Is the "Real Presence" [catholic Holy Communion" Really REAL?

Major1

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I would add, however, that everyone recognizes that memorialist, symbolic nature of the sacrament and the elements themselves. So to say that Representationalism is what the Bible indicates isn't telling us much. The question is whether it is anything more than that as well.


That's what Jesus said, however. If he had said "This is a symbol of my body..." I would of course agree with you. But as we both know, he did not.

I wonder if you would agree that in like baptism, the power of the Communion service comes in what it symbolizes to Christians.

Water baptism is not a "physical death" but instead it is a type or a representation of spiritual death to sin.
Likewise, the Lord's Communion service is not an actual physical eating of Christ but instead it is a symbolic rebemberance to keep fresh in the believers mind that he is saved because of what Christ did for him

It seems to me that the event should remind us that we have willingly entered into a covenant relationship with Christ to do his will and not our own.
 
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prodromos

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Yes he was. But in your wildest dreams, do YOU think that he is the only one to say those things??????

I could have picked any number of sources my friend.
They all seem to simply re post the efforts of Monsieur Slick, usually without accreditation (what do they say about honor among thieves). It also brings to mind Matt 15:14
 
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Albion

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I wonder if you would agree that in like baptism, the power of the Communion service comes in what it symbolizes to Christians.
I appreciate your point, but I think it's more than that.

If we go by Christ's own words at the Last Supper where the sacrament was instituted, it just about HAS to mean more. Exactly what that "more" is might be discussed further, but I cant agree that the meaning is nothing but symbolism.

It seems to me that the event should remind us that we have willingly entered into a covenant relationship with Christ to do his will and not our own.
Sure, but as I said before and above, this IS inherent in the sacrament, and every Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, Presbyterian, etc. who believes in the Real Presence ought to acknowledge this aspect of the sacrament, too. I think most of them are alert enough that they do.
 
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Truth7t7

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They all seem to simply re post the efforts of Monsieur Slick, usually without accreditation (what do they say about honor among thieves). It also brings to mind Matt 15:14
I have nothing to do with your Slick.

Post your citations of the ECF'S teaching the sacrament contains the actual flesh and blood of Jesus Christ, you cant.

Get of the CARM diversion.

Tag your it!
 
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Truth7t7

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Obviously not. ;)
Post your scriptural reference, that teaches the actual physical flesh and blood of Jesus Christ are present in the sacrament.

The ECF taught actual bread and wine, and gave no hint of actual flesh and blood.
 
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Albion

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Post your scriptural reference, that teaches the actual physical flesh and blood of Jesus Christ are present in the sacrament.
When Christ himself says THIS IS MY BODY, we have no grounds for saying that his words "clearly" mean that the elements only symbolize or represent his body.
 
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Truth7t7

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When Christ himself says THIS IS MY BODY, we have no grounds for saying that his words "clearly" mean that the elements only symbolize or represent his body.
Jesus Christ symbolically took literal "BREAD" and broke it, not his literal physical flesh, get real Albion!

Breaking the bread is "Symbolic" of Christ's broken body.

1 Corinthians 11:23-27KJV
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

Justin Martyr 100-165AD First Apology,

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.
 
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prodromos

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Jesus Christ symbolically took literal "BREAD" and broke it, not his literal physical flesh, get real Albion!

Breaking the bread is "Symbolic" of Christ's broken body.

1 Corinthians 11:23-27KJV
23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread:
24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me.
25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me.
26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.
27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord.

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

Justin Martyr 100-165AD First Apology,

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.
And reading further;
Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist.
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.
 
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Truth7t7

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And reading further;
Chapter LXVI.—Of the Eucharist.
And this food is called among us Εὐχαριστία [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh.
"Jesus Took Bread"

"Bread And Wine An Water Are Brought"

The entire aspect and context is 100% "symbolic", your claim of literal flesh and blood is 100% false.

Jesus took bread and broke it as "symbolic" of his broken body.


Justin Martyr, First Apology.Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
 
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prodromos

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bread and wine and water are brought
Absolutely. The same thing happens in the Divine Liturgy today. We start with bread, wine and water which becomes Christ's flesh and blood. We can't go down to the supermarket to buy Christ's flesh and blood.
 
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Albion

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Jesus Christ symbolically took literal "BREAD" and broke it, not his literal physical flesh, get real Albion!
No, I think any reading of the Gospel account shows that he ACTUALLY took bread and said those words. :)

Breaking the bread is "Symbolic" of Christ's broken body.
Sure, there's all sorts of symbolism involved, but that doesn't mean that it was not something more in addition.

Justin Martyr clearly taught "Symbolic" Bread And Wine, That was distributed to the church.

