THE READINESS RAPTURE: It's not just another rapture theory

[rollinTHUNDER]

Congrats rolling thunder and choose wisely because your both wrong.

Matthew 24:29-31 & Matthew 25:31-46 is the exact same second coming of Jesus Christ, with the very same angels.

Nope, the sign of His coming and the gathering together of His elect is not the same as the judgment of the nations. The goats are going to be burned in the fire. Where do you see anyone burning in Matt. 24?

I love how people resist the truth trying to defend their personal beliefs.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

I believe that Matthew 24 is Jesus telling the Jews BOTH PLIGHTS of the Jews, some will be Christians and MOST will not be Christians so Jesus needs to answer both options right? So Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming. We know this because we see all 15 Signs Jesus spoke of.

My TAKE is pretty simple:

1. The Temple is destroyed (Matthew 24:2)
2. Israel puts forth fake Messiah's jut before the 70 AD defeat. (vs. 5)
3. 70 AD defeat and dispersing of Israel. (vs .6)
The above events are 70 AD and before.

4. There will be Wars, Famines and Pestilences/2000 year Church age. (vs.7)
5. The world kills the Disciples and hate Christians/Rome/ Islam etc. all. (vs. 9-10)
6. False prophets/teachers flourish over the 2000 year Church Age. (vs. 11)
7. Hardhearted/Cold people become the norm just before Jesus returns. (vs. 12)
8. The Gospel must be preached unto all the whole world before the Rapture. (vs. 14)
The above events happen before the Tribulation Begins or from 70 AD until the Rapture.

9. The Abomination of Desolation must happen. (vs. 15)
10. Israel must FLEE JUDEA for 1260 days to Petra. (vs. 16)
11. There must be GREAT TRIBULATION like never before. (vs. 21)
12. The False Christ and False Prophet show up doing Miracles. (vs. 24)
13. The Eagles (Church) will be gathered at Armageddon (Carcass vs. 28)
14. The sun and moon give not their light/Stars(Demons) fall to earth. (vs.29)
15. Jesus appears in the Eastern Skies for all men to see !! (vs. 30-31)
The above events happen during the Tribulation Period just after the Rapture.

Only the people born during or just before the Tribulation period can be the Generation that sees all of these signs come to pass. No other generation can be the generation that fulfills Jesus' prophetic uttering's. Jesus said that the Generation that sees ALL OF THESE THINGS will not pass until they see the Second Coming, hence he can not be speaking of the Rapture because many of these signs happen after the Rapture and during the Tribulation period.

Matthew 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near,even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Jesus did not say when you see half of these things, or some of these things but ALL OF THESE THINGS, then I will be nigh at the door !! And THAT GENERATION shall not pass until they see the Second Coming of Jesus which is duly noted in verses 30 and 31. The 15th Sign so to speak is the LAST SIGN and finishes up the prophecy.

The three signs that happened before 70 AD do not add up to ALL OF THESE THINGS !!

The eight signs that happen before the coming Rapture do not add up to ALL OF THESE THINGS and thus it can only be those people living after the Rapture that can fulfill this Prophecy !!

Those living during the Tribulation period are the ONLY GENERATION that can see ALL OF THESE THINGS that Jesus spoke of. The Abomination of Desolation, Israel Fleeing Judea, the Greatest Troubles ever, the Anti-Christ & False Prophet, the battle of Armageddon (Eagles gathered at the Carcass), the sun and moon not giving its lights and Satan (stars) being cast down to earth. And LAST BUT NOT LEAST:

Jesus appearing in the Eastern Skies for all humanity to see !!

Matthew 36 on to the end of the chapter, in my opinion, is the Rapture, but it was not understood as such by Matthew. Jesus only gave the Rapture understanding unto Paul because it was a SECRET meant for the Church which was going t mostly be Gentile because the Jews had been blinded, IN PART meaning mostly, only a few Jews would be Messianic Jews throughout the 2000 some odd year Church Age.

Looking at the clues in Matthew 24:36 on, they all fit the Rapture, not the so called Second Coming which is indeed Matthew 24:29-31, after the Tribulation of those days.

