7th Trumpet Rapture?

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Ronald

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My Holy bible KJV states "Hell", the old and new testaments, you believe this english translation that has been the standard for 400 years is wrong?

The world's use of the word "Hell" has been wrong for centuries?

If the King James Version isn't correct what should I do to find God's true words?

Luke 16:22-24
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
Hades (Sheol), is not Hell. Hell is the Lake of Fire. There is a difference. If there wasn't , how is Hades and Death cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed (Rev. 20:14)? The Abyss or Bottleless Pit, where demons are held captive, is in a different location of Hades, than where unbelievers go when they die ( where the Rich man was in Luke 16:19-31). The Lake of Fire can be likened to Gehenna, an old perpetual burning dump outside of Jerusalem used for dead bodies. Cannaanites sacrificed children in that area in their day as well. Gehenna is Greek for The Valley of Hinnom.The smoldering ashes continued for generations. The worm did not die there because on the outer edges, they could survive eating the roten flesh. So the Jews likened Hell to Gehenna. Jesus cursed the Pharisees and said., "Serpents, brood of vipers, Howe may he escape from the judgment if the Gehenna?" Matt. 23:33 YLT
Souls in Hades are waiting for their judgment (part of which they've received), but to be resurrected and thrown into the Lake if Fire.
 
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ewq1938

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Wrath is tribulation, how could it not be considered great tribulation?

The GT is wrath from satan, not God. That time will end and God's wrath will begin which is not the same period as the great trib.

The whole 3 1/2 year period is the GT. The wrath portion may only last 40 days or so, but it is part of it.

God's wrath is not part of the 3.5 years so it is not part of it.

God will appoint us to wrath, its scriptural.

Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.

So he takes us out prior to the Bowls of Wrath at the 7th Trumpet.

Correct.
 
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Truth7t7

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Hades (Sheol), is not Hell. Hell is the Lake of Fire. There is a difference. If there wasn't , how is Hades and Death cast into the Lake of Fire and destroyed (Rev. 20:14)? The Abyss or Bottleless Pit, where demons are held captive, is in a different location of Hades, than where unbelievers go when they die ( where the Rich man was in Luke 16:19-31). The Lake of Fire can be likened to Gehenna, an old perpetual burning dump outside of Jerusalem used for dead bodies. Cannaanites sacrificed children in that area in their day as well. Gehenna is Greek for The Valley of Hinnom.The smoldering ashes continued for generations. The worm did not die there because on the outer edges, they could survive eating the roten flesh. So the Jews likened Hell to Gehenna. Jesus cursed the Pharisees and said., "Serpents, brood of vipers, Howe may he escape from the judgment if the Gehenna?" Matt. 23:33 YLT
Souls in Hades are waiting for their judgment (part of which they've received), but to be resurrected and thrown into the Lake if Fire.
If "Hell" and the "Lake Of Fire" are the same place as you claim?

How can "Hell" be cast into itself "Lake Of Fire" as seen in verse 14 below?

Revelation 20:13-15
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
 
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jerry kelso

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Jerry,

Your posts tend to begin with a derogatory statement and then contradict themselves.

Please spend a little more time thinking about what you are claiming.


"he demands man’s cooperation"

"God is not going to make you do anything you don’t want to."

Both statements above cannot be correct.

.

baberean2,

1. I see you have no scriptures to rebut what I said.

2. God desires cooperation and he demands obedience. If you are continually disobedience you are not doing God’s will.

3. The Bible says, without faith it is impossible to please God.
God is not going to make you put your faith into action.
So I said nothing contradictory.
You never even said why you thought that. Why are you so confused? Jerry Kelso
 
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Ronald

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The GT is wrath from satan, not God. That time will end and God's wrath will begin which is not the same period as the great trib.
Satan does persecute throughout the GT, but God's Wrath certainly comes towards the end which we are not appointed to. There are several references other than the 42 months = 1260 days, which are 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel 12:11, 12. So there is little over 3 1/2 years to complete the job.

God's wrath is not part of the 3.5 years so it is not part of it.
Well, technically, 3.5 years equals 1277.5 days. 42 months on a Jewish calendar = 1260. So if the seventh trumpet sounds on day 1260, there is still additional time, up to 10 weeks or so when God's wrath would begin. I'm not sure. Honestly, some things just don't figure into my view but I'm OK with it. I also expected the GT to start by 2018 since, 1948 +70 = 2018. I guess if it starts, the two witnesses would show up in Jerusalem. Last I heard a fifteen year old kid was amazing Rabbis with his vision of heaven and prophecies of coming judgment. ???

