Sign of the Son of Man in Heaven

tranquil

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Note: I don't believe in a whisked away rapture. In my opinion, it is a lie of Satan to cause the apostasy. So, talking about the sign of the son of man is not to be taken as promoting a 'rapture date'. Nor it is to be taken as setting a date for Christ's return, which is not possible to determine and may only have a symbolic fulfillment.

IMO, here is the 'sign of the son of man in heaven', which will occur on Feb 11, 2021.

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the sun, Saturn, Jupiter, and Venus form one axis of the cross (with Jupiter & Venus in conjunction), and Mercury and the moon forming the arms of the cross.

the neat thing about this cross sign is that it occurs 3.5 days short of exactly 42 months from Sept 23, 2017's star sign. Revelation 12:1-2 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was pregnant and was crying out in birth pains and the agony of giving birth.

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From 3 Tishri, 5778 to 3 Adar, 5781 (starting at dusk Feb 14, 2021) is exactly 42 months and thus early morning Feb 11, 2021 is 3.5 days shorter. (lunar month is about 29.5 days, multiply by 42 to get roughly 1240/ 1239 days depending on the month Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results

So, let's go back to Matt 24

15 “So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let the one who is on the housetop not go down to take what is in his house, 18 and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. 19 And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days!

20 Pray that your flight may not be in winter or on a Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.​


29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​


so, the sequence goes:

People in Judea see the abomination of desolation. (this is where the woman of Rev 12 goes into the wilderness for 1260 days/ 'time, times, and half time' - aka 42 months, and the 42 months will start on the winter solstice, then the abomination will probably be available to be seen around 20 days prior, since 1260 days is longer than 1240 days. Thus, the 1260 days of the woman in the wilderness would probably start at 15 Kislev, 5781 (Dec 1, 2020), the historical date for the abomination. 15 Kislev is the abomination statue of Zeus, then on 25 Kislev is when they sacrificed to the statue in the temple according to Maccabbees. The 42 months/ bible months would start on the winter solstice - see verse 20 above.

The great tribulation starts shortly thereafter on the winter solstice. Now, if we say that the abomination arrives at Jerusalem on the winter solstice to start the great tribulation, check this out: 6th of Tevet, 5781 (1st day of winter, Dec 21, 2020) add 42 Bible months/ lunar months to get to 6th of Iyyar, 5784 (May 14, 2024) which is Israel's Independence Day/ aka Yom Hatzmaut. Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results If we add 1290 days for the abomination start (Dan 12:11-13) to this same date, we get July 3, 2024 Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results . (Bible days go from dusk to dusk, so the Gregorian calendar day of 'July 4' in Bible terms would begin dusk the day before, ie dusk July 3.) In other words, we get the US Independence Day. More on this in a bit)

Rev 12
13 And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time. 15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

And I saw a beast rising out of the sea, with ten horns and seven heads, with ten diadems on its horns and blasphemous names on its heads. 2 And the beast that I saw was like a leopard; its feet were like a bear's, and its mouth was like a lion's mouth. And to it the dragon gave his power and his throne and great authority. 3 One of its heads seemed to have a mortal wound, but its mortal wound was healed, and the whole earth marveled as they followed the beast. 4 And they worshiped the dragon, for he had given his authority to the beast, and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who can fight against it?”

5 And the beast was given a mouth uttering haughty and blasphemous words, and it was allowed to exercise authority for forty-two months. 6 It opened its mouth to utter blasphemies against God, blaspheming his name and his dwelling, that is, those who dwell in heaven. 7 Also it was allowed to make war on the saints and to conquer them. And authority was given it over every tribe and people and language and nation, 8 and all who dwell on earth will worship it, everyone whose name has not been written before the foundation of the world in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.​

When Satan attacks the 'woman' in Judea with the abomination of desolation, then she flees to the wilderness for 42 months. Then, Satan goes to war upon Christians with the beast from the sea & earth (but we're not quite there yet).

So, the great tribulation has started at Dec 21, 2020. We know that this 'great tribulation' gets cut short because of Matt 24:

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, and never will be. 22 And if those days had not been cut short, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short. 23 Then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘There he is!’ do not believe it. 24For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 So, if they say to you, ‘Look, he is in the wilderness,’ do not go out. If they say, ‘Look, he is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. 27 For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man. 28 Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

If that star sign above is indeed the 'sign of the son of man', then we know that it will be over before Feb 11, 2021. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", then comes the 'sign of the son of man in heaven'. the 'sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken' is a reference to the 6th Seal & the first 4 Trumpets (the stars fall = the 'burning mountain'/ 2nd Trumpet & wormwood/ 3rd Trumpet; powers of heaven are shaken at the 4th Trumpet)

If we say that the great tribulation is over on 24 Sh'vat, 5781 (Feb 6, 2021), we would fulfill the 'immediately after the tribulation of those days (that ended on Feb 6, 2021), then the sign of the son of man would appear 'immediately after' Feb 6 (appearing on Feb 11, 2021).

