Debate-For MJ's Only 'To Keep the Passover you must be circumcised'

[Lulav]

Much has been written on this and I won't quote from every source.

Some believe that gentiles were allowed to keep the feast, just that they weren't allowed to eat of the sacrifice. They were allowed the cups of wine, the matzoh, bitter herbs etc, just not the lamb.

There is also a general agreement that the point is moot since there is no temple today so all believers can keep the feast.

But the instructions G-d gave say only the circumcised can partake.


PLEASE NOTE: This thread is in the Messianic Judaism forum and also is for MJ's only to debate. All posts disregarding this or Off TOPIC will be deleted.

Lets look at the Torah instructions

Deut 16
1 Observe the month of Abib, and keep the passover unto the L-RD thy God: for in the month of Abib the L-RD thy God brought thee forth out of Egypt by night.
2 Thou shalt therefore sacrifice the passover unto the L-RD thy God, of the flock and the herd, in the place which the L-RD shall choose to place his name there.
3 Thou shalt eat no leavened bread with it; seven days shalt thou eat unleavened bread therewith, even the bread of affliction; for thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt in haste: that thou mayest remember the day when thou camest forth out of the land of Egypt all the days of thy life.
4 And there shall be no leavened bread seen with thee in all thy coast seven days; neither shall there any thing of the flesh, which thou sacrificedst the first day at even, remain all night until the morning.
5 Thou mayest not sacrifice the passover within any of thy gates, which the L-RD thy God giveth thee:
6 But at the place which the L-RD thy God shall choose to place his name in, there thou shalt sacrifice the passover at even, at the going down of the sun, at the season that thou camest forth out of Egypt.
7 And thou shalt roast and eat it in the place which the L-RD thy God shall choose: and thou shalt turn in the morning, and go unto thy tents.
8 Six days thou shalt eat unleavened bread: and on the seventh day shall be a solemn assembly to the L-RD thy God: thou shalt do no work therein.

from EXODUS 12

43 And the L-RD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.


John 1 shows us the True Passover Lamb

28 All this happened at Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing.
29 The next day John saw Yeshua coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

Now let's look at what Yeshua said in John 6:

31 'Our fathers did eat manna in the desert; as it is written, He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'
32 Then Yeshua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
33 For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world.
34 Then said they unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread.
35 And Yeshua said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst........

47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53 Then Yeshua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.
54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55 For my flesh is meat (food) indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.
57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

From 1 Peter

…18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life you inherited from your forefathers,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.
20 He was known before the foundation of the world, but was revealed in the last times for your sake.…

In Revelation we read of Yeshua being referred to many times as the Lamb.

"because the Lamb in the middle of the throne will shepherd them and lead them to
springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes."

Then the angel said to me, "Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the
wedding supper of the Lamb!" And he added, "These are the true words of God."

'It was flowing from the throne of God and the lamb.' ...

'The salvation is to Him who is
sitting upon the throne -- to our God, and to the Lamb!'

'I did not see a temple in the city, because the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are
its temple. ...'

'and sang the song of God's servant Moses and of the Lamb: "Great and
marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true ...'​

This lamb was prophesied back in Genesis 22

... Abraham answered, "God will provide a lamb for the burnt offering,
Son." The two of them went on together. ...

So from the testimony of these verses we must conclude the following things:

1. That Yeshua is the Passover Lamb
2. Yeshua is the bread from heaven
3. Yeshua is the true unblemished sacrifice

Now add to that........

Luke 18 For I tell you that I will not drink of the fruit of the vine from now on until the kingdom of God comes.”
19 And He took the bread (matzah), gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

Mark 26 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body.


Now we can see that Yeshua has stated that he is the bread that came down from heaven, he is also called the Lamb of G-d, the Passover lamb.

From this I see that the lamb and the matzoh of the Seder are one and the same.

We don't sacrifice the lamb for Passover today because there is no temple, but also because we believe in the true Passover lamb, Yeshua.