Christians are not appointed to God's wrath.
I know, we are continuously reminded by the Pre-Tribbers of that.
 
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ewq1938

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Well, technically, 3.5 years equals 1277.5 days. 42 months on a Jewish calendar = 1260.

I only use 3.5 years as convenience . Rev has a 42 month period for the beast which works out to 3.5 years using 30 day months.
 
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Truth7t7

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Satan does persecute throughout the GT, but God's Wrath certainly comes towards the end which we are not appointed to. There are several references other than the 42 months = 1260 days, which are 1290 days and 1335 days in Daniel 12:11, 12. So there is little over 3 1/2 years to complete the job.


Well, technically, 3.5 years equals 1277.5 days. 42 months on a Jewish calendar = 1260. So if the seventh trumpet sounds on day 1260, there is still additional time, up to 10 weeks or so when God's wrath would begin. I'm not sure. Honestly, some things just don't figure into my view but I'm OK with it. I also expected the GT to start by 2018 since, 1948 +70 = 2018. I guess if it starts, the two witnesses would show up in Jerusalem. Last I heard a fifteen year old kid was amazing Rabbis with his vision of heaven and prophecies of coming judgment. ???


I know, we are continuously reminded by the Pre-Tribbers of that.
Whose calling the shots in Revelation 9:1-6 below.

Who's got the key to the pit?

Who's commanding the evil released with specific instruction to hurt only those "Without God's Seal"?

Revelation 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
 
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Ronald

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Whose calling the shots in Revelation 9:1-6 below.

Who's got the key to the pit?

Who's commanding the evil released with specific instruction to hurt only those "Without God's Seal"?

Revelation 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.
2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and there arose a smoke out of the pit, as the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by reason of the smoke of the pit.
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
God. I just agreed with the other poster that Satan persecutes Christians and Jews for while he is reigning. I also agreed that the Bowls of Wrath would most likely come towards the end of that reign.
 
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Truth7t7

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As I said Hades is not Hell, and verse 14 should read "death and Hades were cast into the Lake of Fire."

You need to examine the Greek translations. There are mistranslations in the KJV whether you like it or not. There are mistranslations in all versions that we need to examine.


ASV
And death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, even the lake of fire.
AMP
Then death and Hades [the realm of the dead] were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire [the eternal separation from God].
AMPC
Then death and Hades (the state of death or disembodied existence) were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

CSB
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.

CJB
Then Death and Sh’ol were hurled into the lake of fire. This is the second death — the lake of fire.

DARBY
and death and hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, [even] the lake of fire.
DLNT
And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death— the lake of fire.
ERV
And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.
ESV
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
ESVUK
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
EXB
And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
GNT
Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the lake of fire. (This lake of fire is the second death.)
HCSB
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
ICB
And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This lake of fire is the second death.
ISV
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. (This is the second death—the lake of fire.)
JUB
And Hades and death were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
KJV
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
LEB
And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
MEV
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
MOUNCE
Then · death and · Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, · the lake of fire.
NABRE
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.)
NASB
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
NCV
And Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
NET
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.

NIV
Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
NKJV
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
NRSV
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
NRSVA
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
NRSVACE
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
NRSVCE
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
NTE
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
OJB
And Mavet and She’ol were cast into the Agam HaEish (Lake of Fire). This is the Mavet HaSheyni (the Second Death), the Agam HaEish (the Lake of Fire).
TPT
Then death and the realm of the dead were cast into the lake of fire, for the lake of fire is the second death.
RSV
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
RSVCE
Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire;
TLV
Then death and Sheol were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death—the lake of fire.
VOICE
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
WEB
Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
WE
Then death and the world of the dead were thrown into the big fire. This fire is the second death.
YLT
and the death and the hades were cast to the lake of the fire -- this [is] the second death;

I think I'll go with Hades on that translation. Even the NKJV says Hades. I only use about nine of these versions including the KJV, but when I'm stuck on something, I check the Greek, but since I don't have a PhD in Koine Greek, I leave it up to hundreds of scholars (probably up to 70 per version translated)who have done the work for us. Oh and btw, my Avatar is the cover of my book, "Hell ... If I Know" based on 570 scriptures and eight Bible versions. This doesn't make me right, it just means I've spent some time on the subject.
So the 58 scholars on the KJV translating committee were wrong, and that English bible for the past 400 years is in error?

Those wicked that die Don't go to "Hell" they go to "Hades"?