If we start with Feb 6, 2021 (24 Sh'vat, 5781) and say that these are the events of the first 4 Trumpets, then we would immediately start the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet that would take us to 24 Tammuz, 5781, which is July 4, 2021. This July 4, 2021 would be 245 years after the Declaration of Independence on July 4, 1776. 245 years being the middle of 70 '7's that are broken in the middle thereof (490 years divide by 2 = 245) (Daniel 9:27). This would be when the abomination of desolation is brought to the US, breaking the covenant in the middle of 70 '7's. This would be the start of the 6th Trumpet war and the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses & when Satan wages war on Christians with the beast from the sea & earth.

Again, there are 2 attacks by Satan in relation to the day of the Lord & the sign of the son of man in heaven:
  • the 1st attack is on the woman before the day of the Lord, (seems to be nation-state Israel)
  • then the day of the Lord cuts short this great tribulation, resulting in the destruction of the 6th king of Revelation 17, the Mystery Babylon that currently rules the world
  • then the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' appears indicating that the 'great tribulation' has ended
  • then Satan is released after a literal day, the 'day of the Lord', aka the symbolic '1000 years' (Revelation 20:7-10) (Apollyon & Abaddon and locusts)
  • (then the 2nd attack, the war on Christians, Revelation 12:13-17 & Revelation 13:1-8) 5 months later Gog surrounds the camp of the saints & the beloved city
  • Gog destroyed at the bowls of wrath
 

tranquil

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This looks interesting, marking to return to later, I've got a migraine. ;(

No problem.

Cliff notes version:

- the Sept 23, 2017 star sign is 3.5 days short of exactly 42 months from the 'sign of the son of man' that occurs on Feb 11, 2021

-the most logical date for the start of the 'great tribulation' would be the winter solstice
(12/21/2020) before the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' (2/ 11/ 2021)

-the most logical date for the 6th Seal war & Trumpets 1-4 would be around 2/ 6/ 2021.

-the most logical date for the 6th Trumpet would be 5 months after 2/ 6/ 2021 - meaning July 4, 2021 which is the middle of 70 '7's (245 years) from July 4, 1776's Declaration of Independence covenant.

- the 6th trumpet war is an imitation Gog war that results in Jerusalem being taken over by Gog who surrounds the camp of the saints (= the 'outer court is taken over by the Gentiles/ nations) & will be destroyed by the 7th Trumpet/ 7 bowls of wrath.

Also:
there are 2 attacks by Satan in relation to the day of the Lord & the sign of the son of man in heaven:
  • the 1st attack is on the woman before the day of the Lord, (seems to be nation-state Israel) - this is the start of the 'great tribulation'
  • then the day of the Lord cuts short this great tribulation, resulting in the destruction of the 6th king of Revelation 17, the Mystery Babylon that currently rules the world
  • then the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' appears indicating that the 'great tribulation' has ended
  • then Satan is released after a literal day, the 'day of the Lord', aka the symbolic '1000 years' (Revelation 20:7-10) (Apollyon & Abaddon and locusts)
  • (then the 2nd attack, the war on Christians, Revelation 12:13-17 & Revelation 13:1-8) 5 months later Gog surrounds the camp of the saints & the beloved city
  • Gog destroyed at the bowls of wrath
 
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tranquil

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Something just occurred to me: when we look at Daniel 9

In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments,

5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land. 7 To you, O Lord, belongs righteousness, but to us open shame, as at this day, to the men of Judah, to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, and to all Israel, those who are near and those who are far away, in all the lands to which you have driven them, because of the treachery that they have committed against you. 8 To us, O Lord, belongs open shame, to our kings, to our princes, and to our fathers, because we have sinned against you. 9 To the Lord our God belong mercy and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against him 10 and have not obeyed the voice of the Lord our God by walking in his laws, which he set before us by his servants the prophets. 11 All Israel has transgressed your law and turned aside, refusing to obey your voice. And the curse and oath that are written in the Law of Moses the servant of God have been poured out upon us, because we have sinned against him.

[...]

21 while I was speaking in prayer, the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the first, came to me in swift flight at the time of the evening sacrifice. 22 He made me understand, speaking with me and saying, “O Daniel, I have now come out to give you insight and understanding. 23 At the beginning of your pleas for mercy a word went out, and I have come to tell it to you, for you are greatly loved. Therefore consider the word and understand the vision.