When we remember and keep the Passover we see the Matzoh as the bread from heaven, the body of Yeshua, the unblemished lamb. If we participate in this and the ordinances for keeping the Passover say that one must be circumcised why is that not held to?

What do you think circumcision has to do with eating of the Passover lamb or in this case the Matzah at the Seder meal?

 

[Heber Book List]

Just a thought - Deuteronomy 10:16. Deuteronomy 30:6, Jeremiah 4:4, Acts 2:37, Romans 2:25-29

The Tanach concept is used by Paul in Romans. However, for the purposes of the debate, the quotes from Torah will carry most weight, I think.

It raises the question - when is circumcision (either way round), counted as circumcision by G_d? I don't think that Passover should be marked by other than Jews / believers. IOW unbelievers should not be invited to take part.

 

[Lulav]

I am speaking of a physical circumcision, not spiritual.

We can't mix them both.

The Lamb was flesh, both the animal and Yeshua.
The Bread, the unleavened bread was also physical.

I'd like to concentrate on the physical aspect for this discussion.

 

[Heber Book List]

I am speaking of a physical circumcision, not spiritual.

We can't mix them both.

The Lamb was flesh, both the animal and Yeshua.
The Bread, the unleavened bread was also physical.

I'd like to concentrate on the physical aspect for this discussion.

OK. You pointed to the spiritual with the John 6 & the Lukan quote re Yeshua's body (unless you were addressing Catholics).

 

[CherubRam]

The Covenant of Circumcision has been revoked and replaced with the New Covenant. That is why Paul and the disciples did not require that the new converts be circumcised. Those disciples who were circumcised kept the festivals until the temple was destroyed. There was about a 40 year transition period between covenants.

 

[CherubRam]

Just a reminder, there is covenant circumcision and non-covenant circumcision.

Here is a good question: Do's God accept covenant circumcision after revoking that covenant, and since the New Covenant has been introduced?

 

[Lulav]

OK. You pointed to the spiritual with the John 6 & the Lukan quote re Yeshua's body (unless you were addressing Catholics).

Right. I wasn't going that far but 'what if' not every day or three times a day on any day or night but for only a certain period of 84 hours it had certain 'influence' on the body?

 

[Lulav]

The Covenant of Circumcision has been revoked and replaced with the New Covenant. That is why Paul and the disciples did not require that the new converts be circumcised. Those disciples who were circumcised kept the festivals until the temple was destroyed. There was about a 40 year transition period between covenants.

The New Covenant has nothing to do with Circumcision or this thread. We are talking about the connection between partaking of the Passover and being circumcised.

Just a reminder, there is covenant circumcision and non-covenant circumcision.

Here is a good question: Do's God accept covenant circumcision after revoking that covenant, and since the New Covenant has been introduced?

Well aware, we are speaking of circumcision as explained in Torah and in connection to Passover, please don't derail this thread.

If you want to question if G-d revoked his covenant then please do it in another thread. Thank You.

 

[Lulav]

Recap so we can get back on track. Off Topic Posts have been removed and given their own thread to discuss other things. Please only reply in connection of only if you are circumcised can you keep the Passover

But the instructions G-d gave say only the circumcised can partake.
And the L-RD said unto Moses and Aaron,
This is the ordinance of the passover:
There shall no stranger eat thereof: But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

So to get back on track, this is what we have.

• 29 The next day John saw Yeshua coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
• Then Yeshua said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven.
• Yeshua said unto them, I am the bread of life:
• you were redeemed with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or spot.
• And He took the bread (matzah), gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is My body, given for you; do this in remembrance of Me.”

The Lamb or kid represented the Savior to come. There were restrictions on it, unblemished, certain age, roasted, etc.

Come The Passover Yeshua told his disciples that he was that unleavened bread, the bread that came down from heaven.

The wine from the cup of redemption represented the blood he shed for the price of our sins.