Perhaps the answer is "Greek Mythology" and your "Hades"

Wikipedia:Hades
In Greek mythology, Hades was regarded as the oldest son of Cronus and Rhea, although the last son regurgitated by his father.[2] He and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated their father's generation of gods, the Titans, and claimed rulership over the cosmos. Hades received the underworld, Zeus the sky, and Poseidon the sea, with the solid earth—long the province of Gaia—available to all three concurrently. Hades was often portrayed with his three-headed guard dogCerberus.
 
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ewq1938

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There are three Greek words translated "hell"; Geenna, Hades, and Tartaroo.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


1067

1067 geenna {gheh'-en-nah}
of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011; TDNT - 1:657,113; n f
AV - hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or
"Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom,
south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the
city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and
their future destruction.


This word is the type of hell that is the final punishment, known as the lake of fire in Revelation.




Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


86

86 hades {hah'-dace}
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.


This is not the same hell, but is where the dead are who lived bad lives. Its known as purgatory, death and the grave.

This hell is what is cast into and destroyed by the other "Hell" ie: the lake of fire:


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5020

5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v

AV - cast down to hell 1; 1

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus


This is the third word and is a holding place for very evil souls. It is also known as the pit in Revelation where satan is held for 1000 years. It is a special place within Hades.
 
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Truth7t7

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There are three Greek words translated "hell"; Geenna, Hades, and Tartaroo.

Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.


1067

1067 geenna {gheh'-en-nah}
of Hebrew origin 01516 and 02011; TDNT - 1:657,113; n f
AV - hell 9, hell fire + 3588 + 4442 3; 12
1) Hell is the place of the future punishment call "Gehenna" or
"Gehenna of fire". This was originally the valley of Hinnom,
south of Jerusalem, where the filth and dead animals of the
city were cast out and burned; a fit symbol of the wicked and
their future destruction.


This word is the type of hell that is the final punishment, known as the lake of fire in Revelation.




Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.


86

86 hades {hah'-dace}
from 1 (as negative particle) and 1492; TDNT - 1:146,22; n pr loc
AV - hell 10, grave 1; 11
1) name Hades or Pluto, the god of the lower regions
2) Orcus, the nether world, the realm of the dead
3) later use of this word: the grave, death, hell
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions,
a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common
receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of
the wicked, Lu. 16:23, Rev. 20:13,14; a very uncomfortable place. TDNT.


This is not the same hell, but is where the dead are who lived bad lives. Its known as purgatory, death and the grave.

This hell is what is cast into and destroyed by the other "Hell" ie: the lake of fire:


Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.



2 Peter 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

5020

5020 tartaroo {tar-tar-o'-o}

from Tartaros (the deepest abyss of Hades);; v

AV - cast down to hell 1; 1

1) the name of the subterranean region, doleful and dark, regarded by
the ancient Greeks as the abode of the wicked dead, where they suffer
punishment for their evil deeds; it answers to Gehenna of the Jews
2) to thrust down to Tartarus, to hold captive in Tartarus


This is the third word and is a holding place for very evil souls. It is also known as the pit in Revelation where satan is held for 1000 years. It is a special place within Hades.
Hades is found rooted in "Greek Mythology"

Wikipedia:Hades
In Greek mythology, Hades was regarded as the oldest son of Cronus and Rhea, although the last son regurgitated by his father.[2] He and his brothers Zeus and Poseidon defeated their father's generation of gods, the Titans, and claimed rulership over the cosmos. Hades received the underworld, Zeus the sky, and Poseidon the sea, with the solid earth—long the province of Gaia—available to all three concurrently. Hades was often portrayed withhis three-headed guard dogCerberus.
 
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ewq1938

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Hades is found rooted in "Greek Mythology"

And Jesus spoke about it saying the gates of hell/hades shall not prevail against the church so it is not mythology. I'm sure Jesus' concept of Hades differs from the Greek's version.
 
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Truth7t7

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And Jesus spoke about it saying the gates of hell/hades shall not prevail against the church so it is not mythology. I'm sure Jesus' concept of Hades differs from the Greek's version.
No it's your bible translators that have followed the "Greek Mythology" in "Hades"

Your translation also uses "Demon" instead of the KJV "Devils"

"Demon" more pagan mythology

Wikipedia: Demon

The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daimōndenotes a spirit or divine power, much like theLatin genius or numen. Daimōn most likely came from the Greek verb daiesthai (to divide, distribute).[3] The Greek conception of adaimōn notably appears in the works of Plato, where it describes the divine inspiration ofSocrates. To distinguish the classical Greek concept from its later Christian interpretation, the former is anglicized as either daemon ordaimon rather than demon.[citation needed] The original Greek word daimon does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine δαιμόνιον(daimonion),[4] and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root.