Justin Martyr 100-165AD First Apology,

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons.
I'm sorry, but not only is that not "clearly" a statement to the effect that it is all symbolism, but there isn't any thing at all in that passage that says it is symbolism.

Now if you consult the church fathers who came earlier than Justin, you can see them testifying that the bread and wine are changed.

That does not mean that they are changed over entirely into something else (the Medieval doctrine that we call Transubstantiation which the Roman Catholic Church adopted), but changed none the less--which is called the doctrine of the Real Presence.
 
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Truth7t7

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Absolutely. The same thing happens in the Divine Liturgy today. We start with bread, wine and water which becomes Christ's flesh and blood. We can't go down to the supermarket to buy Christ's flesh and blood.
We will disagree, at no place does it state the actual flesh and blood are present, 100% symbolic, as Jesus Took Bread.
 
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Truth7t7

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No, I think any reading of the Gospel account shows that he ACTUALLY took bread and said those words. :)

Sure, there's all sorts of symbolism involved, but that doesn't mean that it was not something more in addition.

I'm sorry, but not only is that not "clearly" a statement to the effect that it is all symbolism, but there isn't any thing at all in that passage that says it is symbolism.

Now if you consult the church fathers who came earlier than Justin, you can see them testifying that the bread and wine are changed.

That does not mean that they are changed over entirely into something else (the Medieval doctrine that we call Transubstantiation which the Roman Catholic Church adopted), but changed none the less--which is called the doctrine of the Real Presence.
We will disagree, Justin Martyr taught of "Bread" being a symbolic representation, at no time does the context teach otherwise.

We will disagree.
 
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Albion

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We will disagree, Justin Martyr taught of "Bread" being a symbolic representation, at no time does the context teach otherwise..

Justin Martyr does not say that the bread is a "symbolic representation." However, in the passage you yourself gave us to consider, he says what I am showing in blue below. You chose not to highlight it.

...............................................................................................................
Justin Martyr, First Apology.Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.
 
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Truth7t7

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Justin Martyr does not say that the bread is a "symbolic representation." However, in the passage you yourself gave us to consider, he says what I am showing in blue below. You chose not to highlight it.

...............................................................................................................
Justin Martyr, First Apology.Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone.

You can post in blue all ya want, Jesus Christ took "Bread" symbolically for his body, case closed, the ECF'S taught the same.

"Jesus Took Bread"

"Bread And Wine An Water Are Brought"

The entire aspect and context is 100% "symbolic", your claim of literal flesh and blood is 100% false.

Jesus took bread and broke it as "symbolic" of his broken body.


Justin Martyr, First Apology.Saint Justin Martyr: First Apology (Roberts-Donaldson)

CHAPTER LXVI -- OF THE EUCHARIST.

And this food is called among us Eukaristia [the Eucharist], of which no one is allowed to partake but the man who believes that the things which we teach are true, and who has been washed with the washing that is for the remission of sins, and unto regeneration, and who is so living as Christ has enjoined. For not as common bread and common drink do we receive these; but in like manner as Jesus Christ our Saviour, having been made flesh by the Word of God, had both flesh and blood for our salvation, so likewise have we been taught that the food which is blessed by the prayer of His word, and from which our blood and flesh by transmutation are nourished, is the flesh and blood of that Jesus who was made flesh. For the apostles, in the memoirs composed by them, which are called Gospels, have thus delivered unto us what was enjoined upon them; that Jesus took bread, and when He had given thanks, said, "This do ye in remembrance of Me, this is My body;" and that, after the same manner, having taken the cup and given thanks, He said, "This is My blood;" and gave it to them alone. Which the wicked devils have imitated in the mysteries of Mithras, commanding the same thing to be done. For, that bread and a cup of water are placed with certain incantations in the mystic rites of one who is being initiated, you either know or can learn.

CHAPTER LXVII -- WEEKLY WORSHIP OF THE CHRIS- TIANS.

And we afterwards continually remind each other of these things. And the wealthy among us help the needy; and we always keep together; and for all things wherewith we are supplied, we bless the Maker of all through His Son Jesus Christ, and through the Holy Ghost. And on the day called Sunday, all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. And they who are well to do, and willing, give what each thinks fit; and what is collected is deposited with the president, who succours the orphans and widows and those who, through sickness or any other cause, are in want, and those who are in bonds and the strangers sojourning among us, and in a word takes care of all who are in need. But Sunday is the day on which we all hold our common assembly, because it is the first day on which God, having wrought a change in the darkness and matter, made the world; and Jesus Christ our Saviour on the same day rose from the dead. For He was crucified on the day before that of Saturn (Saturday); and on the day after that of Saturn, which is the day of the Sun, having appeared to His apostles and disciples, He taught them these things, which we have submitted to you also for your consideration.
 