24 “Seventy 'sevens' are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one 'seven', and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

In general, the 'seven' is translated as 'weeks' (the Hebrew word 'shabua'), but!.... In addition to 'shabua' meaning 'weeks' or 'seven', it also means... the number '7'.

In other words, the 'seventy 'seven's above also reads exactly as... '77'

Now watch what happens:
in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
[...]

77 is decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

[...]
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one 'seven', and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
So, Jerusalem has been desolate for 70 years.... and it needs 1 more '7' years period to reach... 77 years to finish the transgression.

In other words, what people call the 70th week (not really synonymous with the tribulation) is this last '7' of the 77 years. If this is talking about Israel, then its 70th anniversary is 5 Iyyar, 5778 (our April 20, 2018) or May 14, 2018 (70 solar years after May 14, 1948).

This does indeed tie in with my timeline in the OP.

lots more in a bit
 
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tranquil

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so, how does the 'middle of the 7' relate to the timeline above and the great tribulation?

Since 7 bible years from 5 Iyyar, 5778 to 5 Iyyar, 5785 (April 20, 2018 to May 3, 2025) is 2570 days

also, 7 solar years from (dusk May 13), day of May 14, 2018 to May 13, 2025 is 2557 days,

the exact middle of the former is 1285 days, and the exact middle of the latter is 1278.5 days. Neither of which is 42 months (roughly 1240 days) or 1260 days. So there is a window of time where this 'middle' can occur.

Because the messiah is expected to announce the Jubilee on Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement, 10 Tishri, this event could start the 1335 days of Daniel 12:11-13. Yom Kippur in 2021 is dusk Sept 15, 2021 / day of Sept 16, 2021.

If we start with April 20, 2018 (5 Iyyar, 5778) and go forward 42 months we get to 5 Tishri, 5782 (Sept 11, 2021). So, Yom Kippur 2021 does indeed fit in this window.

thus we would have:

  • the 5th/ 6th Seal abomination of desolation great tribulation on Dec 21, 2020 (it would appear that this is the breaking of the covenant in the middle of 77 years - Prince William was born June 21, 1982, ie 38.5 years
  • it would be cut short after 45 days on Feb 4, 2021
  • this would be the start of the Day of the Lord, which is also the start of the 1290 days (which we know cuts off the 'grain & wine sacrifices' (Joel 1:4-9) and also starts the 'locusts' of the 5th Trumpet.
  • the sign of the son of man on Feb 11, 2021 indicating that the great tribulation has been cut short
  • 5 solar months from Feb 4, 2021 is July 4, 2021, the middle of 70 '7s/ 245 years, & start of the 6th Trumpet war
  • this war results in the Jewish messiah confirming the Mosaic covenant/ announcing the Jubilee on Yom Kippur, Sept 16, 2021
  • 1335 days after Dec 21, 2020 is Aug 17, 2024, Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results the ending of the inner court of the temple being trampled (but not the end of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses
  • 1290 days after Feb 4, 2021 is Aug 17, 2024, Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results the ending of the inner court of the temple being trampled (but not the end of the 1260 days of the 2 witnesses) (1290 days breaks down to 147 days of locusts / 5 months of the 5th Trumpet + 1143 days of the inner temple being trampled by the outer court of nations/ Gentiles. 1143 days of bad sacrifices + 7 days to cleanse the temple = 1150 days/ 2300 evenings and mornings then the sanctuary is cleansed Daniel 8)
  • *note: the antichrist thinks to change times, which in some part seems to relate to the Gregorian calendar. the correct beginning of the 6th Trumpet/ end of the 5th Trumpet would be 5 lunar months from Feb 4, 2021 which would be July 2, 2021 (22 Sh'vat, 5781 to 22 Tammuz, 5781), not the solar calendar 5 months until July 4, 2021. 1260 days after July 2, 2021 is Dec 13, 2024 Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results the 2 witnesses are told to 'come up here'. this the start of the 7th Trumpet/ 7 bowls of wrath which is the year of recompense/ day of the Lord. Isaiah 34:8 This year goes from Dec 13, 2024 to dusk Dec 13, 2025
  • 490 days after Aug 17, 2024 is Dec 20, 2025 Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results thus the end of the 69th week is Dec 13, 2025 (dusk Dec 13, 2025 is the start of Hanukah). After the temple is destroyed on Aug 17, 2024 (the end of 1290 days from Feb 4, 2021) the repentant make the call to rebuild Jerusalem into the New Jerusalem. Read Daniel 9:24-27 straight through: after 7 weeks from Aug 17, 2024 is 3 Tishri, 5785 (Oct 5, 2024) Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results which is 7 years after the Rev 12:1 star sign/ 3 Tishri 5778 (Sept 23, 2017). At the end of 69 weeks, the 'anointed one' is 'cut off' / covenanted & anointed.
  • 1335 days after Yom Kippur Sept 16, 2021 is dusk May 13, 2025 which is the end of 7 solar years from May 14, 2018 Israel's 70th anniversary founding and the fulfillment of the '77' years to finish the transgression. Date Calculator: Add to or Subtract From a Date – Results
  • From May 13, 2025 to Dec 13, 2025 seems to be the 7 months of cleanup of bodies after the Gog war, which is Armageddon, the 6th bowl war occurring at around May 13, 2025.
 
