking about other Jews. Since you brought up logic let me ask you a question. Jesus said He had other sheep. You say these sheep are the Gentiles. How did Jesus have other sheep that were Gentiles when the Gospel had not yet gone to the Gentiles?
:scratch:

Because Jesus is the High Priest of the New Covenant. Jesus, as the ressurected Son, went on.

Jesus talked of His Kingdom quite a bit. He did not limit His teachings to only His physical life, otherwise how would you explain Him saying that the cup at the Last Supper is His blood or the bread is His body?

If you do not want to evaluate scripture in it's entirety and ALL of Jesus words, then maybe you shouldn't be telling us what Jesus meant.

Jesus said to His disciples, "I will go to the Father and send a Comforter to you".

Jesus was not as short sighted as you seem to think
 
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Butch5

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No, I was quoting the very words of Jesus Christ. He claimed it. John 5:24 and 6:47.

You did claim it.


This statement is a clear repudiation of the very words of the Lord Jesus.

Actually, it's a repudiation of your understanding of Jesus' words

Is this serious? Are you not aware of the FACT that humans die physically, but their souls live on for eternity. Those who possess eternal life live with God, and those who don't possess eternal life will exist in the lake of fire. Rev 20:15.

Yes I'm serious. No souls don't live on for eternity. Paul said the Father alone has immortality. Humans die physically because they are physical beings.

Your profile indicates that you're a Christian, but it seems you're rather unfamiliar with what Christians believe.
I'm not unfamiliar with what Christians believe. It's just that much of what they believe is not Biblical. That can be seen from your statement above..


There is no connection between physical and eternal life. Apples and oranges.[/quote[

Like I said, much of what they believe is not Biblical. Physical life is all people have. Eternal life is a physical life that's why one doesn't get it til the resurrection


Which is ETERNAL life.

No, the inheritance is not eternal life. It's the promises made to Abraham.


Please re-read the verse. The guarantee isn't the down payment. The sealing with the Spirit is the down payment, or deposit.

And the word guarantee isn't in it.

It is the deposit that GUARANTEES "our inheritance". That's what's guaranteed.

Again, the word guarantee isn't in the passage.
 
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Butch5

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This premise is seriously flawed. By that illogical reasoning (unreasonable), everything Jesus said would only apply to Israel. Yet, Jesus is the Savior of the world, not just Israel. John 4:42.

The premise isn't flawed, your reasoning is. His words were to Israel that's the context of what He said. If you want to apply them beyond that you need to show how.


Nonsense,


Which it seems you have no clue.


Your claims are preposterous. No serious Christian or student of the Word could ever accept them.


All of the "all kinds of STUFF" have come from your posts.

And you've still failed to exegete John 10:28a. But I understand why.

The rest of your replies above are just opinions.

Pick one topic and let's deal with it. I'm not going to have 50 different posts going at once. It's too difficult to keep track.
 
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Butch5

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:scratch:

Because Jesus is the High Priest of the New Covenant. Jesus, as the ressurected Son, went on.

Jesus talked of His Kingdom quite a bit. He did not limit His teachings to only His physical life, otherwise how would you explain Him saying that the cup at the Last Supper is His blood or the bread is His body?
It was a metaphor. I'm not sure what you mean about, "His physical life".

If you do not want to evaluate scripture in it's entirety and ALL of Jesus words, then maybe you shouldn't be telling us what Jesus meant.

Jesus said to His disciples, "I will go to the Father and send a Comforter to you".

Jesus was not as short sighted as you seem to think

I'm sorry but I don't see how any of this answers the question. How could the other sheep be the Gentiles when the gospel had not yet gone to the gentiles.
 
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FreeGrace2

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I said:
"No, I was quoting the very words of Jesus Christ. He claimed it. John 5:24 and 6:47."
You did claim it.
Are you claiming that Jesus never claimed it?

Yes I'm serious. No souls don't live on for eternity. Paul said the Father alone has immortality. Humans die physically because they are physical beings.
Dying physically says nothing about the soul. Sounds like your view is one of annihilation, whereby the soul is destroyed and doesn't exist.