1.) As in the days of Noah, they will be drinking, eating and marrying.
2.) There will be two in the field, one will be taken another left.
3.) There will be two at the mill grinding, one will be taken he other left.
4.) Watch, for you know not what hour your Lord will come.

These clues do not fit the Second Coming but do fit the Rapture.

Now will anyone be Marrying, partying and feasting just before the Second Coming? Ughhh, no they will not, they will be dodging the Seven Vials of Gods Wrath, WHY WOULD THE BE PARTYING? This is speaking about the Rapture, when the Church leaves, impending DOOM will be upon the world, but like the Rain in Noah's day, there has to be a set amount of time before the Rain that's falling will turn to a flood. In 3.5 years, there will be no escaping Gods coming Wrath for unbelievers, they sure will not be drinking and partying during Gods Judgment !!

Thus Jesus told the Jews about the Rapture without REVEALING the Secret. One will be taken and the other left. You can tell Matthew has no idea what it means, if he did he would have placed it between verses 14 and 15 in Matthew 24, not at the end, after the Second Coming.

Then Jesus says WATCH, for you know not what hour your Lord will come. Well that doesn't really fit The Second Coming does it? We know that Jesus will Return 1260 Days after the Children of Israel re SCATTERED/FLEE, and 42 Months after the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, and we know God can not lie. The world can also see that the Armageddon Battle is upon them, they will know Jesus will be coming what they see the troop build up at Meggido. Its not going to be a surprise at all. But the rapture WILL BE A SURPRISE !!

So the Rapture is spoken of in Matthew chapter 24, as is the so called Second Coming. Jesus has returned many times, after he Ascended to the Father he returned in John ch. 20. He told Mary not to defile him by touching him, then 8 days later he told Thomas to place his fingers in his WOUNDS!! So its not really the Second Coming, bit we will go with that anyway.

Now as per Matthew 25. I think missing the Rapture in Matthew 24:36 on, thus confusing you about the Second Coming also kind of throws you off in Matthew 25.

Matthew 25 has three things its teaching us. Those without the Holy Spirit will not be Raptured to be with the Lord in Heaven for the MARRIAGE (Rev. ch. 19) they will be shut out, they had NO OIL to see when they were called, meaning their bodies (Oil Lamps) did not have enough Oil (Holy Spirit) to guide them unto Jesus, because they tarried. These people are shut out of the Wedding, but they can then make it to Heaven, but they will be the REMNANT CHURCH of Rev. 12:17, they will not be protected like the WOMAN (Israel) in the Wilderness, thus most will be the Beheaded under the Alter crying for vengeance !! That is d they do not SERVE THE BEAST !!

This is why Jesus gives the parable about the TALENTS just after he tells about the 5 Virgins being SHUT OUT, and that is supposed to show why they were shut out. They had NO HOLY SPIRIT, hence they did nothing in Gods name, but they followed the world, the spirit of this world and did not further Gods Kingdom by feeding the needy, clothing the needy, and of course this means in a SPIRITUAL MANNER likewise. The people of this world need to hear Gods Word, they need to be clothed in Gods Word, they need to be fed the BREAD OF LIFE !! They need to see Jesus in action through us. We can just say we believe, we believe. God wants us to go unto the masses and bring the Gospel of Jesus Christ unto the MASSES IF WE BELIEVE !! To reach the lost and needy, and to SERVE THEM !! Amen.

So I agree, Matthew 24 and 25 go together. But Chapter 24 tells of both the Second Coming and the Rapture, Matthew just was not told the SECRET RAPTURE UNDERSTANDING, Paul was given the secret, he even called it a MYSTERY/SECRET.

Then Matthew 25 is Jesus giving them EXAMPLES of why the Virgins are shut out. Then he tells about WASTED TALENTS !! They two go hand in hand. In verse 31, if you take notice, the ELECT are gathered from the FOUR CORNERS of Heaven, meaning we just married the Lamb in Heaven right before the Second Coming.