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MarkRohfrietsch

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Then what would you call the Catholic church which has more un-biblical doctrines than a dog has ticks.?

Wax Candles introduced in church 320
Adiaphora
Veneration of angels and dead saints 375
The saints are not dead, but live eternally in Christ; Veneration and commemoration is an expression of faith in the eternity of the Church and God's grace. History and tradition are honored, not discarded. Like a road map, history and tradition show the Church where it's going, because you can not know how to get from point A to point B unless you know where or what point A is.
The Mass, as a daily celebration, adopted 394
Worshiping God and serving His people daily; great idea.
The worship of Mary, the mother of Jesus, and the use of the term, "Mother of God", as applied to her, originated in the Council of Ephesus 431
Worship is wrong, veneration is not. Unless you deny the divinity of Christ, she IS the Mother of God. The Bible certainly honors and commemorates her, as it does many New Testament saints as well as Old Testament Patriarchs.
Priests began to dress differently from the laity 500
Adiaphora
Extreme Unction 526
The anointing of the sick is in the Bible.
The doctrine of Purgatory was first established by Gregory the Great
The concept of the purging of one's sinful human nature seems to concur with Scripture considering how we are pure and sinless in Heaven. Some of the abuses that became associated with purgatory are not; it is not a place, but something that happens to the faithful.
 
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Major1

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Adiaphora

The saints are not dead, but live eternally in Christ; Veneration and commemoration is an expression of faith in the eternity of the Church and God's grace. History and tradition are honored, not discarded. Like a road map, history and tradition show the Church where it's going, because you can not know how to get from point A to point B unless you know where or what point A is.

Worshiping God and serving His people daily; great idea.

Worship is wrong, veneration is not. Unless you deny the divinity of Christ, she IS the Mother of God. The Bible certainly honors and commemorates her, as it does many New Testament saints as well as Old Testament Patriarchs.

Adiaphora

The anointing of the sick is in the Bible.

The concept of the purging of one's sinful human nature seems to concur with Scripture considering how we are pure and sinless in Heaven. Some of the abuses that became associated with purgatory are not; it is not a place, but something that happens to the faithful.

I am not going to argue with you. Your information states that you are Lutheran but your defense of the Catholic doctrines says something else. It is clear that you have the ability to accept and excuse what ever you choose to do.

The point was and still is that ALL of those listed procedures, and many more which I did not list, and beliefs ARE NOT FOUND IN THE SCRIPTURES! NOT ONE!

If you are comfortable with that they may the Lord bless you my friend.
 
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Major1

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When Christ himself says THIS IS MY BODY, we have no grounds for saying that his words "clearly" mean that the elements only symbolize or represent his body.

I would say that CONTEXT says otherwise.

I would also say the commands from God about eating blood says otherwise.
 
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No, I think any reading of the Gospel account shows that he ACTUALLY took bread and said those words. :)

Sure, there's all sorts of symbolism involved, but that doesn't mean that it was not something more in addition.

I'm sorry, but not only is that not "clearly" a statement to the effect that it is all symbolism, but there isn't any thing at all in that passage that says it is symbolism.

Now if you consult the church fathers who came earlier than Justin, you can see them testifying that the bread and wine are changed.

That does not mean that they are changed over entirely into something else (the Medieval doctrine that we call Transubstantiation which the Roman Catholic Church adopted), but changed none the less--which is called the doctrine of the Real Presence.

I respect your understanding and your comments. You are always well versed and speak in a respectful manner and I thank you for that.

I will say to you that it is clearly known that the RCC makes it clear that they take John 6:54..................
"unless you eat of the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you".

When the whole of Scriptures are read we can see that the CONTEXT there is NOT in keeping with rest of the passage. Jesus said several times that the importance of faith in HIM and His coming atoning death, and resurrection for the sins of men and to remember the whole message of the Gospel.

Now then, when we look at the sacraments instituted by the RCC we can see that they convey as sanctifying grace is NOT agreeable with the context of the Bible. The RCC does these things because they want to and not because the Scriptures say to.

Should Christians be baptized after they accept Jesus Christ? YES!
But baptism does not fill us with grace now does it.

Should Christians be involved in the Lord's Supper after they are saved? YES!
But partaking of Communion does not fill us with sanctifying grace now does it?

Should Christians confess our sins after being saved. YES!
But not to a priest, but instead to God and a priest is not God any more than is the Pope.

Having a formal training program and formal acceptance into the church is a good thing to do, but it does not convey saving grace.

Being approved as a church leader is an honorable thing, but it does not result in grace.

Marriage is a wonderful and blessed event in the life of a couple, but it is not the means of how God graces us.

Praying for and with a person who is dying is a godly thing to do – but it does not add grace to our account.
 
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