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Douggg

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If that star sign above is indeed the 'sign of the son of man', then we know that it will be over before Feb 11, 2021. "Immediately after the tribulation of those days", then comes the 'sign of the son of man in heaven'. the 'sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken' is a reference to the 6th Seal & the first 4 Trumpets (the stars fall = the 'burning mountain'/ 2nd Trumpet & wormwood/ 3rd Trumpet; powers of heaven are shaken at the 4th Trumpet)
tranquil, you have the sequence given in the text mixed up. The key is the three level of heaven. Match the colors.

1. First the sun will be darkened, moon not give its light, stars fall from heaven, powers of heaven shaken.

2. Then, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.

So there will be no galaxies, star formations, around when the sign of the Son of Man appears.

There are three heavens, three levels:
1. Our atmosphere and solar system.
2. The universe, the cosmos (which has since the rebellion become the dominion of Satan, his angels)
3. The heaven where God's throne is and home of the righteous angels, the living beasts, and the souls of Christians.

It is the universe, the cosmos, the second heaven, that will be parted like a scroll - followed by them on earth, part of the solar system, the first heaven, seeing Jesus before the throne of God, in the third heaven. Jesus Himself in the third heaven is the sign.
 
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tranquil

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The sign of the Son of man happens just before He comes.

It won't occur until after the end of the great tribulation events are seen.

It is Jesus Christ sitting on the right hand of power.
Every eye shall see Him!
29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
the sign is an indicator that Jesus will be seen at some point in the near future, but is not necessarily when He shows up. He is still showing up as a thief even at Armageddon, the 6th bowl war. And the verse above is clearly referring to the 6th Seal.

Also, it is the messengers (the Greek word, angelos) that gather people, not Jesus himself.
 
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tranquil

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tranquil, you have the sequence given in the text mixed up. The key is the three level of heaven. Match the colors.

1. First the sun will be darkened, moon not give its light, stars fall from heaven, powers of heaven shaken.

2. Then, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.

So there will be no galaxies, star formations, around when the sign of the Son of Man appears.

There are three heavens, three levels:
1. Our atmosphere and solar system.
2. The universe, the cosmos (which has since the rebellion become the dominion of Satan, his angels)
3. The heaven where God's throne is and home of the righteous angels, the living beasts, and the souls of Christians.

It is the universe, the cosmos, the second heaven, that will be parted like a scroll - followed by them on earth, part of the solar system, the first heaven, seeing Jesus before the throne of God, in the third heaven. Jesus Himself in the third heaven is the sign.

There is no scripture backing any of this up.

this passage from Matt 24 is the 6th seal & Trumpets 1-4

29“Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30Then will appear in heaven the sign of the Son of Man, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31And he will send out his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.​

that 'gathering' is the sealing of the 144,000 & the 'great multitude' 'coming out of the great tribulation' in Revelation 7. The great tribulation that had just started at the winter solstice before this star sign.

After people are sealed, then they are protected from the events of the first four Trumpets. Even if we were to take the idea of 'stars falling out of the sky' literally (which I don't), it says that 'only 1/3 of the stars fall'.

7 The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

8 The second angel blew his trumpet, and something like a great mountain, burning with fire, was thrown into the sea, and a third of the sea became blood. 9 A third of the living creatures in the sea died, and a third of the ships were destroyed.

10 The third angel blew his trumpet, and a great star fell from heaven, blazing like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water. 11 The name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters became wormwood, and many people died from the water, because it had been made bitter.

12 The fourth angel blew his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, and a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of their light might be darkened, and a third of the day might be kept from shining, and likewise a third of the night.
Again, even if we took this literally (which I don't), there are still '2/3' of the stars still there.
 