Nope, He did not tell the Jews about both plights of the Jews. He simply answered His disciples question about the sign of His coming AND the end of the age. All you're doing is complicating His answer because it does not fit what you believe. But here's a question: Will it all be fulfilled according to the Holy scriptures or will it be fulfilled in accordance with what men believe?

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Olivet Timing Revealed by Luke’s Gospel:

Compare Luke's Gospel to that of Matthew if you want to understand the timing.

Jesus Foretells Destruction of the Temple (These subtitles are found in e-Sword.)

We've already had this discussion before and did not agree, so there's no point in having it again. Luke 21 was mostly about the temple destruction of the first century. He also vaguely mentioned that there will be signs in the sun, moon and stars (no specifics), the distress of nations. Then he vaguely added that they will see the Son of man coming in the clouds, but again no details. Christ laid it all out in Matthew 24. He did not talk about the destruction of the temple anymore when He answered their question about the sign of His coming and the end of the age.

Luke 21:25-28 is all that is said about the coming of the Son of man, but Matthew gave us a chapter and a half. If you want to learn about the destruction of the temple in the 1st century, read Luke 21. If you to read about the sign of His coming and the end of the age, read Matthew chapters 24 & 25.

You always try to minimize Matt. 24, because of your preterist beliefs, that everything has been fulfilled. But the only thing fulfilled is the destruction of the temple. That we can agree on, but I'm not going to waste time arguing with preterists.

This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Luk 21:12　 But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and prisons. You will be brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.　

(Mat 24:9　 "Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and kill you, and you will be hated by all nations for My name's sake.)　(Read Acts 22:19-20, where Paul reveals that he fulfilled this text.)

LOL. Got a real problem here don't ya? So Luke says that nation will rise against nation and famines and pestilence occur...............but before they happen he tells us about the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

But Matthew uses the word THEN and continues into the future after nations rise against nations.

So Luke talks 70AD and Matthew talks about a future temple and you somehow want to throw in that blue line of bull about Act 22 19-20 being the fulfillment. What was Paul killed? And you still haven't taken care of the timing problem of the word THEN.

LOL........ALWAYS LEARNING BUT NEVER COMING TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.

 

[Revealing Times]

Nope, He did not tell the Jews about both plights of the Jews. He simply answered His disciples question about the sign of His coming AND the end of the age. All you're doing is complicating His answer because it does not fit what you believe. But here's a question: Will it all be fulfilled according to the Holy scriptures or will it be fulfilled in accordance with what men believe?

Well nope doesn't cit it brother. I have spent up to a year doing an exegesis on Matthew 24. And Jesus clearly told about both as I proved in my post. You simply have a preconceived notion and the facts don't seem to matter. I believe you misconstrue the scriptures, everyone understands Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming except you. Think about that for a minute brother. Anytime we are "GIVEN" a unique understanding that no on else has, be very wary of the voice that's telling you this.

 

[Truth7t7]

Nope, the sign of His coming and the gathering together of His elect is not the same as the judgment of the nations. The goats are going to be burned in the fire. Where do you see anyone burning in Matt. 24?

I love how people resist the truth trying to defend their personal beliefs.

There is only "One Future Event" when Jesus Christ returns in glory with the angels.

You falsely teach the scripture below represents different events of Jesus Christ returning in glory, 100% error.

Matthew 24:30-31KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[Revealing Times]

Hi Revealing Times. Always enjoy reading your posts. I used to believe exactly what you are writing here. However............
None of these events have occurred. There are still stones upon another........despite what the blind say.

Jesus was saying the Temple will be destroyed. The Temple was destroyed, now we speak about some "outer wall" that many Jews say is not really a part if the Temple. The Temple is the Temple where God dwelt in the INNER SANCTUM.

The complete destruction will occur when the third temple is destroyed...........in the last days. Jesus is talking about the last days, answering the questions that were asked........not giving a complete earth history lesson.

Jesus' Prophecy was about the 70 AD event, all you have to do is follow the time line, the Temple being destroyed was spoken about before he told the Disciples they would be killed in vs. 9-10.

