7th Trumpet Rapture?

[Everett J Schulte]

I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!

 

[ewq1938]

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Context is the second coming!

1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

This is the second coming!


1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.


This is the rapture! The Greek word for rapture is harpazo and that's the term used by Paul!

So, the proper order of events according to scripture:

1. the second coming begins/Christ leaves heaven. (1Th 4:16) (this doesn't happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat_24:29)
2. the resurrection. (dead saints resurrect bodily in heaven and follow Christ as he returns to the Earth-second coming) (1Th 4:14-16)
3. the rapture. (living saints on Earth are gathered together from where ever they are on the Earth in order to meet Christ in the clouds when he arrives)(1Th 4:17)

 

[Everett J Schulte]

Interesting take! And logical!

However, 1 Thess. 4:16-17 does not mention Jesus setting foot upon the earth (which normally I think of as the second coming),

but yes, I see this scripture as pointing directly to our rapture!

 

[Davy]

I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!

In Matthew 24 and Mark 13, Jesus was giving 7 main signs of the end of this world. They parallel the signs He gave in the seals of Rev.6. So that's a good Bible study together. The very last sign He gave was that of His coming and gathering of the saints. The events of 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 are covered in both the Matt.24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures. One example shows the gathering of the saints from heaven (the asleep saints Jesus brings with Him), and the other example shows the gathering of the alive saints on earth.

In 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul made it clear that Christ's coming and gathering of the Church will not happen until first there is a great apostasy (falling away), and the man of sin is revealed. This means the tribulation Jesus warned of in Matt.24 must occur first, so Paul was in perfect alignment with Jesus' coming and gathering of the Church as the last event of this present world.

In 1 Thess.5, Apostle Paul, pulling from the OT prophets, taught that the "day of the Lord" will come "as a thief in the night". To make sure those studied knew what timing he was speaking of, he showed when the deceived start to say, "Peace and safety", that is when the "sudden destruction" will come upon them, signaling the day of Christ's coming to do battle on the "day of the Lord".

In 2 Peter 3:10, Apostle Peter showed that God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth on the "day of the Lord" which comes "as a thief in the night". That event is part of the day of Christ's coming back to this earth to end this present world and begin His future "thousand years" reign on earth with His elect priests and kings.

In Revelation 16:15, on the 6th Vial timing, Jesus is still warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief", and for them to keep their garments lest they appear naked and in shame (spiritually in regards to false worship to the Antichrist). The next event shown there is His gathering the kings of this world to battle at Armageddon on the 7th Vial (day of the Lord timing). That is showing that all the way to the 6th Vial, He still had not yet come to gather His Church, not until the 7th Vial which is poured out into the 'air' and not on earth.

 

[BABerean2]

I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!

We find the 7th trumpet is when the kingdoms of this world become the kingdoms of God and Christ "forever". How long is "forever".

In verse 18 we find "the time of the judgment of the dead". See John 5:27-30.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.


The Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.
Instead, it is a series of overlapping visions.

.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[SeventyOne]

I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!

Paul stated he was revealing a mystery, then told his readers the rapture will be at the last trump. How could his trumpet reference ever make any sense, or reveal any mystery, if it pertained to a trumpet blast that wouldn't be known about for several decades in the future. Neither Paul or the Thessalonians knew anything about the revelation to John.

Rather, 'the last trump' would have been known as the 100th blast during the Feast of Trumpets. Paul was speaking to them in common festival language they would have understood. I think it's only our current ignorance of the Lords appointed times that makes some try to tie it into a Revelation trumpet they had no knowledge of.

 

[vinsight4u]

/nvm

 

[BABerean2]

Paul stated he was revealing a mystery

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the Old Covenant festivals and trumpets are finished.
They were but a shadow of Christ, based on the words of the Apostle Paul found below.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

.

 

[DavidPT]

I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!

Here is some critical thinking then, at least IMO.

I'm not seeing where the 7th trumpet would be mid tribulation though. Take note of what happens at the 7th trumpet.

Revelation 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
19 And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Such as----and thy wrath is come----and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth----and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.


Now compare that with Revelation 13, which BTW, the beginning of the 42 months in that chapter is actually the mid tribulation point.

From Revelation 13----


Revelation 13:4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

Revelation 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Does it sound like these events would be following after the 7th trumpet has sounded? Doesn't it instead sound more reasonable that the 42 months in Revelation 13 precedes the sounding of the 7th trumpet?

and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.

Isn't the latter the correct chronology?

 

[SeventyOne]

Rev 10:7 But in the days of the voice of the seventh angel, when he shall begin to sound, the mystery of God should be finished, as he hath declared to his servants the prophets.

Eph 5:32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.


The New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, and the New Covenant is "everlasting" in Hebrews 13:20.
Therefore, the Old Covenant festivals and trumpets are finished.
They were but a shadow of Christ, based on the words of the Apostle Paul found below.

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.



Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

.

We aren't commanded to observe those days, but that doesn't mean they are finished. Even in the coming millennial kingdom you deny, people will be observing the Feast of Booths (Zechariah 14:18-19). These are days that belong to the Lord (Leviticus 23:4) as I belong to the same Lord. The Jews were commanded to observe them, but they didn't own them.

Even at His first coming, we saw His keeping of His days:
Crucified on Passover, Buried on Unleavened Bread, Resurrection on First Fruits, and here's the link, the Holy Spirit descends on the Church on Pentecost. Next in line is the Feast of Trumpets, and that's when the 'last trump' takes place. the day of the rapture is known (or at least it should be), we just don't know the year.

 

[mark kennedy]

I know this may seem like a silly question... But I have to ask due to all the differing opinions out there on when the rapture will take place.