Do this, the 'This' was the Seder, no longer in remembrance of only how G-d brought them out of slavery but what it really represented all along, the promised Messiah, the Lamb that G-d would provide spoken by Abraham.

So then today, believers who participate in a Seder, there shouldn't be a lamb shank on the plate for the true Lamb was slain, the true Sacrifice was made and the matzoh represents HIM.

The Lamb back then was to be eaten with the unleavened bread.

I am proposing that today (since the resurrection) the Seder should contain the Matzah and wine but no lamb shank as the Matzah is Yeshua and if you are to partake of that matzah, then you should be also circumcised. I don't see where this regulation was dismissed.

There is the whole afikomen symbolism that represents this.

So the main question of this thread is what is the connection between circumcision and partaking of the lamb?

 

[Heber Book List]

Initially every male in Abraham's camp was to be circumcised - whether slave or free, whether a foreigner living in his camp, or not. It was a means of showing who was in this new 'family of G_d'.

However, things get a bit muddled: the rubric set out by G_d excludes women, partly for anatomical reasons, and yet today, one has to be born of an uncircumcised person, to prove one's Jewishness, and women, being uncircumcised, are permitted to be at the Passover meal - or are they in all branches of Judaism?

So where does that leave us if nearly half the people at the Passover meal are uncircumcised, anyway, but could eat of the lamb? In reality, this thread applies only to men at the Passover meal - in which case what is the difference (excluding issues of anatomy) between an uncircumcised woman, believer or not, who can sit at Passover and eat of the Lamb, because there is no Covenant for them, or against them, and an uncircumcised man who is a believer who may not?

 

[AbbaLove]

So then today, believers who participate in a Seder, there shouldn't be a lamb shank on the plate for the true Lamb was slain, the true Sacrifice was made and the matzoh represents HIM.

AGREE!

I am proposing that today (since the resurrection) the Seder should contain the Matzah and wine but no lamb shank as the Matzah is Yeshua and if you are to partake of that matzah, *then you should be also circumcised. I don't see where this regulation was dismissed.

Try convincing FFOZ and other Torah Observant Messianic Judaism congregations not to open their Passover Seder Service to the public. That's why i posted *Sar Shalom's requirements because they may side with you (only Torah Observant circumcised males partake).

So the main question of this thread is *what is the connection between circumcision and partaking of the lamb?

​

A little confusion here. Some may not realize you are referring to the *allegory (partaking of the lamb). As you rightly suggest it is a NO-NO today to include a lamb shank on a Messianic Seder plate. You give the impression that only circumcised males should partake of a Pesach Seder meal.

 

[Open Heart]

Since there is no sacrifice to be eaten, I see no problem with it.

 

[visionary]

Since there is no sacrifice to be eaten, I see no problem with it.

There is meat at the seder, the sacrifice was not under supervision, nor is it considered a sacrifice even though the animal was killed for its flesh.

 

[visionary]

The reason behind the circumcision instruction would be interesting. Since God instructed Israel to be teachers of His Torah, what is so special about the seder, that the symbol of the covenant between Abraham and God be included in this feast. Why the delineation between the circumcised and the non-circumcised? Is it the faith in God and the promised covenant with Abraham and his descendants of blood or is it about the promise by faith, aka heart circumcision, spoken of here in the feast?

There are many activities that Jews do because of the instructions they receive, that are physical activities which have spiritual value. Yeshua opened up the eyes to see the spiritual value, which in this instance Paul, inspired, stated was the heart and the circumcised life in Him. A Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. If so, was Abraham circumcised in the heart first, before the outward show by action? I believe these questions must be answered first before today's seder can properly handled.

 

[Open Heart]

There is meat at the seder, the sacrifice was not under supervision, nor is it considered a sacrifice even though the animal was killed for its flesh.

You are right. The meat I eat at my seder meal is not a sacrifice. Thus I said I have no problem with Gentile's coming to my seder meal.