The above events occur after the pretribulation rapture. Jesus is answering last days questions. After the pretribulation rapture occurs the seals are opened. This is the wars and famines being discussed, the last days red and black horses.

No they don't brother, I have done a full exegesis on Matthew chapter 24. You and many others so want to make Matthew ch. 24 about the Seals being opened, and it has nothing to do with that at all until after verse 15. The Disciples are told they will BE KILLED in verses 9 and 10, then the false preachers of the 2000 year church age are spoken of, and the Gospel must be preached unto ALL THE WORLD............Then the END COMES !!

You have allowed men to guide you wrong here brother and give you half truths, I looked at this 25 ago and understood this couldn't be factual for many reasons. Then when I did an Exegesis on the whole chapter it all became very clear that the KEY to this was understanding the three mentions of false christs (vs. 5)......false prophets (vs. 11) and..........THE FALSE PROPHET and THE ANTI-CHRIST (Fake Christ verse 24).

Jesus is not mentioning these three time periods for nothing. There are THREE UNIQUE TIME PERIODS Jesus is speaking about here on Matt. ch. 24.

1.) Pre 70 AD false christs the Pharisees put forth because they saw Rome as the Fourth Beast, which it was, so thus hey expected the Little Horn to come forth via Rome. Little did they know that wouldn't happen for 2000 some odd years in the future. Thus they FULFILLED Jesus' prophecy in John 5:43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive.

2.) Verse 11 is the mention of FALSE PROPHETS = teachers/preachers/rabbis over a 2000 year period of time, that's why it comes before the mention of the preaching pf the Gospel unto all the world. When the time of the Gentiles come full, then the end will come. The Rapture of the Church brings in the coming 70th week.

3.) The 70th Week is the seven year period of time designed by God to bring Israel unto repentance. The.....THE FALSE PROPHET and......THE ANTI-CHRIST will preform WONDERS in verse 24 just like the duo in Rev. chapter 13 does. Thus Jesus gave us all three time periods, just like I say in my exegesis. It looks fairly simple to me to be honest.

Matt 24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

When did Jesus tell them before. He told them in verses 4 and 5.
Matthew 24
4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

Jesus is not giving a lesson on the history of the world. He is telling the FOUR disciples......and LUKE is not one of them, what will happen in the last days. The last days are the 7 seals.

NO, NO, NO...You are misconstruing this, I now see one more reason you got off course here brother. Jesus is telling them 2000 years ago....In verse 24....that BEHOLD, I HAVE TOLD YOU BEFORE... Before the False Prophet and Anti-Christ try to DECEIVE YOU 2000 years from now during the TRIBULATION PERIOD !! Thus you Jewish peoples who FLEE unto the Wilderness and are PROTECTED, do not listen unto their lies that it is Christ in the DESERT or the Christ in the SECRET CHAMBERS, for I have told you BEFORE (as in 2000 years BEFORE that event happens) where I will be coming from. Thus he tells them to BELIEVE NOT THE LIES !! But then you left off what he actually told them that cleared it all up in the very next verse !!

Matt. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Jesus TOLD THEM BEFORE...where he would be COMING FROM !! You missed it brother. That was Jesus' point, they were warned not to go unto the Anti-Christ and False Prophet from their protected zone, and then told WHY.........................Jesus will not be in the DESERT nor in the SECRET CHAMBERS, but will instead be coming from the EASTERN SKIES !! Thus they were TOLD BEFOREHAND, thus its not capable for these ELECT to be deceived, because they were WARNED by Jesus Christ which tells us what? Israel repents before they FLEE into the Wilderness. Amen.

So your mistake here brother is you are looking at BEFORE as in verses 5, instead of from the TRIBULATION JEWS Back in time, where Jesus warned them where he would be coming from BEFORE the events happened, 2000 years ago he warned them what to look for. Its an easy mistake to make. I spent a year looking in depth into this chapter because I understood it was a very important chapter and people were getting it confused with the coming Seal Judgments.