First, I'd like to state that I am operating based off the assumption that the rapture of the Church occurs at the 7th trumpet blast.

Who out there shares that viewpoint, and why? I'm very interested in this. You could say that this is a mid-trib rapture idea, and where I heard about this was at the International House of Prayer in Kansas City, MO.

But Personally, like most believers, I'm not sure when the rapture will happen...

Anyway, make some good arguments for me! I'd love to indulge in some critical thinking here!

That's roughly a midtributation rapture, personally I think it resolves a lot of things. For one thing it includes Jews that repent during the tribulation. The church goes into the tribulation, I've always believed that but at one point do we get raised, that remains an open question. The final trumpet sounds about right to me, it's a prewrath scenario and fits the prophetic scenario.

 

[BABerean2]

Even at His first coming, we saw His keeping of His days:
Crucified on Passover, Buried on Unleavened Bread, Resurrection on First Fruits, and here's the link, the Holy Spirit descends on the Church on Pentecost.

Christ fulfilled the Old Covenant perfectly.

When a new house is completed the contract to build that house becomes "obsolete".
This is the reason the temple veil was ripped in half when He died at Calvary.
(Hebrews 10:16-18)

He has built us a New House out of two pieces of wood and a handful of nails.
Based on Galatians 4:26 and Hebrews 11:15-16, New Jerusalem is now our home.


Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.


Heb 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,


Heb 12:18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,
Heb 12:19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:
Heb 12:20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:
Heb 12:21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake
Heb 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,
Heb 12:23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,
Heb 12:24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

We find above that we are not come to Mount Sinai, but instead to the New Covenant of Mount Sion.

Tremendous confusion has been produced in the modern Church by a failure to understand the relationship between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant.

.

 

[Everett J Schulte]

That's roughly a midtributation rapture, personally I think it resolves a lot of things. For one thing it includes Jews that repent during the tribulation. The church goes into the tribulation, I've always believed that but at one point do we get raised, that remains an open question. The final trumpet sounds about right to me, it's a prewrath scenario and fits the prophetic scenario.

Couldn't have said it better myself! I think I'm tending to lean towards this idea now. 1 Cor 15:52 "It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown..." Clearly the 7th trumpet is mid tribulation. We as believers will certainly see the AC come to power, we may see many horrific events unfold... But the good part is obviously we know about this beforehand and get to willfully warn and lead to Christ many people until they start worshipping the beast/AC. Wow!

 

[BABerean2]

Couldn't have said it better myself! I think I'm tending to lean towards this idea now. 1 Cor 15:52 "It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown..." Clearly the 7th trumpet is mid tribulation.

You are on the right track and I was where you now are, not that long ago.

With the help of someone here and a local Baptist pastor who thinks outside the box, I came to understand that the Book of Revelation is not in chronological order.

There is no 7 year tribulation period in the Bible.
I can be produced by adding together two of the references to the 42 month period in the book of Revelation, or by taking Daniel 9:27 out of its context.

Based on Matthew 10:5-7 and Galatians 1:14-18, the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for about 7 years before Paul began his ministry to the Gentiles.
This was the 70th week of Daniel.
There is no "gap" in the 490 years.

The Second Coming is found at the end of chapter 6 with those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.
They would not be hiding unless the Lamb is present at the time.
Some of the same characters are found in chapter 19. (captains, mighty men, free, bond, etc.)

It is also found at the 7th trumpet and "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:15-18.

It is found in the "harvest" of chapter 14.

It is found when He "comes as a thief" in Revelation 16:15-16.

It is found again in Revelation chapter 19.

.

 

[mark kennedy]

Couldn't have said it better myself! I think I'm tending to lean towards this idea now. 1 Cor 15:52 "It will happen in a moment, in the blink of an eye, when the last trumpet is blown..." Clearly the 7th trumpet is mid tribulation. We as believers will certainly see the AC come to power, we may see many horrific events unfold... But the good part is obviously we know about this beforehand and get to willfully warn and lead to Christ many people until they start worshipping the beast/AC. Wow!

The church will face the Antichrist, that's what the seals are all about. Check the fifth seal. Israel repents after the abomination that causes desolation and the end of the testimony of the two witnesses in Jerusalem is not an isolated incident. The last trumpet makes sense, it's sometime after the midtribulation, I've always believed that.

 

[Everett J Schulte]

 

[mark kennedy]

View attachment 220294

The way I organized it was seven seals at the beginning, trumpets in the middle and vials of wrath near the end. Each section divdes evenly into blocks of seven chapters.

 

[ewq1938]

Interesting take! And logical!

However, 1 Thess. 4:16-17 does not mention Jesus setting foot upon the earth (which normally I think of as the second coming),

Other scriptures show that he will continue descending to the Earth but I only wanted to show when the rapture actually happens.

 

[Choose Wisely]

Paul stated he was revealing a mystery, then told his readers the rapture will be at the last trump. How could his trumpet reference ever make any sense, or reveal any mystery, if it pertained to a trumpet blast that wouldn't be known about for several decades in the future. Neither Paul or the Thessalonians knew anything about the revelation to John.

Rather, 'the last trump' would have been known as the 100th blast during the Feast of Trumpets. Paul was speaking to them in common festival language they would have understood. I think it's only our current ignorance of the Lords appointed times that makes some try to tie it into a Revelation trumpet they had no knowledge of.

This is absolutely correct. The last trump is blown on the Feast of Trumpets. The 12 tribes will be raptured who the 144,000 firstfruits have witnessed to.
The Church will be raptured pre trib at the trump of God on Pentecost the early summer harvest feast.