 

[Lulav]

It would be helpful for this debate if Lulav could clarify whether this Pesach/Passover Seder discussion-debate is more about the males that have an active role in the actual Passover Seder Service or both the male helpers and the male attendees … Thanks

Has nothing to do with my OP or what anyone is currently doing.

So the main question of this thread is what is the connection between circumcision and partaking of the lamb?

The reason i included those excerpts from the Sar Shalom website is because i thought the OP may have had in mind a Yeshua-centered synagogue like Sar Shalom ...

It's not about what any synagogue is doing, I am going by Torah and the requirements and how they effect or should effect the keeping of Passover today for those who believe in Yeshua

Try convincing FFOZ and other Torah Observant Messianic Judaism congregations not to open their Passover Seder Service to the public. That's why i posted *Sar Shalom's requirements because they may side with you (only Torah Observant circumcised males partake).

Please, this has nothing to do with my OP, you are again derailing this thread.

A little confusion here. Some may not realize you are referring to the *allegory (partaking of the lamb). As you rightly suggest it is a NO-NO today to include a lamb shank on a Messianic Seder plate. You give the impression that only circumcised males should partake of a Pesach Seder meal.

If by that you mean that Yeshua when he said 'This is my body' is an allegory, yes. I see no confusion.

As far as your last comment in that quote, from what I've listed as Torah requirements for partaking in the Seder, yes, that is what I am seeing. This should not lead to quotes of Acts 15 either as it did not mention Passover participation and it is generally agreed that those restrictions were for neophytes coming from a pagan background into the faith. It was not meant for the long run.

Since there is no sacrifice to be eaten, I see no problem with it.

However what I was trying to show is that the Matzah represents the sacrifice of Yeshua. That is why he said "this is my body, do this (passover Seder eating of matzoh) in remembrance of what he was sacrificing, himself.

There is meat at the seder, the sacrifice was not under supervision, nor is it considered a sacrifice even though the animal was killed for its flesh.

Not understanding what you are saying here. You don't have to have meat at Seders, there are vegetarian ones too.

What I'm saying is that the lamb shank traditionally put on the seder plate to represent the Passover and the egg the temple sacrifices should be replaced, (for believers in Yeshua) with the Matzah. As the scriptures I quoted show, he was both the lamb and the unleavened bread.

 

[Lulav]

Initially every male in Abraham's camp was to be circumcised - whether slave or free, whether a foreigner living in his camp, or not. It was a means of showing who was in this new 'family of G_d'.

First, thank you for keeping on topic, in this post. I agree with what you've said there but I am investigating if this didn't go further than that (your last sentence).

However, things get a bit muddled: the rubric set out by G_d excludes women, partly for anatomical reasons, and yet today, one has to be born of an uncircumcised person, to prove one's Jewishness, and women, being uncircumcised, are permitted to be at the Passover meal - or are they in all branches of Judaism?

It does not exclude women only in the sense that they didn't have that certain part required to be cut off. A Jewish woman is not considered uncircumcised as you said it is anatomically impossible. Now lets not get into other religions that do what is so called female circumcision, which is not really the same.

So where does that leave us if nearly half the people at the Passover meal are uncircumcised, anyway, but could eat of the lamb? In reality, this thread applies only to men at the Passover meal - in which case what is the difference (excluding issues of anatomy) between an uncircumcised woman, believer or not, who can sit at Passover and eat of the Lamb, because there is no Covenant for them, or against them, and an uncircumcised man who is a believer who may not?

Yes, in reality it would apply to only men. Again I am not agreeing about the women being 'uncircumcised' as that was not the requirement.

Right, what is the difference? what is the connection with the males being circumcised to be able to 'legally' partake of the Passover?

These are the regulations for the Passover. No foreigner, temporary resident or hired worker is to eat of it (12:43 and 12:45). Only those who identified themselves by faith with the people of God could take part in this observance.

An alien living among you, who has permanently settled with the Israelites, who wants to celebrate ADONAI’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the Land. No uncircumcised male may eat of it (12:48).