So Jesus is telling the Disciples just what they asked him. When will these things be (TEMPLE DESTROYED) and what will be the SIGN OF YOUR COMING (Jesus gave 15 signs), and what will be the END OF THE WORLD (End of the Age). So Jesus gives them all three, but he also gives them the Rapture because SOME JEWS will of course be be Raptured !!

This is not Armageddon, it is the gathering when the earth will mourn when they see the coming of the Messiah. This is prior to the wrath of God.............not after the wrath of God.

Let me prove to you its Armageddon via the scriptures brother, that's the best I can do.

Matt. 24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.

Rev. 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls (EAGLES in vs. 28 above) that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

The Marriage Supper happens at Armageddon.

For as the lightening comes out of the EAST, and shines unto the WEST, so shall the coming of the Son of Man (Jesus) be. For WHERESOEVER the CARCASS is at the EAGLES will be gathered there also. Thus its speaking about the Bride being at the Marriage Supper dining on the FLESH of all the WICKED of the world. Where the Carcass is at is where the Eagles (FOWLS OF GOD/Bride) will be at. Its a METAPHOR of course, but the Carcass will be the Flesh of the Wicked at Armageddon.


Getting long, I will do another post to finish up..........

 

[BABerean2]

LOL. Got a real problem here don't ya? So Luke says that nation will rise against nation and famines and pestilence occur...............but before they happen he tells us about the destruction of the temple in 70AD.

But Matthew uses the word THEN and continues into the future after nations rise against nations.

So Luke talks 70AD and Matthew talks about a future temple and you somehow want to throw in that blue line of bull about Act 22 19-20 being the fulfillment. What was Paul killed? And you still haven't taken care of the timing problem of the word THEN.

LOL........ALWAYS LEARNING BUT NEVER COMING TO THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE TRUTH.

 

[BABerean2]

You always try to minimize Matt. 24, because of your preterist beliefs, that everything has been fulfilled. But the only thing fulfilled is the destruction of the temple. That we can agree on, but I'm not going to waste time arguing with preterists.

This conversation is over as far as I'm concerned.

If you think I said everything in the Olivet Discourse was fulfilled in 70 AD, you are very confused.

Maybe you do not understand the difference between partial-preterism and other forms of preterism.

Luke 21:25-28 is clearly about the future Second Coming of Christ, and so is Matthew 24:29-31.

.

 

[Revealing Times]

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Rev 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

The 6th seal

You can't give HALF PASSAGES brother.

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.......What days? Will of course the Tribulation period where the Abomination of Desolation kicks off the 3.5 years of Gods Wrath. Immediately after that starts, then the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give her light, Satan is cast down to earth (stars fall), then the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds for all to see happens, and all the wicked of earth mourn of course.

So IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Abomination kicks off the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER PERIOD, we see these things start to happen. But that is after Matt. 24:15, not BEFORE verse 15.

So we agree Rev. ch. 6 is the opening of the first 6 Seals, but so what? That has nothing to do with Matt. 24:1-14 at all. I stated that Matt. 24:15-31 was the TRIBULATION PERIOD. So we agree on that, but Matt. 24:1-14 has absolutely nothing to do with the SIX SEALS at all.

Matt 24
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Rev 6
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

This has absolutely nothing to do with the SECOND COMING brother. The 6th Seal leads to the SEVEN TRUMPETS which leads to the SEVEN VIALS. Why would you think this shows Jesus returning? This is when the people of earth UNDERSTAND that they are in the Wrath of God. They see the SUPERNATURAL EVENTS spoken of by Joel and Jesus amongst others. But Matt. 24:30 really has nothing to do with anything in Rev. ch. 6, it has everything to do with the 6th Vial as per Armageddon, and the 7th Vial as per Jesus taking over after landing on the Mt. of Olives.

I used to think just like you......exactly. Now I understand there is a pretribulation rapture that occurs before the seals are opened that will allow an escape of the all the things that shall come to pass (meaning the last days 7 seals)
Luke 21
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

You kind of lost me here. I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. But it happens 3.5 years before the Seals are opened.