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Douggg

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the sign is an indicator that Jesus will be seen at some point in the near future, but is not necessarily when He shows up. He is still showing up as a thief even at Armageddon, the 6th bowl war. And the verse above is clearly referring to the 6th Seal.
Not seen later, but right then. Jesus descends to earth later, yes. But for 45 days, from day 2475 when Jesus is revealed to the earth in heaven, to day 2520 on the seven year timeline, the armies of the world will gather, assemble, themselves at Armageddon.

When the heavens part, Jesus will be seen in heaven by them on earth as the world world rotates on it's axis. The tribes on the earth will mourn. Jesus in heaven is the sign of the Son of Man in heaven.

It will happen unexpectedly by the armies of the world which will have been drawn into the middle east aforehand to fight the beast, the battles in Daniel 11:40-44. At the height of their battles, they will be shocked, terrified, as the powers of heaven are shaken, at the sight of Jesus before the throne of God, and impending judgement. In reaction, the kings of the earth are convinced by the beast, the false prophet, and Satan - to unify and assemble their armies at Armageddon in preparation to try and make war on Jesus, and formulate a plan to keep Him from destroying them.

After they gather themselves and go down surround Jerusalem, to hold them there as hostage (part of their plan) Jesus descends, rescue them in Jerusalem, by creating the valley for escape, and destroys those armies. Destroyed, yes, but after Satan is exposed to everyone, on the temple mount as the idol image of the beast is melted away brought to ashes. And Satan will be exposed before all in heaven and earth.

Matthew 24:31 is after all those things take place, and is the gathering of the Jews scattered around the world.
 
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Revealing Times

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Note: I don't believe in a whisked away rapture. In my opinion, it is a lie of Satan to cause the apostasy. So, talking about the sign of the son of man is not to be taken as promoting a 'rapture date'. Nor it is to be taken as setting a date for Christ's return, which is not possible to determine and may only have a symbolic fulfillment.

IMO, here is the 'sign of the son of man in heaven', which will occur on Feb 11, 2021.
All of this is STAR GAZING and I told everyone it was of astrology and would not come true.

And yes, there will be a Rapture but no our bodies are not whisked away, we die, and our spirit man goes straight to heaven. That's the rapture.
 
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R. Hartono

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1. First the sun will be darkened, moon not give its light, stars fall from heaven, powers of heaven shaken.
2. Then, the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven.
The sun will still be shining when the rapture takes place
Mat 24:40 At that time two men will be working in a field: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.
people work in the field during daylight.
 
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tranquil

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All of this is STAR GAZING and I told everyone it was of astrology and would not come true.

And yes, there will be a Rapture but no our bodies are not whisked away, we die, and our spirit man goes straight to heaven. That's the rapture.

It is a sign in the heaven, placed there by God. Astrology tacks on arbitrary meanings to star gazing. These star signs are not something that Satan can fake.

What 'did not come true' on Sept 23, 2017? If you are talking about the whisked away rapture, then of course that did not come true - and it never will, because there is no such thing as a 'whisked away rapture' - which is why I have to preface things in this manner.

If we die, we go to the Lord. If we survive, we will be physically gathered by the messengers/ 'angels'. "All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved".
 
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tranquil

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Here is some interesting news. Prince William will be visiting Israel 'sometime this summer' in 2018. What Prince William's visit means for Israeli-British relations No specific date has been announced as of yet...

Going back to the timeline above, I mentioned that Prince William will be exactly 38.5 years old on Dec 21, 2020 which would mean that he would be at the 'middle of 77' years (77 /2 = 38.5) and seems to correlate to the 'winter, Sabath day' that occurs before the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' on Feb 11, 2018.

Again, the '70 weeks' of Daniel 9, reads exactly the same in Hebrew as '77'. (no one thinks this is interesting?!) One can literally read this in Daniel 9, and see this, the exact counterpart playing out in the news with Trump's visit on the 70th anniversary.

Dan 9
in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
[...]

77 is decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

[...]
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one 'seven', and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
So, Jerusalem has been desolate for 70 years.... and it needs 1 more '7' years period to reach... 77 years to finish the transgression.
In other words, what people call the 70th week (not really synonymous with the tribulation) is this last '7' of the 77 years. If this is talking about Israel, then its 70th anniversary is 5 Iyyar, 5778 (our April 20, 2018) or May 14, 2018 (70 solar years after May 14, 1948) to dusk May 13, 2025 (77 solar years after May 14, 1948).

But what if we look at it from the perspective of an Israeli, we could see them legitimately interpreting Daniel 9:24-27 as 70 'weeks', literally 490 days.