 

[Lulav]

Let's take into consideration this:

23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, That the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.
28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup.
29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body.

Now one of the things about the Lord's body was that he was circumcised as it says in Luke. But besides, that what is 'unworthy'? (in Verse 29 that word is not in the original Greek but is added, but the word 'anaxiōs' is in verse 27, translated as unworthily.

Since the requirement to partake in the Passover Seder and the eating of the unleavened bread and the drinking of the wine (no passover lamb here but the matzoh) was to be circumcised could it be referring to that?

Verse 27 can also be translated as:

Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be liable of the body and blood of the Lord.

'Liable' is a legal term which means there has to have been a law broken to be liable. Meaning you would be legally answerable to G-d about this action.

 

[Lulav]

​

The purpose of the OP debate [IMO] is to further discuss the orthodoxy (Torah Observant) of "Messianic Judaism" as Jew and non-Jew being equally yoked (Galatians 3:28) as opposed to what some Messianic [Jewish only] Synagogues refer to as "Yeshua-Centered Torah Observance" ( www.mysarshalom.com ) ...

"Ethnically Jewish members and non-ethnically Jewish members who have converted to Yeshua-Centered Judaism that upholds the bulk of normative Jewish teachings, writings and traditions, and embrace the Oral Torah (Talmud, etc). Jewish members that follow the most basic mitzvot; meaning Scriptural commandments and principles such as wearing tzitzit, eating kosher, separating meat and dairy, head-coverings, honoring the Shabbat by not working or buying and selling, praying with tefillin, etc. In simplest terms many “messianic synagogues” and “Hebrew roots” congregations composed of non-Jewish members do not fully embrace a Torah observant lifestyle. This is not a criticism, it’s simply an explanation." Sar Shalom Synagogue | FAQ​

This "Messianic Judaism" forum is considered by CF to be a form of Christianity (i.e. recently informed MJ members have to agree with Nicene Creed according to CF policy). Therefore, to even have this debate (circumcision vs non-circumcision) in this MJ forum runs counter to CFs interpretation of "Messianic Judaism" and this forum's SOP.

If certain MJ members of this forum don't want to attend a Pesach Seder Service with non-Torah Observant Christians then for sure don't attend a Passover Seder that is open to the public, but instead a Pesach Seder Service that is exclusively Jewish. Unfortunately, and i do mean unfortunately [IMO] this debate only raises a red flag of lingering anti-Paul sentiment (Galatians 3:28) that exists within the orthodoxy of more than a few Messianic Torah Observant Synagogues.

No, on all accounts. It's not about CF, or this forum, or any Messianic synagogue in existence right now. I am going by the requirements and restrictions as laid out in the torah for keeping the passover with Yeshua being both the lamb and the unleavened bread from heaven.

 

[Lulav]

There are many posts (again) in this thread that are totally off topic. I am not going to report them but I am going to delete them and ask for a final time to please stick to the topic or I'll have no other choice than to close this thread permanently.

I have taken some of the first Off topic and allowed them their own thread. If you want to talk about anything other than the direct Topic of this thread then please start your own thread, they're free, you can make as many as you like!

Now about THIS thread.

When we remember and keep the Passover we see the Matzoh as the bread from heaven, the body of Yeshua, the unblemished lamb.

QUESTION 1: If we participate in this and the ordinances for keeping the Passover say that one must be circumcised why is that not held to?

QUESTION 2:
What do you think circumcision has to do with eating of the Passover lamb or in this case the Matzah at the Seder meal?

So then today, believers who participate in a Seder, there shouldn't be a lamb shank on the plate for the true Lamb was slain, the true Sacrifice was made and the matzoh represents HIM

I am proposing that today (since the resurrection) the Seder should contain the Matzah and wine but no lamb shank as the Matzah is Yeshua and if you are to partake of that matzah, then you should be also circumcised. I don't see where this regulation was dismissed.