The gathering in Matthew 24 is this..........
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

The gathering in Matt. 24 is the Bride being gathered from the FOUR CORNERS of Heaven whence they have just Married the Lamb and are about to return to the battle of Armageddon on White Horses. I agree that Rev. 14 is the Harvest of the Wicked as per Armageddon, its the exact same EVENT as shown in Rev. ch. 16 and Rev. ch. 18. There is also a Harvest in verse 14. So two Harvests are shown in this chapter. But the book of Revelation is of course not in chronological order.

Which is also this...........
Rev 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

This I disagree with, it could be the Rev. 14 Harvest, those two Harvests might be different altogether. We do understand the verse 18-19 mention about the WINEPRESS for the Wicked is about the Armageddon Harvest, but the verse 14 mention could be about the 144,000 being gathered from the Wilderness. You see I think the 144,000 in Chapter 7 are the children of Israel and God tells the Angels to HOLD OFF the plagues until they are in their protected zone in the wilderness, thus the 12 x 12 x 12 is ALL ISRAEL or 144,000. Its not actually 144,000 people. Thus you see in Rev. 14 that they come to the Mt of Olives with Jesus Christ. I think that's the FIRST HARVEST shown in Rev. 14:14.

But the Rev. 7:9 verse has nothing to do with the 144,000, that is the Church/Bride being shown in Heaven, having already Married the Lamb of God seeing as they have their White Robes already. Whereas Rev. ch. 19 is the full view of the Church in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb. Whereas Rev. 7:9 is the Church shown after having Married the Lamb, at the MIDWAY POINT, when Israel FLEES into the Wilderness, which is what I think the 144,000 is, God SEALING those Jews who repented where the Anti-Christ/Satan can't get at them. (See Rev. ch. 12)

And we can prove it by this..............

Rev 6
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand

Rev 14
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

These two do not mesh at all brother. Rev. 14:1 happens at Rev. 16:19 go look at it. Not at Rev. ch. 6:17, you are getting way ahead of yourself here.

Certainly all eyes will see the Messiah in Matt 24, however it is not the time when Jesus sets up it kingdom...........it is not the time we come on white horses. It is not Armageddon. It is the beginning of the wrath of God.

So rollinTHUNDER is correct in what he is saying, he just hasn't figured out that there will be a pretribulation rapture.

I know this is a lot for you to take in........because you have to rethink everything.

Yes, we return with Jesus in Matt. 24:31. When it says IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, it means after it is SET OFF by Jesus opening the Seals. The First Seal has to come via Matt. 24:15, then the TROUBLES/WARS etc. will happen after that, then when Jesus RETURNS in the EASTERN SKIES for all to see, that is Armageddon brother.

I do not rethink the Holy Spirits directive my brother. But I appreciate the back and forth in a good spirit. It sharpens us for battle.

 

[seventysevens]

nvm\

 

[Truth7t7]

You can't give HALF PASSAGES brother.

Matt. 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: 30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days.......What days? Will of course the Tribulation period where the Abomination of Desolation kicks off the 3.5 years of Gods Wrath. Immediately after that starts, then the sun will be darkened, the moon will not give her light, Satan is cast down to earth (stars fall), then the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds for all to see happens, and all the wicked of earth mourn of course.

So IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Abomination kicks off the GREATEST TROUBLES EVER PERIOD, we see these things start to happen. But that is after Matt. 24:15, not BEFORE verse 15.

So we agree Rev. ch. 6 is the opening of the first 6 Seals, but so what? That has nothing to do with Matt. 24:1-14 at all. I stated that Matt. 24:15-31 was the TRIBULATION PERIOD. So we agree on that, but Matt. 24:1-14 has absolutely nothing to do with the SIX SEALS at all.