To them, what would the starting point of the 70 weeks/ 490 days be? Either April 20, 2018 or May 14, 2018 - the 70 years of desolations of Jerusalem in Daniel 9:2.

Now just read Dan 9:24-27 normally:

24 “Seventy weeks [490 days] are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem

[the whole point of Trump's visit is about Jerusalem]

to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

[if the beginning of the 70 weeks starts on May 14, 2018, then we can make a pretty good guess as to what exact date Prince William will go to Israel - July 2, 2018. News reports just say, 'in the summer'. He is the 'prince' that is arriving!]

Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

[if the beginning is May 14, 2018, then someone important will be killed after '62 weeks', July 22, 2019]

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

['the city' seems to be 'Jerusalem' and would refer to Dec 21, 2020, the 'winter attack on Judea' that 'people are to flee from' in Matthew 24:15-31 and is the start of the woman going into the wilderness

the attack on the 'sanctuary' is a reference to the 'inner court' that is surrounded by the outer court of nations/ Gentiles in the 2nd woe/ 2 witnesses 1260 days/ Revelation 11.]

Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

When does this 7 year covenant (or 7 day covenant) begin? It isn't clear.

At the end of 70 weeks from May 14, 2018, there should be some sort of temple anointing, Sept 16, 2019.

 
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Revealing Times

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It is a sign in the heaven, placed there by God. Astrology tacks on arbitrary meanings to star gazing. These star signs are not something that Satan can fake.

What 'did not come true' on Sept 23, 2017? If you are talking about the whisked away rapture, then of course that did not come true - and it never will, because there is no such thing as a 'whisked away rapture' - which is why I have to preface things in this manner.

If we die, we go to the Lord. If we survive, we will be physically gathered by the messengers/ 'angels'. "All who call on the name of the Lord shall be saved".
Reading the stars are NOT OF God, it is Astrology. The Sign is in Genesis 37:9, it tells us what the CODE IS, then we can understand the Prophecy.

Was this a SIGN IN HEAVEN ALSO?

And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is filled up the wrath of God.

Where is the STARS ALIGNED for this sign? It simply means John saw Visions.
 
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Douggg

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The sun will still be shining when the rapture takes place
Mat 24:40 At that time two men will be working in a field: one will be taken away, the other will be left behind.
people work in the field during daylight.
Well, the sun will not be shining in some parts of the world when the rapture takes place - it may be daylight in Indonesia, nigthtime in the U.S., for example.
 
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R. Hartono

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Well, the sun will not be shining in some parts of the world when the rapture takes place - it may be daylight in Indonesia, nigthtime in the U.S., for example.
At least we know the sun is not yet darkened when the separation of the two happens, as two shall be working in the field during daylight.
This shows it will be their last working days in the field.
 
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tranquil

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Here is some interesting news. Prince William will be visiting Israel 'sometime this summer' in 2018. What Prince William's visit means for Israeli-British relations No specific date has been announced as of yet...

Going back to the timeline above, I mentioned that Prince William will be exactly 38.5 years old on Dec 21, 2020 which would mean that he would be at the 'middle of 77' years (77 /2 = 38.5) and seems to correlate to the 'winter, Sabath day' that occurs before the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' on Feb 11, 2018.

Again, the '70 weeks' of Daniel 9, reads exactly the same in Hebrew as '77'. (no one thinks this is interesting?!) One can literally read this in Daniel 9, and see this, the exact counterpart playing out in the news with Trump's visit on the 70th anniversary.

Dan 9
in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.
[...]

77 is decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place.

[...]
And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one 'seven', and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
So, Jerusalem has been desolate for 70 years.... and it needs 1 more '7' years period to reach... 77 years to finish the transgression.
In other words, what people call the 70th week (not really synonymous with the tribulation) is this last '7' of the 77 years. If this is talking about Israel, then its 70th anniversary is 5 Iyyar, 5778 (our April 20, 2018) or May 14, 2018 (70 solar years after May 14, 1948) to dusk May 13, 2025 (77 solar years after May 14, 1948).

But what if we look at it from the perspective of an Israeli, we could see them legitimately interpreting Daniel 9:24-27 as 70 'weeks', literally 490 days.

To them, what would the starting point of the 70 weeks/ 490 days be? Either April 20, 2018 or May 14, 2018 - the 70 years of desolations of Jerusalem in Daniel 9:2.

Now just read Dan 9:24-27 normally:

24 “Seventy weeks [490 days] are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place. 25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem

[the whole point of Trump's visit is about Jerusalem]
to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.