Which cannot be found in the Bible.

I'm not unfamiliar with what Christians believe. It's just that much of what they believe is not Biblical. That can be seen from your statement above..
Right. I've pointed out what isn't orthodox Christianity from your own posts.
 
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FreeGrace2

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The premise isn't flawed, your reasoning is. His words were to Israel that's the context of what He said.
Talk about flawed reasoning!! If John 10:28 only refers to Israel, then only Israel is guaranteed eternal security. And only Israel receives the free gift of eternal life.

Pick one topic and let's deal with it. I'm not going to have 50 different posts going at once. It's too difficult to keep track.
It was you who responded to my post about eternal security. That's the topic I'm speaking about. And I exegeted John 10:28a to show the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which directly speaks of eternal security.
 
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Ron Gurley

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God is not an Indian-Giver. His spiritual gifts and works are irreversible.
He keeps His promises.

Psalm 77:8
Has His lovingkindness ceased forever? Has His promise come to an end forever?

Matthew 28:20
.... and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”(of Grace/"CHURCH")
 
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FreeGrace2

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God is not an Indian-Giver. His spiritual gifts and works are irreversible.
He keeps His promises.

Psalm 77:8
Has His lovingkindness ceased forever? Has His promise come to an end forever?

Matthew 28:20
.... and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.”(of Grace/"CHURCH")
Correct!

Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.
 
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Butch5

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I said:
"No, I was quoting the very words of Jesus Christ. He claimed it. John 5:24 and 6:47."

Are you claiming that Jesus never claimed it?

As I said, it's your understanding of what He said that is in question.


Dying physically says nothing about the soul. Sounds like your view is one of annihilation, whereby the soul is destroyed and doesn't exist.

Which cannot be found in the Bible.

On the contrary, it's all over Scripture. What can't be found in Scripture is this teaching that man is a spirit that lives on after death.

Dying physically is the only death there is. It's the only one in Scripture.


Right. I've pointed out what isn't orthodox Christianity from your own posts.

Orthodox just means what's generally accepted, it doesn't mean it's correct. The doctrine of Purgatory was orthodox for quite some time. As I said, much of what Christians believe isn't correct. That can be seen by comparing it to the Bible and to what was first believed among Christians.
 
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FreeGrace2

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As I said, it's your understanding of what He said that is in question.
There is no question that John 10:28a is a statement of CAUSE and EFFECT.

When Jesus said: "I give them eternal life", He was stating the CAUSE of possessing eternal life. He is the One who gives eternal life.

Then, He follows that statement with this: "and they shall never perish".

This is a clear statement of EFFECT of possessing eternal life.

Now, since your claim is that my understanding of what Jesus said is "in question", please address these CAUSE and EFFECT statements that I've pointed out, and show how neither are statements of either CAUSE of possession of eternal life, nor EFFECT of possession of eternal life.

I'll not comment on anything else in your post until this is resolved.
 
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Butch5

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Talk about flawed reasoning!! If John 10:28 only refers to Israel, then only Israel is guaranteed eternal security. And only Israel receives the free gift of eternal life.

You've proven again that your reasoning is flawed. Paul explains how eternal life goes to the Gentile. However, that doesn't affect what Jesus said to Israel. How much clearer can He be?

But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. (Matt. 15:24 KJV)

I mean it's pretty clear. Do you you believe this? He was sent to Israel. You see God actually had a plan. If you understand that plan then you'll understand how salvation for the Gentiles works. However, to take a passage, that was spoken to Israel, completely out of context and randomly apply it to Gentiles and make claims that the passage doesn't is eisegesis.


It was you who responded to my post about eternal security. That's the topic I'm speaking about. And I exegeted John 10:28a to show the CAUSE and EFFECT of possessing eternal life, which directly speaks of eternal security.

I responded to someone else's post. It was you who challenged what I said to someone else. Having said tha,t I did address your op. I showed that it is out context and improperly exegeted. You took a passage that was spoke about Israel and applied it universally to all believers, that's out of context.
 
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