This has absolutely nothing to do with the SECOND COMING brother. The 6th Seal leads to the SEVEN TRUMPETS which leads to the SEVEN VIALS. Why would you think this shows Jesus returning? This is when the people of earth UNDERSTAND that they are in the Wrath of God. They see the SUPERNATURAL EVENTS spoken of by Joel and Jesus amongst others. But Matt. 24:30 really has nothing to do with anything in Rev. ch. 6, it has everything to do with the 6th Vial as per Armageddon, and the 7th Vial as per Jesus taking over after landing on the Mt. of Olives.


You kind of lost me here. I believe in a pre-tribulation Rapture. But it happens 3.5 years before the Seals are opened.



The gathering in Matt. 24 is the Bride being gathered from the FOUR CORNERS of Heaven whence they have just Married the Lamb and are about to return to the battle of Armageddon on White Horses. I agree that Rev. 14 is the Harvest of the Wicked as per Armageddon, its the exact same EVENT as shown in Rev. ch. 16 and Rev. ch. 18. There is also a Harvest in verse 14. So two Harvests are shown in this chapter. But the book of Revelation is of course not in chronological order.



This I disagree with, it could be the Rev. 14 Harvest, those two Harvests might be different altogether. We do understand the verse 18-19 mention about the WINEPRESS for the Wicked is about the Armageddon Harvest, but the verse 14 mention could be about the 144,000 being gathered from the Wilderness. You see I think the 144,000 in Chapter 7 are the children of Israel and God tells the Angels to HOLD OFF the plagues until they are in their protected zone in the wilderness, thus the 12 x 12 x 12 is ALL ISRAEL or 144,000. Its not actually 144,000 people. Thus you see in Rev. 14 that they come to the Mt of Olives with Jesus Christ. I think that's the FIRST HARVEST shown in Rev. 14:14.

But the Rev. 7:9 verse has nothing to do with the 144,000, that is the Church/Bride being shown in Heaven, having already Married the Lamb of God seeing as they have their White Robes already. Whereas Rev. ch. 19 is the full view of the Church in Heaven, Marrying the Lamb. Whereas Rev. 7:9 is the Church shown after having Married the Lamb, at the MIDWAY POINT, when Israel FLEES into the Wilderness, which is what I think the 144,000 is, God SEALING those Jews who repented where the Anti-Christ/Satan can't get at them. (See Rev. ch. 12)



These two do not mesh at all brother. Rev. 14:1 happens at Rev. 16:19 go look at it. Not at Rev. ch. 6:17, you are getting way ahead of yourself here.



Yes, we return with Jesus in Matt. 24:31. When it says IMMEDIATELY AFTER the Tribulation, it means after it is SET OFF by Jesus opening the Seals. The First Seal has to come via Matt. 24:15, then the TROUBLES/WARS etc. will happen after that, then when Jesus RETURNS in the EASTERN SKIES for all to see, that is Armageddon brother.

I do not rethink the Holy Spirits directive my brother. But I appreciate the back and forth in a good spirit. It sharpens us for battle.

Matthew 24:30 has nothing to do with the second coming, 100% false.

There is only "One Future Return" of Jesus Christ.

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

Do you think thats a dream of imagination?

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

Well nope doesn't cit it brother. I have spent up to a year doing an exegesis on Matthew 24. And Jesus clearly told about both as I proved in my post. You simply have a preconceived notion and the facts don't seem to matter. I believe you misconstrue the scriptures, everyone understands Matthew 24:29-31 is the Second Coming except you. Think about that for a minute brother. Anytime we are "GIVEN" a unique understanding that no on else has, be very wary of the voice that's telling you this.

So, why did you stop at Matthew 24? You, like countless others, only read half of Christ's answer. Therefore, your study is invalid and incomplete.

Matt. 24:31 = Rapture (gathering together of His elect)
Matt. 25:31 = Second coming/end of the age (Judgment of the nations).

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

There is only "One Future Event" when Jesus Christ returns in glory with the angels.

You falsely teach the scripture below represents different events of Jesus Christ returning in glory, 100% error.

Matthew 24:30-31KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

You might want to read Rev. 19. And by the way, scripture also says that in heaven we will be like the angels.

 

[Jonathan Leo]

This dude is totally confused. If this makes sense ..........