[if the beginning of the 70 weeks starts on May 14, 2018, then we can make a pretty good guess as to what exact date Prince William will go to Israel - July 2, 2018. News reports just say, 'in the summer'. He is the 'prince' that is arriving!]
Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.

[if the beginning is May 14, 2018, then someone important will be killed after '62 weeks', July 22, 2019]
And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary.

['the city' seems to be 'Jerusalem' and would refer to Dec 21, 2020, the 'winter attack on Judea' that 'people are to flee from' in Matthew 24:15-31 and is the start of the woman going into the wilderness

the attack on the 'sanctuary' is a reference to the 'inner court' that is surrounded by the outer court of nations/ Gentiles in the 2nd woe/ 2 witnesses 1260 days/ Revelation 11.]
Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed. 27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”

When does this 7 year covenant (or 7 day covenant) begin? It isn't clear.

At the end of 70 weeks from May 14, 2018, there should be some sort of temple anointing, Sept 16, 2019.


I'd like to amend my post above which said that the most likely date for Prince William's arrival was July 2, 2018. This was predicated upon starting the 7 weeks until a 'prince'/ ruler from the 70th solar year date, but I realize now that the 70th Hebrew/ Bible calendar year fits much better. (5 Iyyar, 5778 // April 20, 2018)

Basically, if Prince William arrives in Israel on June 8, 2018 (which his visit has an unannounced date as of right now) (add 7 weeks to April 20, 2018 to get to June 8, 2018), this will be a strong indicator that the following interpretation of Daniel 9 is correct, and a strong indicator that the great tribulation will begin on Dec 21, 2020, not the 'middle of the 7 years' that go from May 2018 to May 2025 (which would be Nov 2021).

the reason why it would be a strong indicator of the great tribulation beginning on Dec 21, 2020 is because of a very literal reading of Daniel 9 itself.

Daniel 9's prayer says that it starts at the end of 70 years of desolations of Jerusalem.

In the first year of Darius the son of Ahasuerus, by descent a Mede, who was made king over the realm of the Chaldeans— 2 in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the Lord to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.

3 Then I turned my face to the Lord God, seeking him by prayer and pleas for mercy with fasting and sackcloth and ashes. 4 I prayed to the Lord my God and made confession, saying, “O Lord, the great and awesome God, who keeps covenant and steadfast love with those who love him and keep his commandments, 5 we have sinned and done wrong and acted wickedly and rebelled, turning aside from your commandments and rules. 6 We have not listened to your servants the prophets, who spoke in your name to our kings, our princes, and our fathers, and to all the people of the land.​

The modern state of Israel was started on May 14, 1948 / 5 Iyyar, 5708. 70 years later is 5 Iyyar, 5778 (our April 20, 2018).

24 “Seventy 'weeks' (*** also '77' **) are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy place
[Here, the 77 meaning finishes out the transgressions, ending at the 77th anniversary of Jerusalem, Israel on May 13, 2025 (77 solar years).
The 2nd meaning is also '70 weeks'/ literally 490 days.]

25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks.
[Start at the 70th anniversary, April 20, 2018 and add 7 weeks: June 8, 2018. This is the most probable (unannounced) date for Prince William's upcoming visit to Israel.]

Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.
[Add 62 weeks to June 8, 2018: August 16, 2019]

26 And after sixty-two weeks (***translations generally put a 'the' before the '62 weeks', but in the original Hebrew there is no preposition 'the' there), an anointed one shall be cut off and shall have nothing.
[Add another 62 weeks here, for the date of someone being 'cut off' (has the meaning of being 'covenanted' or 'killed'.] this takes us to October 23, 2020. this could be the very date that the 'antichrist' receives his mortal head wound.]

And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.
[These events take us to the end of 70 weeks where a desolation is decreed. To finish out the 8 more weeks past Oct 23, 2020 takes us to the end of 70 weeks on Dec 18, 2020. All in all, we have gone 69 weeks, then another 70 weeks.]

27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and in the middle of the 'seven' he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering.
[At the end of the 70 weeks ending on Dec 18, 2020, the prince/ ruler to come makes a covenant and breaks it in the middle of 1 week, literally the middle of 7 days. Again, he places the abomination of desolation 3.5 days after Dec 18, 2020 which would be dusk Dec 21, 2020, which is when Prince William will turn 38.5 years old (the 'middle of 77 years' = 38.5). Dec 21, 2020 is the start of the 1335 days of Daniel 12:13. ]

And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”
So, whereas most people assume that the 42 months of the beast from the sea = the abomination of desolation showing up in 'middle of 7 years', it is more likely that the 'middle of the 'week' means a literal week that started on Dec 18, 2020:

  • starting at the 70th anniversary of Jerusalem, Israel (April 20, 2018)
  • + 7 weeks (June 8, 2018) arrival of an anointed one, a 'prince' (seems to be Prince William)
  • + 62 weeks (Aug 16, 2019)
  • + 62 weeks (Oct 23, 2020) (an anointed one is cut off, possibly the date of the mortal head wound of the worthless shepherd)
  • + 8 weeks (triggers wars until the end of 70 weeks) (Dec 18, 2020)
  • + 1 week, this last 1 week being broken in the middle thereof that starts the 1335 days of the abomination of desolation, finished by 70 weeks/ 490 days. Dec 21, 2020 is this start of the abomination of desolation. (Prince William turns 38.5 years old, the 'middle of 77 years'
  • 45 + 1290 days take us to Aug 17, 2024
  • Aug 17, 2024 add 70 weeks to finish the transgression to get to Dec 13, 2025 (69th week) / Dec 20, 2025 (70th week)
  • 77 solar years from May 14, 1948 to May 13, 2025
  • May 13, 2025 to Dec 13, 2025 is the 7 months of clean-up of Gog corpses (Ezekiel 39:12)
  • from Dec 21, 2020 add 45 days to get to the beginning of the Trumpets (Trumpets 1-4) and the start of the 5 months of the 5th Trumpet (Feb 4, 2021)
  • immediately after the 'tribulation of those days' is the 'sign of the son of man in heaven' on Feb 11, 2021
  • 5 months after Feb 4, 2021 we get to either July 2, 2021 (5 Bible months) or July 4, 2021 (5 Gregorian calendar months). July 4, 2021 breaks the Declaration of Independence covenant in the middle of 70 '7's / middle of 490 years / 245 years after July 4, 1776.
  • + 1260 days to July 2, 2021 to get to Dec 13, 2024 (time of the 2 witnesses/ 2nd woe). Dec 13, 2024 to Dec 13, 2025 is the 'year of recompense' where the bowls of wrath are poured out and the battle of Armageddon/ Gog (6th bowl war) ends at May 13, 2025
  • May 13, 2025 to Dec 13, 2025 is the 7 months of clean-up of Gog corpses (Ezekiel 39:12)
  • dusk Dec 13, 2025 is the start of Hanukah
 
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tranquil

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if we look at Daniel 9:24-27 again, let's look at how there are multiple meanings of various words and see how they play out

24 “Seventy weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal both vision and prophet, and to anoint a most holy.

25 Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.

26 And after sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be [yikkaret] and shall have nothing. And the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war. Desolations are decreed.

27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week/ in the middle of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”​

from Daniel 9:2, we know that the starting point is the 70th anniversary of Jerusalem, Israel.

the '70 '7's of verse 24 has multiple meanings: 70, 7 years (ie 77 years), 70 weeks (ie 490 days), & 70 sets of 7 years (ie 490 years)

we know it takes 69 weeks to 'anoint a most holy': 7 weeks until a 'prince'/ 'ruler' then 62 weeks ('after 62 weeks' the anointed one will be covenanted' (the word 'yikkaret' means both 'to cut off' & also 'to cut a covenant)'.

verse 26 has a double meaning in that it is referring to the prior 62 weeks and also another 62 weeks.

we also know it takes 70 weeks to 'finish the transgression'. the implication to me here, is that after 69 weeks, someone is anointed the most holy, then it takes 70 weeks to 'finish the transgression'. the person that is 'anointed' would be the person being referred to in John 5:43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.

this person would be the 7th king in the line of 8. He is the one that is only around for a little while.

Rev 17:10 they are also seven kings, five of whom have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come, and when he does come he must remain only a little while.

so, starting at the 70th anniversary

we add 7 weeks until a prince, then add 62 weeks to someone being anointed, (69 weeks so far - Aug 16, 2019 looks to be the day when the 7th head is anointed)

62 weeks after being anointed, then the 7th head gets a mortal head wound - is 'cut off', the 2nd meaning of 'yikkaret' (Oct 23, 2020)

then it takes 70 weeks to 'finish this transgression' (Dec 18, 2020 seems to be when the 7th head is killed)

It says 'to the end, there shall be war', so we have an implied ending to the 70 weeks.

The people of the prince to come destroy the city and the sanctuary, starting Oct 23, 2020

27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week, and for half of the week/ in the middle of the week he shall put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”​

so the 8th head makes a covenant and then he and the false prophet ('one who makes desolate') break the covenant with the abomination statue in the middle of this 'week' that occurs after the 69 weeks, then 70 weeks. (Dec 21, 2020)
 
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