The Greek terms do not have any connotations of evil or malevolence. In fact,εὐδαιμονία eudaimonia, (literally good-spiritedness) means happiness. By the earlyRoman Empire, cult statues were seen, bypagans and their Christian neighbors alike, as inhabited by the numinous presence of the gods: "Like pagans, Christians still sensed and saw the gods and their power, and as something, they had to assume, lay behind it, by an easy traditional shift of opinion they turned these pagan daimones into malevolent 'demons', the troupe of Satan..... Far into theByzantine period Christians eyed their cities' old pagan statuary as a seat of the demons' presence. It was no longer beautiful, it was infested."[5] The term had first acquired its negative connotations in the Septuaginttranslation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, which drew on the mythology of ancient Semitic religions. This was then inherited by the Koine text of the New Testament. The Western medieval and neo-medieval conception of a demon[6] derives seamlessly from the ambient popular culture of Late Antiquity. The Hellenistic "daemon" eventually came to include many Semitic and Near Eastern gods as evaluated by Christianity.
 
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No it's your bible translators that have followed the "Greek Mythology" in "Hades"


What do you mean by "your" bible translators?

The translators have nothing to do with the word Christ used. They choose "hell" as a translation but Christ was the one who spoke of hades.
 
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Truth7t7

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What do you mean by "your" bible translators?

The translators have nothing to do with the word Christ used. They choose "hell" as a translation but Christ was the one who spoke of hades.
No such English word as "Hades", the translation from Greek to English is "Hell"
 
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No such English word as "Hades", the translation from Greek to English is "Hell"

The Greek word used is Hades. So, why did Christ use a word you claim is merely Greek mythology? Was Christ wrong to use it?
 
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Truth7t7

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The Greek word used is Hades. So, why did Christ use a word you claim is merely Greek mythology? Was Christ wrong to use it?
Your translation also uses "Demon" instead of the KJV "Devils"

"Demon" more pagan mythology

Wikipedia: Demon

The Ancient Greek word δαίμων daimōndenotes a spirit or divine power, much like theLatingenius or numen. Daimōn most likely came from the Greek verb daiesthai (to divide, distribute).[3] The Greek conception of adaimōn notably appears in the works of Plato, where it describes the divine inspiration ofSocrates. To distinguish the classical Greek concept from its later Christian interpretation, the former is anglicized as either daemon ordaimon rather than demon.[citation needed] The original Greek word daimon does not carry the negative connotation initially understood by implementation of the Koine δαιμόνιον(daimonion),[4] and later ascribed to any cognate words sharing the root.

The Greek terms do not have any connotations of evil or malevolence. In fact,εὐδαιμονίαeudaimonia, (literally good-spiritedness) means happiness. By the earlyRoman Empire, cult statues were seen, bypagans and their Christian neighbors alike, as inhabited by the numinous presence of the gods: "Like pagans, Christians still sensed and saw the gods and their power, and as something, they had to assume, lay behind it, by an easy traditional shift of opinion they turned these pagan daimones into malevolent 'demons', the troupe of Satan..... Far into theByzantine period Christians eyed their cities' old pagan statuary as a seat of the demons' presence. It was no longer beautiful, it was infested."[5] The term had first acquired its negative connotations in the Septuaginttranslation of the Hebrew Bible into Greek, which drew on the mythology of ancient Semitic religions. This was then inherited by the Koine text of the New Testament. The Western medieval and neo-medieval conception of ademon[6] derives seamlessly from the ambient popular culture of Late Antiquity. The Hellenistic "daemon" eventually came to include many Semitic and Near Eastern gods as evaluated by Christianity
 
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ewq1938

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Your translation also uses "Demon" instead of the KJV "Devils"

Firstly, you avoided my questions which is rude. Second, I have no idea what you are talking about with claiming my translation differs from the KJV when my post only contained verses from the KJV and none of the verses have the words devil or demon.
 
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Truth7t7

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Firstly, you avoided my questions which is rude. Second, I have no idea what you are talking about with claiming my translation differs from the KJV when my post only contained verses from the KJV and none of the verses have the words devil or demon.
The words "Hades" nor "Demon" are found in the KJV?

So what version are you using?

My "English" KJV states "Hell" & "Devils"
Jesus didn't speak Greek to my knowledge of the scripture.

Where do you support your claim in post # 237 that Jesus verbally used the word "Hades"?
 
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