Never worried about the rapture thing but one thing always caught my mind about the last days when I was a young Christian.
It will be like the days of Noah and sodom. Both those days were disasters and very few escaped.
Kind of sums up the wide and narrow gate lol

 

[Revealing Times]

So, why did you stop at Matthew 24? You, like countless others, only read half of Christ's answer. Therefore, your study is invalid and incomplete.

Matt. 24:31 = Rapture (gathering together of His elect)
Matt. 25:31 = Second coming/end of the age (Judgment of the nations).

I explained what Matt. 25 meant in my other post. Matt. 24:29-31 is the SECOND COMING.

Matthew 24:30 has nothing to do with the second coming, 100% false.

There is only "One Future Return" of Jesus Christ.

"They Shall See The Son Of Man Coming"

Do you think thats a dream of imagination?

Matthew 24:30KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Jesus will be seen when he returns by all mankind.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matt. 26:63-64 "Then the high priest said to Him, “I demand in the name of the living God—tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus replied, “You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven."


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (this is the Rapture - some wonder, how can those who sleep in Christ come with Him and rise first also: "they" are coming in spirit form and their bodies in the graves will change from corruptible to incorruptible because there can be no corruption in heaven)

So every man will see Christ coming in the Clouds. That will happen when the Church and Jesus come back from Heaven, just after the Marriage of the Bride unto the Lamb.

 

[Truth7t7]

You might want to read Rev. 19. And by the way, scripture also says that in heaven we will be like the angels.

You might read the scripture again, to see your teaching is 100% error.

There is only "One Future Event" when Jesus Christ returns in glory with the angels.

You falsely teach the scripture below represents different events of Jesus Christ returning in glory, 100% error.

Matthew 24:30-31KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[Truth7t7]

I explained what Matt. 25 meant in my other post. Matt. 24:29-31 is the SECOND COMING.



Jesus will be seen when he returns by all mankind.

Rev. 1:7 Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen.

Matt. 26:63-64 "Then the high priest said to Him, “I demand in the name of the living God—tell us if you are the Messiah, the Son of God.” Jesus replied, “You have said it. And in the future you will see the Son of Man seated in the place of power at God’s right hand and coming on the clouds of heaven."


1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
"But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord." (this is the Rapture - some wonder, how can those who sleep in Christ come with Him and rise first also: "they" are coming in spirit form and their bodies in the graves will change from corruptible to incorruptible because there can be no corruption in heaven)

So every man will see Christ coming in the Clouds. That will happen when the Church and Jesus come back from Heaven, just after the Marriage of the Bride unto the Lamb.

You previously stated Matthew 24:30 is not the second coming, your teaching is in error, as this is the second coming of Jesus Christ.

There is only "One Future Event" when Jesus Christ returns in glory with the angels.

You falsely teach the scripture below represents different events of Jesus Christ returning in glory, 100% error.

Matthew 24:30-31KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

 

[rollinTHUNDER]

You might read the scripture again, to see your teaching is 100% error.

There is only "One Future Event" when Jesus Christ returns in glory with the angels.

You falsely teach the scripture below represents different events of Jesus Christ returning in glory, 100% error.

Matthew 24:30-31KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

These are two events as I've already proved it.
Matt. 24 is His (appearing) - the sign of His coming.
Matt. 25:31 is His second coming/end of the age, both of which are exactly what His disciples asked Him. (See Matt. 24:3)

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

 

[Truth7t7]

These are two events as I've already proved it.
Matt. 24 is His (appearing) - the sign of His coming.
Matt. 25:31 is His second coming/end of the age, both of which are exactly what His disciples asked Him. (See Matt. 24:3)

2 Timothy 4:1 (KJV)
"I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;"

You havent proved a thing except error in your teaching, both represent the second coming of Jesus Christ.

There is only "One Future Event" when Jesus Christ returns in glory with the angels.

You falsely teach the scripture below represents different events of Jesus Christ returning in glory, 100% error.

Matthew 24:30-31KJV
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Matthew 25:31KJV
31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: