Can a believer commit the unforgivable sin?

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, In this lifetime, we will never be perfectly victorious over sin according to 1 John 1:8, but that should still be our goal. With God’s help, and by following the principles of His Word, we can progressively deal with sin and become more and more like Christ.

As for Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection, check out my compilation of verses at this thread here:

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

But the Scriptures actually say..........

John 3:16.....
“For God so loved the world that he gave His only Begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have Everlasting Life” .

Which has to be read in context to the Condemnation.

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

Verse 20 above says that all who do evil hate the light and neither come to the light unless their deeds are reproved (corrected). So doing evil of any kind is not a part of believing in Jesus to have everlasting life.

Acts 16:31.......
“Sirs, what must I do to be saved?”
“Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.”

In an effort to distinguish true faith from mere assent, some, YOU have found it necessary to add requirements to the single requirement of faith for salvation. In keeping with this goal, they/YOU have required a person who wants to be saved to accept the lordship of Christ and to promise to serve the Lord from then on and to KEEP HIS COMMANDMENTS.

Yet, you have to keep reading, dear sir.

Acts of the Apostles 17:30 says,
"And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent"

Jesus defined repentance for us.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

Also, when God had seen that the Ninevites had turned from their evil and wicked ways, that was when God decided to not bring wrath or judgment upon them. So the idea that one can sin and still be saved is not biblical (and neither is it moral).

This has been made a prerequisite to faith. This view is contradicted in Scripture where works follow faith but do not precede it. That is why in Ephesians 2:9 the apostle Paul makes it very explicit when he says, “Not by works so that no one can boast.”

He goes on to say that we have to be renewed to do good works, “for we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do” in Eph. 2:10.

Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about Initial Salvation. We know this because Ephesians 2:1 says that Christ quickened us. We know this because Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. It also speaks of a gift, as well. Gifts are received once and the same gift is not continually given to us over and over again. Ephesians 2:10 is talking about the natural flow of works that comes out of being saved by God's grace through faith (Which is by accepting Jesus Christ, and asking Him to forgive us of our sins, and by believing in His death, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation).

In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 is the horse, and Ephesians 2:10 is the cart.
Paul is saying not to put the cart before the horse. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace and not of works. But Paul is saying that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works and that we should walk in them. The word "should" in Ephesians 2:10 is not a suggestion but more like a command. How so? Well, Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). For again, you said yourself that a believer cannot live in all kinds of sin and be saved. This means that one has to live holy in order to be saved. Granted, we differ on what defines holiness. The Bible says, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). God says be ye holy as I am holy.

God bless you Jason and I pray that you will consider all of these tings.

May God bless you, as well;
And I hope you will consider what I have said with Scripture.

 

[Eloy Craft]

With all due respect Major1. The way you address other's make it obvious you deserve to be highly respected. I hope I can do that justice.
First I would point out that interpretations of scriptures must submit to reason unless an interpretation is given by a higher authority than us. It's what we do whether it is acknowledged or not. That means our God given power of reason is the highest authority we submit to. The most reasonable meaning is the most likely. That's the best we can do. The principle that Truth does not violate Truth is a reasonable tool for knowing the truest meaning of Scripture. But it is no interpreter.

We can not lose our salvation ONCE we truly come to and accept the finished work of the Lord Jesus as the payment for our sins.

The qualifiers to this statement are 'Once, truly, come to, accept. They are words that are necessary because eternal security doesn't submit to observation.

That is why Jesus said.........."DEPART from Me , I NEVER KNEW YOU"!

Another reasonable meaning is, if our love for others is without conditions. Did we love Jesus in the poor without imposing our personal conditions.
If it is about eternal security it's most reasonable to apply it to the disposition of the judged. Why would those who God made secure eternally be judged? Maybe to know what God wanted them to know that they didn't know before. Their salvation is complete and eternally secure. Again,those who thought they were eternally secure weren't and those who were, didn't know it till they were judged. That reality is at the heart of my objection

However, IF A PERSON CLAIMS to be saved who was a murderer, and keeps right on killing people then FRUITS of his actions tell us that he was not saved at all but simple said that he was. Living in KNOWN sin without any guilt to leave that sin is the key to knowing IF a person is saved or that he is only CLAIMING to be saved.

The statement you make here is qualified by these words ' IF, Claims, Known sin, fruits' are necessary because eternal security isn't observable. It is seen by fruits. But fruits in of themselves are difficult to know

James is teaching us that one portion of the law is as much binding as another, and if a man violates any one plain commandment, he sets at nought the authority of God.

I am on board with you there. Only Jesus, by Nature, would never break the Law. He is 'the' Law unto Himself. A plain commandment. What about commandments that should have been plain ? The ones that a person in the desire to avoid the imposition on behavior, avoided making plain to himself what could be.

The heart of my objection is this. There is no way to know for sure, who is and who isn't eternally secure. There are people walking the earth who are saved but don't know it and those who claim they are but aren't. That reality can't be argued. How can eternal security be believed if it is that unreliable? Eternal security can't exist in an environment like that. Jesus taught there is eternal security for sin against the Holy Spirit. It is unforgiven in this life and the next. There is no expression like that for salvation. That you are saved in this life and the next. Even with Jesus being explicit, it still doesn't change the fact there are people walking around among us today who are committing it and don't know it. Who can know but God? There are people walking around who are saved and don't know it. and people who think they are but aren't. I think because that is true eternal security isn't. Your brother in Christ.

 

[Major1]

With all due respect Major1. The way you address other's make it obvious you deserve to be highly respected. I hope I can do that justice.
First I would point out that interpretations of scriptures must submit to reason unless an interpretation is given by a higher authority than us. It's what we do whether it is acknowledged or not. That means our God given power of reason is the highest authority we submit to. The most reasonable meaning is the most likely. That's the best we can do. The principle that Truth does not violate Truth is a reasonable tool for knowing the truest meaning of Scripture. But it is no interpreter.

The qualifiers to this statement are 'Once, truly, come to, accept. They are words that are necessary because eternal security doesn't submit to observation.
Another reasonable meaning is, if our love for others is without conditions. Did we love Jesus in the poor without imposing our personal conditions.
If it is about eternal security it's most reasonable to apply it to the disposition of the judged. Why would those who God made secure eternally be judged? Maybe to know what God wanted them to know that they didn't know before. Their salvation is complete and eternally secure. Again,those who thought they were eternally secure weren't and those who were, didn't know it till they were judged. That reality is at the heart of my objection



The statement you make here is qualified by these words ' IF, Claims, Known sin, fruits' are necessary because eternal security isn't observable. It is seen by fruits. But fruits in of themselves are difficult to know


I am on board with you there. Only Jesus, by Nature, would never break the Law. He is 'the' Law unto Himself. A plain commandment. What about commandments that should have been plain ? The ones that a person in the desire to avoid the imposition on behavior, avoided making plain to himself what could be.

The heart of my objection is this. There is no way to know for sure, who is and who isn't eternally secure. There are people walking the earth who are saved but don't know it and those who claim they are but aren't. That reality can't be argued. How can eternal security be believed if it is that unreliable? Eternal security can't exist in an environment like that. Jesus taught there is eternal security for sin against the Holy Spirit. It is unforgiven in this life and the next. There is no expression like that for salvation. That you are saved in this life and the next. Even with Jesus being explicit, it still doesn't change the fact there are people walking around among us today who are committing it and don't know it. Who can know but God? There are people walking around who are saved and don't know it. and people who think they are but aren't. I think because that is true eternal security isn't. Your brother in Christ.

Thank you for your kind words.

You said............
"The most reasonable meaning is the most likely. That's the best we can do."

Agreed. That is the root of Occam's Razor principle.
Reasonable and Logical go a long way in determining any translation.


You said...........
"The qualifiers to this statement are 'Once, truly, come to, accept."

Agreed!

Then you said............
"How can eternal security be believed if it is that unreliable?"

But our security my brother does not have to be proven to others for it to be real to US.

Personally, I place my conviction upon OSAS because of my study of Scripture; but I do not claim that if someone is as studious as I am, that he will arrive at the same position. I recognize that there are godly people on both sides of the argument. Nevertheless, I must be true to my convictions because I am saved for Christ's sake and not to please or influence others who know or do not know me.

2 Corinthians 5:17 .........

"Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come."

I say the word "IF" because we both know that there are those who declare that they are eternally secure and then go out and sin on purpose in any manner they so choose are probably not saved to begin with since this is contradictory to what Scripture teaches.

1 John 2:4 says........
"The one who says, 'I have come to know Him,' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."

Personally, I believe we are saved with a great deal of error and ignorance. The essentials revolve around the person of Christ and his work--not our faithfulness, not our goodness, not our ability to maintain ourselves. Instead, we must keep our eyes focused on Christ and his accomplishment and rest in him--not in our ability to stay saved, to remain faithful, to keep believing, etc.

No one has everything perfectly understood regarding this topic. Therefore, the best we can do is be faithful to God according to the understanding we each have, treat fellow Christians with love and grace, and seek not to mislead others either into a license to sin or inadvertently advocate keeping our salvation by being good.

 

[Major1]

Which has to be read in context to the Condemnation.

19 "And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God." (John 3:19-21).

Verse 20 above says that all who do evil hate the light and neither come to the light unless their deeds are reproved (corrected). So doing evil of any kind is not a part of believing in Jesus to have everlasting life.



Yet, you have to keep reading, dear sir.

Verse 20 above says that all who do evil hate the light and neither come to the light unless their deeds are reproved (corrected). So doing evil of any kind is not a part of believing in Jesus to have everlasting life.

Jesus said in Matthew 12:41 that the Ninevites will rise up in Judgment against this generation because they repented at the preaching of Jonah. If you were to turn to Jonah chapter 3, you would be able to see in Jonah 3:6-10 that the King of the Ninevites had told his people to:

(a) Cry out to God (i.e. Repentance) (See Jonah 3:8).
(b) Turn from their sins or evil ways (i.e. The Natural Fruits of Repentance).

Also, when God had seen that the Ninevites had turned from their evil and wicked ways, that was when God decided to not bring wrath or judgment upon them. So the idea that one can sin and still be saved is not biblical (and neither is it moral).



Ephesians 2:8-9 is talking about Initial Salvation. We know this because Ephesians 2:1 says that Christ quickened us. We know this because Ephesians 3:17 says that Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith. It also speaks of a gift, as well. Gifts are received once and the same gift is not continually given to us over and over again. Ephesians 2:10 is talking about the natural flow of works that comes out of being saved by God's grace through faith (Which is by accepting Jesus Christ, and asking Him to forgive us of our sins, and by believing in His death, and resurrection on our behalf for salvation).

In other words, Ephesians 2:8-9 is the horse, and Ephesians 2:10 is the cart.
Paul is saying not to put the cart before the horse. We are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace and not of works. But Paul is saying that we are created unto Christ Jesus for good works and that we should walk in them. The word "should" in Ephesians 2:10 is not a suggestion but more like a command. How so? Well, Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17). For again, you said yourself that a believer cannot live in all kinds of sin and be saved. This means that one has to live holy in order to be saved. Granted, we differ on what defines holiness. The Bible says, he that does righteousness is righteous (1 John 3:7). God says be ye holy as I am holy.



May God bless you, as well;
And I hope you will consider what I have said with Scripture.

You said..............
"Verse 20 above says that all who do evil hate the light and neither come to the light unless their deeds are reproved (corrected). So doing evil of any kind is not a part of believing in Jesus to have everlasting life".

Jason, the "LIGHT" is NOT the process of rebellion or sin. "LIGHT" here is not doing evil as you continue to state. That error is causing you to misinterpret the Scriptures.

The "LIGHT" is the Lord Jesus Christ and just as natural light shows up what is otherwise unseen, so Christ the LIGHT exposes the people's deeds as "evil".

The Greek word "evil" is verse 20 is PHAULA which means "worthless". Unbelievers have no ultimate meaning of life, and no worthy motivation, no adequate goal but instead have a destiny of doom.

Yet everyone "who does evil hates the LIGHT (Christ) and loves the darkness (SIN). That person fears that if he comes to the LIGHT (Christ) his deeds will be see as worthless and he would need to turn from them.

You then quoted Acts 17:30 and said that God taught us how to repent................

Absolutely. But Jason, that has nothing to do with being saved eternally or losing ones salvation.

Acts 17:30 teaches us that without a doubt, there was a time when God shut His eyes to paganism and human ignorance. He was patient!

But now LIGHT (CHRIST) has come into the world. Now God asks men everywhere to turn to Christ so that they can be saved. Knowledge creates responsibility and Jesus has come to set men free from their sin. Today, God is commanding that all men everywhere to REPENT.

Luke has presented God as the Creator in His past work.

He has shown God as the redeemer in His present work.

In the nest verse he will show God as the Judge in His future work.

Acts 17:31.........
"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead."


Then you said...............
"So the idea that one can sin and still be saved is not biblical (and neither is it moral)."

Really???? What about YOU Jason? For what YOU said means that YOU have to be sinless.

If I could talk with your wife for 5 minutes I would be able to completely disprove that notion.

In Romans 7:21–23, Paul who wrote more than any other Apostle admits the battle between flesh and spirit in his own life........
“So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me.”

Are you saying that Paul was NOT SAVED Jason?

Are you saying that YOU are NOT saved Jason?

Although Christians will still sin after being saved, the heart change that the Holy Spirit brings will result in a new attitude toward sin. Sin cannot continue being a lifestyle choice if we have REPENTED AND surrendered our lives to Jesus. That’s what it means to say that Jesus is Lord.

We have a new boss. We cannot be followers of Christ and followers of sin at the same time. SALVATION IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN!!!!!!

The ONCE and TRUELY saved man does not have a desire to sin and when he does he is convicted of that sin and repents of it by the conviction of the Holy Spirit, but he does not lose his salvation.

Then you used Ephesians 2:10 to say.......
"This means that one has to live holy in order to be saved.".

We Jason were saved to do good things. We are certainly to try and live holy lives but Holy does not mean "SINLESS" and it certainly does not mea or imply that we must do good deeds to stay saved which is the premise of your conversations.

Do Christians sin? Yes.

Romans 3:23.....
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God"

Do they willfully continue in sin? No.

Jason, we are not trying to live a holy life in order to earn salvation; living a holy life is a natural outgrowth of being saved by God’s grace and filled with His Spirit. It is also important to not give up when we mess up. When we fail, our response should be to confess the sin and keep moving forward in our Christian walk.

 

[Major1]

As for Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection, check out my compilation of verses at this thread here:

The Scriptures Teaching on Sinless Perfection.

Jason......The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature as seen in Romans 7:14–24.

No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven. I think that you should know where your theology actually comes from.

If you will do a little work on this you will find that many years ago, a man by the name of John Wesley, one of the founders of the Holiness Movement, introduced into the Christian community the idea that Christian perfection can be achieved in this life through a second work of grace - the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

Although his "Christian perfection" idea does excuse sins of ignorance. And thus many Holiness types have to maintain an ignorance of their own sinfulness in order to maintain their testimony that they have achieved such a state of perfection.

Wesley also proposes that a perfectly sanctified Christian can nonetheless lose their salvation. "By perfection I mean the humble, gentle, patient love of God and our neighbour, ruling our tempers, words, and actions. I do not include an impossibility of falling from it, either in part or in whole." But here again Wesley, being purely dogmatic, has failed to think this through. For if a person loses salvation by sinning, one who has achieved a state of sinless perfection cannot lose their salvation, since they can no longer sin. And again we have Wesley's statement above that the "truly converted" never fall away.

Thus we find in Wesleyan theology not only contradictions to the Bible, but also logical inconsistencies.

 

[Benaiahian Monk]

Stand Firm
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

2Th 2:14 Whereunto he called you by our gospel, to the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2Th 2:15 Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2Th 2:16 Now our Lord Jesus Christ himself, and God, even our Father, which hath loved us, and hath given us everlasting consolation and good hope through grace,

2Th 2:17 Comfort your hearts, and stablish you in every good word and work.
Everlasting = Forever
Consolation=Comfort(ed) . (Tion) being a verb.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason......The Bible teaches that, while we are in the flesh, we will always struggle with a sin nature as seen in Romans 7:14–24.

Paul is recounting his struggle in trying to keep the Old Law as a Pharisee before he became a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. How so? Romans 7:14-24 is summed up with the words "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" in Romans 8:3.

For Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness (i.e. the righteous part or aspect) of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin). For one of the major fruits of the Spirit is love (Galatians 5:22).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.
​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."

No one will be “perfect” (sinless) until we reach heaven. I think that you should know where your theology actually comes from.

The Bible disagrees with you.

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Are you one of those who don't believe the word "perfect" means "perfect" even though Jesus compared perfection to the Father and Himself? The Bible also uses the word "blameless", as well.

Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

 

[Major1]

Paul is recounting his struggle in trying to keep the Old Law as a Pharisee before he became a Christian in Romans 7:14-24. How so? Romans 7:14-24 is summed up with the words "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh" in Romans 8:3.

For Romans 8:3-4 says,
3 "For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:3-4).

So which Law did God send His Son for so as to condemn sin in the flesh?
It was the Old Covenant Law.
For when Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was ripped from top to bottom letting us know that the Old Testament laws were no longer valid because the Old Laws on the animal sacrifices and the priesthood were no longer acceptable.
Jesus Christ was now our Passover Lamb.
Jesus Christ was soon be our Heavenly High Priest (after He ascended to His father after His resurrection 3 days later) so He can be our mediator between God the Father and man.

Romans 8:4 says, "That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

This is saying that the righteous part or aspect of the Old Law can be fulfilled in us.

Paul says elsewhere,
8 "Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law."
(Romans 13:8-10).

So loving your neighbor is the righteousness (i.e. the righteous part or aspect) of the Old Law!
We fulfill this law by walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh (i.e. sin). For one of the major fruits of the Spirit is love (Galatians 5:22).

So we see a consistent theme here. The word "law" used in general (with no actual description attached to it) is in reference to the Old Law in Romans 7 and Romans 8. This helps us to understand that Paul is telling us his past experience or life as a Pharisee in struggling to keep the Old Law unsuccessfully because he did not have Jesus Christ yet (in verses 14-24).

In addition, in Romans 8:2, we see the mention of how there are TWO laws. We also learn from this verse that keeping one of these Laws helps us to be set FREE from the other one.

In Romans 8:2, we see:

Law #1. - Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
This is a New Covenant Law that we are still under. What is this Law?
It is fulfilling the righteousness of the Law (i.e. to love your neighbor - Romans 13:8-10) by walking after the Spirit (See Romans 8:3-4).

Law #2. Sin and Death.
This is in reference to the Old Covenant Law as a whole (i.e. the 613 Old Testament Commands within the Torah). It is called the Law of Sin and Death because you could physically be put to death by not obeying this Law.
​

What is the relationship of these two laws in Romans 8:2?

Keeping the New Law helps us to be free of the Old Law.
For there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. (Romans 8:1).

Romans 13:14 says,
"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof."



The Bible disagrees with you.

Jesus says, “Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matthew 5:48).

Jesus says, “The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.” (Luke 6:40).

GOD says, “Be ye holy as I am holy” (1 Peter 1:16 cf. Leviticus 11:45).

Jesus said to two people to, "sin no more." (John 5:14) (John 8:11). In fact, Jesus said to the man that Jesus healed that if he were to sin again, a worse thing would come upon him. For Jesus said, “sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.” (John 5:14).

The author of Hebrews says, “Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen” (Hebrews 13:20-21).

Paul says, “Epaphras, who is one of you, a servant of Christ, saluteth you, always labouring fervently for you in prayers, that ye may stand perfect and complete in all the will of God.” (Colossians 4:12).

Paul says, “Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.” (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Paul says, “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works.” (2 Timothy 3:16-17).

Are you one of those who don't believe the word "perfect" means "perfect" even though Jesus compared perfection to the Father and Himself? The Bible also uses the word "blameless", as well.

Paul says, “And may the Lord make you increase and abound in love for one another and for all men, even as we do for you. To this end may He establish your hearts to be blameless in holiness before our God and Father at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ with all His saints.” (1 Thessalonians 3:12-13 MEV).

Paul says, “And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

Paul says, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world.” (Philippians 2:15).

Jason, my dear friend, To put it bluntly, perfectionism is a hoax. We cannot be perfect! Yet many well-meaning people continue to strive for this unattainable goal. Perfectionism often involves raising the bar to absurd heights and striving in our own efforts for something that only God can do.

The point of the gospel is that we are unable to save ourselves.

Lets consider Mathhew 5:48 that you used shall we.
The Greek word for “perfect” here is telios. It means “brought to its end, completed, or perfect.” So, to be “perfect” in this sense is not how perfectionists so often imagine it. Rather, it is to be completed in Christ. Philippians 1:6 says that completion is the work of God. He created us, saved us, and is faithful to perfect us. So As I have said to you, the Bible does not teach sinless perfection and this verse does not apply.

Then you used Luke 6:40. The word in that verse rendered "is perfect" means to repair or mend, and is thus applied to mending fishing nets. It is the same word used in Matthew 4:21 and Mark 1:19. Hence, it means to repair or amend in a moral sense, or to make whole or complete. Here it means, evidently, "thoroughly instructed" or "informed." The Christian should be like his Master - holy, harmless, and undefiled, and separate from sinners and DOES NOT MEAN OR EEN SUGGEST "SINLESS PERFECTION" which you are trying to make it say.
So once again we see that the Bible verse you used does not apply when studied correctly.

Then you used 1 Peter 1:16.

Matthew 5:28...........
"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Matthew 22:37.........
"And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’"
Matthew 22:39.........
"'The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’"

We see in those verses that Jesus taught that the intention of the heart is important to God. This is because God's heart is perfect. He is holy which is why He says in 1 Peter 1:16, "Be holy, for I am holy."
God is the standard of holiness, and Jesus reveals the necessity of the perfect standard.

Can any Christian say that his heart is perfect and that he never falters? That he never looks upon a woman with impure thoughts? That he loves the Lord God with all of his heart, and that he loves his neighbor as himself, all with a perfect state of mind? The standard is absolute purity. None of us can claim that reason and I am including YOU.
So again we see that 1 Peter 1:16 does not validate SINLESS PERFECTION.

Then you used John 5:14.
At a very simple level, even asking this question is presuming that everything Jesus said must be taken to its logical extreme.

Imagine, your doctor says, "Cut the beef out of your diet!" What he is saying is both clear (eat less red meat) and fully "doable." And yet, if you're at a wedding where the only entree is steak, do you think the doctor would never see you again if you partook?

Indeed, what the doctor is saying is what Jesus is saying: This is hurting you. It is not good for you. Endeavor to reduce it! If you fall off the wagon, even the attempt to reduce the behavior in question will benefit you.

The notion of perfection- telos-(as in Matt 5 when Jesus says "Be ye perfect even as I am perfect") does not demand a state but rather a direction. It is pointed to an end- in this case being like Christ- but it does not demand that all fullness be achieved.

After all, if the sick were no longer sick, they would have no need of the Physic

Then we have Hebrews 13:20-21.
The word “PERFECT ” does not mean what YOU want it to mean. YOU are picking out verses that have the word PERFECT in them in order to promote what you think of when we talk about something being perfect. The word literally means to “repair” or “to adjust.” It speaks of something being prepared as I have already explained to you about the fishing nets.

When the writer of Hebrews spoke of God making us perfect, He is talking about God preparing or equipping us to do His will. It has been well said that where God guides He provides. God equips us to do His will. Or to put it another way, God gives us the ability to do His will.
So once again we see that YOUR understanding is flawed and the verse IS NOT suggesting sinless PERFECTION.

Then we have Colossians 4:12.
The correct exegesis here is Manifestation of stability. Epaphras prayed that the stability desired for his people might manifest itself in their lives in Christian maturity and assurance: “that ye may stand perfect and fully assured.” The word translated “perfect” does not imply sinlessness but rather means spiritual maturity. Epaphras desired that the Colossians become full-grown as contrasted to spiritual babes. The believer becomes “perfect” or complete as he attains to the divine goal for his life. Such maturity of character comes only through abiding union with Christ.
So as with all the other verses, this one does not suggest sinless perfection either.

Then 2 Corinthians 7:1.
This word YOU are focused on "PERFECTUBG" in the Greek here is ( ἐπιτελοῦντες epitelountes) and it means properly to bring to an end, to finish, complete. The idea here is, that of carrying it out to the completion. Holiness had been commenced in the heart, and the exhortation of the apostle is, that they should make every effort that it might be complete in all its parts. He does not say that this work of perfection had ever been accomplished or even could be while we are in this body of flesh.

And again, we see that you are incorrect in your understanding of the what the Scriptures actullay say.


Then 2 Timothy 3:17.
Well, as has been proven now 3 times for YOU, the word “perfect” is a word that actually means “complete,” and in come contexts, it can simply mean “fresh” – at the peak of its development (like a well-formed peach, ripened on the tree to the point of being perfectly complete – fresh fruit).

Well, that’s what happens to a person who turns his or her life over to the Lord and lets the Word of God perform its transforming work day after day. That person becomes complete as a man or woman of God. He or she becomes spiritually mature.
Remember perfect doesn’t mean you’re really perfect.

It just means you don’t act like a kid anymore.

1 Thees. 5:23.
Nope. This one will not work for you either my friend.
Paul is talking about SANCTIFICATION!
Sanctification has to do with setting our lives or bodies aside or apart for God. It comes from the Old Testament as the priest sanctified or set the utensils of the temple apart for service to God. Paul is asking us to sanctify our lives.
So again we see that correct teaching removes the false thesis that we can achieve sinless perfection in this body of flesh.

Then finally we have Philippians 2:15.
That verse simply means That you may give no occasion for others to accuse you of having done wrong.

So Jason, I have addressed each verse you posted and have shown that your understanding is incorrect.

There are NO Scriptures which state that a man can achieve sinless perfection in this body we have now.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

It is significant that John talked of WALKING in the light instead of "ACCORDING" to the light.

To walk ACCORDING to the light would require "sinless perfection" and would make felloeship with God impossible for YOU and ME because we are sinners and as humans we SIN.

Well, without you having to mention the following Scriptural reference, my guess is that you believe a part of Romans 3 is saying that "everyone will always sin in this life" no matter who they are. Meaning, there is no such thing as a faithful believer or a believer who can walk uprightly. However, when you read Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23, that says there is none righteous and all have sinned, you also have to read verse 11 that says, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11). In other words, if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 applies to the believer than you must also believe that the believer has no understanding and does not seek after God, too.

To WALK IN it, however suggests instead openness and responsiveness to the Light which is of course the Lord Jesus. John DID NOT think of Christians as being able to be sinless at all and he made that very clear in the last part of the verse you choose.

John added these words....."The blood of Jesus His Son purifies from EVERY sin."

So then, the correct exegesis of this verse is that when it affirms that 2 things are true of all believers in Christ who try to live the Christian life........
A). They are in fellowship with God.
B). They are BEING CLEANSED from every sin.

So then, we who are born again and commit a sin AFTER being saved are under the cleansing power of the shed blood of Jesus Christ.

That clearly and effectively means that we are forgiven of the sin we commit when we commit it and it also means that we do not lose our salvation because we do commit a sin.

1 John 1:7 does not say what you are saying here.

We know that John is referring to walking in the light in 1 John 1:7 as in reference to obedience to his commands. 1 John 2:6 says, "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." This lines up with the words of Jesus when He says, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Paul essentially says that if we love our neighbor, we fulfill the moral commands like: "Do not murder," "Do not covet," and "Do not steal," etc. (Romans 13:8-10).

This helps us to understand that "light" is in reference to obeying God's commands (or in loving one's brother), and "darkness" is in reference to disobeying God's commands (hating one's brother).

8 "Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." (1 John 2:8-11).

This means obeying God's commands is the same as walking in the light of Christ and in loving one's brother (or neighbor) and by obeying the Lord, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Again, Matthew 19:17 says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jason, my dear friend, To put it bluntly, perfectionism is a hoax.

The Bible says otherwise. For if one were to do a quick search at BlueLetterBible, they would see that the word "perfect" is used in context to obedience to God in some way at least 14 times. This does not include the other related words like blameless, etc..

We cannot be perfect!

“With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.” (Matthew 19:26).

Yet many well-meaning people continue to strive for this unattainable goal. Perfectionism often involves raising the bar to absurd heights and striving in our own efforts for something that only God can do.

It is true that God can only obey perfectly. But what you are failing to understand is that God is the One who works through His people to help them to obey (When they surrender to Him).

For who ultimately does the "good work" in a believer's life?

Is it God?
Or is it the believer?

Click on the following spoiler button for the answer (with Scripture).

Spoiler

Well, Scripture tells us that God (Christ) is the One who ultimately does the work within a believer.

Philippians 1:6
Philippians 1:11
Philippians 2:13
Philippians 4:13
1 Corinthians 15:10
Hebrews 12:1-2
Hebrews 13:21
Isaiah 26:12
1 John 4:12
Galatians 5:22-24 (cf. Matthew 7:16-18, Matthew 19:17)
John 15:5
Ezekiel 36:26-27

For that is why the 24 elders cast their crowns down before Jesus (Revelation 4:10). For the crowns they received for their good work was all the result of Christ working in them.

Yeah, but doesn't a believer do the work, too? Now, yes, it is true; A believer is created unto Christ Jesus for good works (Ephesians 2:10); And a believer is indeed held accountable by their "good works" here upon this Earth at a Judgment. But we must also realize that true believers are not ultimately doing these "good works" alone or of their own power, though. For in 1 Corinthians 15:10 Paul said that he labored more than all of his brethren, yet he said it was not him that labored but it was the grace of God that was within him. So true believer's are just choosing to allow God's "good work" to flow within them or not.

So no. I do not believe in Man Directed Works Alone Salvationism. I believe if someone truly has accepted the LORD and Christ lives within them, then good fruit (And not bad fruit) will be evident in their life to prove that the One who is salvation itself abides within them (1 John 5:12).

The point of the gospel is that we are unable to save ourselves.

No. The point or purpose of the gospel is to make the church holy, and without blemish and zealous of good works. For it is written...

25 "...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word,
27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish."
(Ephesians 5:25-27).

"Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works." (Titus 2:14).

Lets consider Mathhew 5:48 that you used shall we.
The Greek word for “perfect” here is telios. It means “brought to its end, completed, or perfect.” So, to be “perfect” in this sense is not how perfectionists so often imagine it. Rather, it is to be completed in Christ.

Let's look at the context shall we?

First, Jesus just got done telling us to love our enemies, bless them that curse us, do good to them that hate us, and pray for them which despitefully use us, and persecute us. Why? So that we may be children of our Father who is in Heaven (See Matthew 5:44-45). This is what Jesus means when He says be ye therefore perfect as your Heavenly Father is perfect. By loving our enemies, etc. we become perfect as our Father in this life (and not the next one). Second, perfect is compared with the perfection of the Father. Be ye perfect just as your heavenly Father is perfect. Are you saying the Father is not perfect?

Philippians 1:6says that completion is the work of God. He created us, saved us, and is faithful to perfect us. So As I have said to you, the Bible does not teach sinless perfection and this verse does not apply.

What you say here does not fit the context.

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling." (Philippians 2:12).

But in your belief, you do not need to work out your salvation with fear and trembling.
But let me guess, you think the word "fear" does not mean "fear" just as the word "perfect" does not mean "perfect."

Then you used Luke 6:40. The word in that verse rendered "is perfect" means to repair or mend, and is thus applied to mending fishing nets. It is the same word used in Matthew 4:21 and Mark 1:19. Hence, it means to repair or amend in a moral sense, or to make whole or complete. Here it means, evidently, "thoroughly instructed" or "informed." The Christian should be like his Master - holy, harmless, and undefiled, and separate from sinners and DOES NOT MEAN OR EEN SUGGEST "SINLESS PERFECTION" which you are trying to make it say.
So once again we see that the Bible verse you used does not apply when studied correctly.

Again, you are not reading and believing Scripture here a face value.

"...every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

It says everyone who is perfect shall be AS his master. It does not say sort of like his master or kind of like his master. It says everyone who is perfect shall be AS his master.

Then you used 1 Peter 1:16.

Matthew 5:28...........
"but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."
Matthew 22:37.........
"And He said to him, “‘YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND.’"
Matthew 22:39.........
"'The second is like it, ‘YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.’"

We see in those verses that Jesus taught that the intention of the heart is important to God. This is because God's heart is perfect. He is holy which is why He says in 1 Peter 1:16, "Be holy, for I am holy."
God is the standard of holiness, and Jesus reveals the necessity of the perfect standard.

First, you need to read the context of 1 Peter 1:16. It says,

14 "As obedient children, not fashioning yourselves according to the former lusts in your ignorance:
15 But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation;
16 Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy." (1 Peter 1:14-16).

While Jesus is perfect and while He can wash away our past sin perfectly, I see nothing about Jesus being our perfect standard for us in this passage here. It is talking about how we are to be obedient children and not fashion ourselves after our former lusts. We are called to be holy in conversation because it is written, be ye holy, as God is holy. What is the comparison to who we are to be holy with? It is God.

As for Matthew 5:28:
Well, Matthew 5:28-30 refutes the Eternal Security belief. Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body is in danger of being cast into hell fire.

As for Matthew 22:37:
Jesus is God; And Scripture says that if any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema (accursed) (See 1 Corinthians 16:22).

Matthew 22:39:
Well, failing to love your neighbor can be a potential salvation issue, as well.
In the Parable of the Good Samaritan we learn that our neighbor is the poor and beat up man the side of the road that the good Samaritan helps (See Luke 10:25-37). Jesus essentially tells us in Matthew 25:31-46 that if we refuse to help the poor in this life, we can be cast into everlasting fire.

Can any Christian say that his heart is perfect and that he never falters? That he never looks upon a woman with impure thoughts? That he loves the Lord God with all of his heart, and that he loves his neighbor as himself, all with a perfect state of mind? The standard is absolute purity. None of us can claim that reason and I am including YOU.
So again we see that 1 Peter 1:16 does not validate SINLESS PERFECTION.

It does not matter if no person on the planet is walking perfectly. God's Word is still true regardless. God says in His Word very clearly that we can overcome sin and walk perfectly if we abide in Him and His words. This is not by our own power but by the power of God so as to walk perfectly and upright in this life.

Then you used John 5:14.
At a very simple level, even asking this question is presuming that everything Jesus said must be taken to its logical extreme.

Imagine, your doctor says, "Cut the beef out of your diet!" What he is saying is both clear (eat less red meat) and fully "doable." And yet, if you're at a wedding where the only entree is steak, do you think the doctor would never see you again if you partook?

Indeed, what the doctor is saying is what Jesus is saying: This is hurting you. It is not good for you. Endeavor to reduce it! If you fall off the wagon, even the attempt to reduce the behavior in question will benefit you.

Nowhere does Jesus suggest to the man that he should reduce his sin intake or a worse thing would come upon him. Jesus says very clearly, "sin no more." (John 5:14). "Sin no more" means exactly that. It means to: "Sin no more." For example: If Bob told Rick to: "Do not yell at me anymore." Do you think Bob would want Rick to merely reduce his yelling? No.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...if the sick were no longer sick, they would have no need of the Physician.

So what will Jesus do when He finds out that His followers have no more need for Him in His Kingdom when He eliminates sin and death? (See Revelation 21:4).
I mean, do you not see how silly that argument sounds?

In fact, what do good doctors do?
Do they leave their patients to remain sick or even sick a little?
No. They cure them. That is why Jesus does not call the righteous.
For they are already whole and cured (Which can only be by His grace, power and working in their life).

Then we have Hebrews 13:20-21.
The word “PERFECT ” does not mean what YOU want it to mean. YOU are picking out verses that have the word PERFECT in them in order to promote what you think of when we talk about something being perfect. The word literally means to “repair” or “to adjust.” It speaks of something being prepared as I have already explained to you about the fishing nets.

First of all, you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek. Nobody has in many hundreds of years from now. If you grew up in Biblical times in the Greek world, that would be different. But you didn't.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary says,

Perfect
Per´fect
1. Brought to consummation or completeness; completed; not defective nor redundant; having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind; without flaw, fault, or blemish; without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.
My strength is made perfect in weakness.
- 2 Cor. xii. 9.

Source:
Perfect | Definition of Perfect by Webster's Online Dictionary

Second, although a search at BlueLetterBible shows that the same Greek word καταρτίζω can be used for the English word "mend" elsewhere in Scripture, it does not mean that it defined as "mend" in this case. There are many words in the English language that look and sound the same but they have entirely different meanings. These are called homonyms. For example: The word "bark" is something a dog does and it is also something that is a part of a tree. Depending on the context, we can determine it's use in defining it.

Hebrews 13:21 is not referring to a completeness of works to do God's will. First of all, how does one even have a completeness in doing God's work? How does that lead to doing God's will? Doesn't it make more sense that we are perfect in the way we do a good work whereby we are then doing God's will? For example: Have you ever heard of the phrase, "practice makes perfect?" This is what I believe God wants from us. Why? Because to do God's will, we cannot include sin or imperfection. To do God's will involves us to be pure in our thoughts and actions. To say that we are complete in our thoughts and actions is confusing. We can say that we are complete in our work but it could still be imperfect work. Can such a work truly do the will of God? While all things work together for good to those who love God (so as to accomplish God's greater plan for good), we have to act in a way that is considered perfect (and not imperfect) according to the Lord so as to do God's "perfect will" (for our lives). This is very important because God said to a particular church that he did not find their works perfect and he was telling them strengthen the things that remain and to repent. God is telling them not to defile their garments. This means they cannot abide in sin. They are to strengthen the works they are doing by perfecting them (See Revelation 3).

In addition, the word "perfect" in Hebrews 13:21 is accurate according to the context.

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:11).

Here we see a believer who is imperfect by the fact that they are being chastened because of some sin in their life. The goal of chastening is to get one to stop sinning. First, it says that the result here is the peaceable fruit of righteousness. How can the peaceable fruit of righteousness be complete and yet imperfect? Doesn't the peaceable fruit of righteousness sound like something good from God that is not flawed and carnal? Second, a master chastens his dog in pooping on the carpet with the intended goal that he will get the animal to stop laying hot steaming piles of nastiness all over his wonderful home. The master does not chasten the dog so that the animal will poop less on his beautiful carpet or to correct the dog senselessly with no change in it's behavior.

Also, Hebrews 12:14-15 says,
14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"

Okay. Here we have a serious warning. We are to follow peace with all men and we are to follow after holiness, if we do not do these two things, we shall not see the Lord. So we are to look diligently upon these two things unless we shall fail the grace of God and unless we let any a root of bitterness spring up within us whereby we can be defiled. This fits with God making us perfect in our work to do His will. For God does not do anything that is imperfect, does He? Surely not.

So your attempt to see another far out meaning for the word "perfect" is not supported by the context, and or the dictionary.

When the writer of Hebrews spoke of God making us perfect, He is talking about God preparing or equipping us to do His will. It has been well said that where God guides He provides. God equips us to do His will. Or to put it another way, God gives us the ability to do His will. So once again we see that YOUR understanding is flawed and the verse IS NOT suggesting sinless PERFECTION.

What does it even mean in your own words that God is equipping you to do His will?
Does this include imperfection?
Can you do that which is sinful and also accomplish God's will?
Surely not. One has to do that which is perfect and good in God's eyes to do His perfect will.
God's perfect will for our life is not accomplished if we are doing something imperfect.
Yes, God can change an evil situation into a good one, but that is not the same thing as what we do for God in regards to His perfect will. Again, Matthew 5 is a great example. We are to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect by loving, and doing good towards our enemies. If we are loving only some enemies and hating others, I would say that we are not really loving our enemies. One is only dong half the job. If one wants to be perfect like the father we are to do that which is required that is good that fulfills God's will.

 

[Eloy Craft]

Major1, thank you so much for defending your faith in Christ with the kind of love that proves you are His disciple.
Paradoxically the only statement I think it good for me to express and you to hear my contention is also the one that warmed my heart. I say, fair enough to all you wrote but the "US" in that particular statement.

But our security my brother does not have to be proven to others for it to be real to US.

I do believe that it's possible that God grants eternal security to certain individuals for reasons particular to themselves. Because of that, along with the reasons I have already stated, I find that the human mode of knowing is insufficient to enable a community of eternally secure Christians to form. Each person in the community could only be certain of their own state of salvation. Eternal security would require certainty that only an individual can have and only about himself. To know if another person has the gift is impossible. That to me, means that it's unreasonable for a Christian community to be defined as eternally secure.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Major1, thank you so much for defending your faith in Christ with the kind of love that proves you are His disciple.
Paradoxically the only statement I think it good for me to express and you to hear my contention is also the one that warmed my heart. I say, fair enough to all you wrote but the "US" in that particular statement.

I do believe that it's possible that God grants eternal security to certain individuals for reasons particular to themselves. Because of that, along with the reasons I have already stated, I find that the human mode of knowing is insufficient to enable a community of eternally secure Christians to form. Each person in the community could only be certain of their own state of salvation. Eternal security would require certainty that only an individual can have and only about himself. To know if another person has the gift is impossible. That to me, means that it's unreasonable for a Christian community to be defined as eternally secure.

Although I would not seek to condemn a people or person directly, we can have an idea about another's standing with the Lord (See 1 John 2:3-6 (cf. Matthew 7:15-20). 1 John 3:10, 1 John 2:29).

John had written this verse to faithful believers:

"These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God."
(1 John 5:13).​

One of the ways John says we can know Christ (God) is if we find that we keep his commandments (1 John 2:3). He that says he knows him and does not keep his commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (1 John 2:4).

He that does not righteousness is not of God (1 John 3:10).
Jesus said, by their fruits you will know them (Matthew 7:16).

 

[Danthemailman]

The concept of "blasphemy against the Spirit" is mentioned in Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-32. This case of blasphemy is a specific one, called "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 12:31. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon "Beelzebub" (Matthew 12:24).

They were obviously not believers and notice that in Mark 3:30, Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." That cannot be duplicated today, yet the sin that is unpardonable for man today is the state of continued unbelief (John 3:18).

 

[Bible Highlighter]

The concept of "blasphemy against the Spirit" is mentioned in Mark 3:22-30 and Matthew 12:22-32. This case of blasphemy is a specific one, called "the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit" in Matthew 12:31. In Matthew 12:31-32, the Pharisees, having witnessed irrefutable proof that Jesus was working miracles in the power of the Holy Spirit, claimed instead that the Lord was possessed by the demon "Beelzebub" (Matthew 12:24).

They were obviously not believers and notice that in Mark 3:30, Jesus is very specific about what they did to commit "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit." That cannot be duplicated today, yet the sin that is unpardonable for man today is the state of continued unbelief (John 3:18).

Matthew 12:32 clearly says whosoever speaks a word against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven. Jesus is clear that it is not just with the example with Pharisees speaking against Him, but that this sin was also possible to commit in the world to come (in addition to being able to commit this sin in this world). The words “world to come” is in reference to the Millennium or the 1,000 year reign of Christ. As far as Scripture makes clear, it is highly doubtful that atheists or agnostics will exist during the Millennium.

I believe folks are trying to do a black flip twist of this text because they have a presuppositional belief that cannot be found within the Scriptures. God’s Word is generally plain in the individual words that it uses to communicate to us.

 

[Major1]

Major1, thank you so much for defending your faith in Christ with the kind of love that proves you are His disciple.
Paradoxically the only statement I think it good for me to express and you to hear my contention is also the one that warmed my heart. I say, fair enough to all you wrote but the "US" in that particular statement.

I do believe that it's possible that God grants eternal security to certain individuals for reasons particular to themselves. Because of that, along with the reasons I have already stated, I find that the human mode of knowing is insufficient to enable a community of eternally secure Christians to form. Each person in the community could only be certain of their own state of salvation. Eternal security would require certainty that only an individual can have and only about himself. To know if another person has the gift is impossible. That to me, means that it's unreasonable for a Christian community to be defined as eternally secure.

Excellently said and I agree.

You see, the Bible says that Jesus is our "Personal Saviour".
That means that we are saved one at a time on an individual basis.

The failure I think in the idea that we can lose our salvation is rooted in the wrong basis of our salvation.

We are not saved by what we do or do not do. The basis of each believers salvation is that we are saved by His record, not ours. Our salvation is based on what Jesus did not what we do or do not do.

1 Peter 1:5 .....
"who by God’s power are protected through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

Ephesians 1:6.....
" to the praise of the glory of his grace that he has freely bestowed on us in his dearly loved Son. "

Ephesians 2:8-9 ......
"For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. "

 

[Major1]

So what will Jesus do when He finds out that His followers have no more need for Him in His Kingdom when He eliminates sin and death? (See Revelation 21:4).
I mean, do you not see how silly that argument sounds?

In fact, what do good doctors do?
Do they leave their patients to remain sick or even sick a little?
No. They cure them. That is why Jesus does not call the righteous.
For they are already whole and cured (Which can only be by His grace, power and working in their life).



First of all, you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek. Nobody has in many hundreds of years from now. If you grew up in Biblical times in the Greek world, that would be different. But you didn't.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary says,

Perfect
Per´fect
1. Brought to consummation or completeness; completed; not defective nor redundant; having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind; without flaw, fault, or blemish; without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.
My strength is made perfect in weakness.
- 2 Cor. xii. 9.

Source:
Perfect | Definition of Perfect by Webster's Online Dictionary

Second, although a search at BlueLetterBible shows that the same Greek word καταρτίζω can be used for the English word "mend" elsewhere in Scripture, it does not mean that it defined as "mend" in this case. There are many words in the English language that look and sound the same but they have entirely different meanings. These are called homonyms. For example: The word "bark" is something a dog does and it is also something that is a part of a tree. Depending on the context, we can determine it's use in defining it.

Hebrews 13:21 is not referring to a completeness of works to do God's will. First of all, how does one even have a completeness in doing God's work? How does that lead to doing God's will? Doesn't it make more sense that we are perfect in the way we do a good work whereby we are then doing God's will? For example: Have you ever heard of the phrase, "practice makes perfect?" This is what I believe God wants from us. Why? Because to do God's will, we cannot include sin or imperfection. To do God's will involves us to be pure in our thoughts and actions. To say that we are complete in our thoughts and actions is confusing. We can say that we are complete in our work but it could still be imperfect work. Can such a work truly do the will of God? While all things work together for good to those who love God (so as to accomplish God's greater plan for good), we have to act in a way that is considered perfect (and not imperfect) according to the Lord so as to do God's "perfect will" (for our lives). This is very important because God said to a particular church that he did not find their works perfect and he was telling them strengthen the things that remain and to repent. God is telling them not to defile their garments. This means they cannot abide in sin. They are to strengthen the works they are doing by perfecting them (See Revelation 3).

In addition, the word "perfect" in Hebrews 13:21 is accurate according to the context.

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:11).

Here we see a believer who is imperfect by the fact that they are being chastened because of some sin in their life. The goal of chastening is to get one to stop sinning. First, it says that the result here is the peaceable fruit of righteousness. How can the peaceable fruit of righteousness be complete and yet imperfect? Doesn't the peaceable fruit of righteousness sound like something good from God that is not flawed and carnal? Second, a master chastens his dog in pooping on the carpet with the intended goal that he will get the animal to stop laying hot steaming piles of nastiness all over his wonderful home. The master does not chasten the dog so that the animal will poop less on his beautiful carpet or to correct the dog senselessly with no change in it's behavior.

Also, Hebrews 12:14-15 says,
14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"

Okay. Here we have a serious warning. We are to follow peace with all men and we are to follow after holiness, if we do not do these two things, we shall not see the Lord. So we are to look diligently upon these two things unless we shall fail the grace of God and unless we let any a root of bitterness spring up within us whereby we can be defiled. This fits with God making us perfect in our work to do His will. For God does not do anything that is imperfect, does He? Surely not.

So your attempt to see another far out meaning for the word "perfect" is not supported by the context, and or the dictionary.



What does it even mean in your own words that God is equipping you to do His will?
Does this include imperfection?
Can you do that which is sinful and also accomplish God's will?
Surely not. One has to do that which is perfect and good in God's eyes to do His perfect will.
God's perfect will for our life is not accomplished if we are doing something imperfect.
Yes, God can change an evil situation into a good one, but that is not the same thing as what we do for God in regards to His perfect will. Again, Matthew 5 is a great example. We are to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect by loving, and doing good towards our enemies. If we are loving only some enemies and hating others, I would say that we are not really loving our enemies. One is only dong half the job. If one wants to be perfect like the father we are to do that which is required that is good that fulfills God's will.

Sin does not change our relationship to God as His children though it does affect our fellowship, the intimacy of our walk with God, our ability to serve Him, and the rewards we will receive in the future kingdom.

1 Corinthians 3:12-15.......
" If anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, 13 each builder’s work will be plainly seen, for the Day will make it clear, because it will be revealed by fire. And the fire will test what kind of work each has done. If what someone has built survives, he will receive a reward. If someone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as through fire."

 

[Major1]

So what will Jesus do when He finds out that His followers have no more need for Him in His Kingdom when He eliminates sin and death? (See Revelation 21:4).
I mean, do you not see how silly that argument sounds?

In fact, what do good doctors do?
Do they leave their patients to remain sick or even sick a little?
No. They cure them. That is why Jesus does not call the righteous.
For they are already whole and cured (Which can only be by His grace, power and working in their life).



First of all, you did not grow up speaking and writing Biblical Greek. Nobody has in many hundreds of years from now. If you grew up in Biblical times in the Greek world, that would be different. But you didn't.

Webster's 1913 Dictionary says,

Perfect
Per´fect
1. Brought to consummation or completeness; completed; not defective nor redundant; having all the properties or qualities requisite to its nature and kind; without flaw, fault, or blemish; without error; mature; whole; pure; sound; right; correct.
My strength is made perfect in weakness.
- 2 Cor. xii. 9.

Source:
Perfect | Definition of Perfect by Webster's Online Dictionary

Second, although a search at BlueLetterBible shows that the same Greek word καταρτίζω can be used for the English word "mend" elsewhere in Scripture, it does not mean that it defined as "mend" in this case. There are many words in the English language that look and sound the same but they have entirely different meanings. These are called homonyms. For example: The word "bark" is something a dog does and it is also something that is a part of a tree. Depending on the context, we can determine it's use in defining it.

Hebrews 13:21 is not referring to a completeness of works to do God's will. First of all, how does one even have a completeness in doing God's work? How does that lead to doing God's will? Doesn't it make more sense that we are perfect in the way we do a good work whereby we are then doing God's will? For example: Have you ever heard of the phrase, "practice makes perfect?" This is what I believe God wants from us. Why? Because to do God's will, we cannot include sin or imperfection. To do God's will involves us to be pure in our thoughts and actions. To say that we are complete in our thoughts and actions is confusing. We can say that we are complete in our work but it could still be imperfect work. Can such a work truly do the will of God? While all things work together for good to those who love God (so as to accomplish God's greater plan for good), we have to act in a way that is considered perfect (and not imperfect) according to the Lord so as to do God's "perfect will" (for our lives). This is very important because God said to a particular church that he did not find their works perfect and he was telling them strengthen the things that remain and to repent. God is telling them not to defile their garments. This means they cannot abide in sin. They are to strengthen the works they are doing by perfecting them (See Revelation 3).

In addition, the word "perfect" in Hebrews 13:21 is accurate according to the context.

"Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:11).

Here we see a believer who is imperfect by the fact that they are being chastened because of some sin in their life. The goal of chastening is to get one to stop sinning. First, it says that the result here is the peaceable fruit of righteousness. How can the peaceable fruit of righteousness be complete and yet imperfect? Doesn't the peaceable fruit of righteousness sound like something good from God that is not flawed and carnal? Second, a master chastens his dog in pooping on the carpet with the intended goal that he will get the animal to stop laying hot steaming piles of nastiness all over his wonderful home. The master does not chasten the dog so that the animal will poop less on his beautiful carpet or to correct the dog senselessly with no change in it's behavior.

Also, Hebrews 12:14-15 says,
14 "Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
15 Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;"

Okay. Here we have a serious warning. We are to follow peace with all men and we are to follow after holiness, if we do not do these two things, we shall not see the Lord. So we are to look diligently upon these two things unless we shall fail the grace of God and unless we let any a root of bitterness spring up within us whereby we can be defiled. This fits with God making us perfect in our work to do His will. For God does not do anything that is imperfect, does He? Surely not.

So your attempt to see another far out meaning for the word "perfect" is not supported by the context, and or the dictionary.



What does it even mean in your own words that God is equipping you to do His will?
Does this include imperfection?
Can you do that which is sinful and also accomplish God's will?
Surely not. One has to do that which is perfect and good in God's eyes to do His perfect will.
God's perfect will for our life is not accomplished if we are doing something imperfect.
Yes, God can change an evil situation into a good one, but that is not the same thing as what we do for God in regards to His perfect will. Again, Matthew 5 is a great example. We are to be perfect as the Heavenly Father is perfect by loving, and doing good towards our enemies. If we are loving only some enemies and hating others, I would say that we are not really loving our enemies. One is only dong half the job. If one wants to be perfect like the father we are to do that which is required that is good that fulfills God's will.

YOUR definition of being perfect means that you don't make any mistakes or that you do not commit and sin.

Now that kind of thinking can and will lead to YOU thinking that you think that you are better than others. That in always the end of Sinless Perfection theology.

GOD'S definition of perfect according to the bible means that you are mature in the word of GOD, that you are mature in love, and are able to bridle(keep your mouth from guile) your tongue, in the book of James says than you are a perfect person! Also being attentive to the widows and the orphans in their tines of distress is pure, true and perfect undefiled religion in the sight of GOD!

 

[Major1]

Well, without you having to mention the following Scriptural reference, my guess is that you believe a part of Romans 3 is saying that "everyone will always sin in this life" no matter who they are. Meaning, there is no such thing as a faithful believer or a believer who can walk uprightly. However, when you read Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23, that says there is none righteous and all have sinned, you also have to read verse 11 that says, "There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God." (Romans 3:11). In other words, if you believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 applies to the believer than you must also believe that the believer has no understanding and does not seek after God, too.



1 John 1:7 does not say what you are saying here.

We know that John is referring to walking in the light in 1 John 1:7 as in reference to obedience to his commands. 1 John 2:6 says, "He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked." This lines up with the words of Jesus when He says, "The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master." (Luke 6:40).

Paul essentially says that if we love our neighbor, we fulfill the moral commands like: "Do not murder," "Do not covet," and "Do not steal," etc. (Romans 13:8-10).

This helps us to understand that "light" is in reference to obeying God's commands (or in loving one's brother), and "darkness" is in reference to disobeying God's commands (hating one's brother).

8 "Again, a new commandment I write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.
9 He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.
10 He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.
11 But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes." (1 John 2:8-11).

This means obeying God's commands is the same as walking in the light of Christ and in loving one's brother (or neighbor) and by obeying the Lord, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Again, Matthew 19:17 says if you will enter into life, keep the commandments.

Jason, I did not write romans 3:23...........
"ALL have sinned and come short of the approval of God."

That means YOU and ME and all humans including Mary the mother of Jesus. Romans 3:23 is the STANDARD of God.

One of the most important missions of Jesus while He was on earth was to make us realize that we cannot meet the standard of God in our pursuit of holiness and perfection. Jesus pointed out that violating even one law means to violate the whole commandments. Even the sinful things we contemplate in our hearts without actually doing it is equivalent to committing it in real.

Jesus wanted to make us understand that we cannot meet the standard of God and that we need Jesus himself to set things right by pouring out His blood as a perpetual sacrifice to God. We do not need to achieve perfection but we need forgiveness.

Therefore, we need Jesus Christ in order to be counted as perfect in the eyes of God.

The Greek word telos, which is often translated as 'perfect' but can equally well be translated "goal, end, or purpose." The telos of a thing is that point to which a thing yearns to be, the purpose for which a thing was built.

It does not imply that perfection has been attained, but it is the trajectory towards which the essence of a thing strives.

In the case of "Be ye perfect," it is completely legitimate to translate telos in the sense of ......
"Be that which God has designed you to be."

As Jude 24 implies, we are being made fit to stand in the presence of God - it is the end for which we are made. Jesus is exhorting us here to be that which God would have eventually be, but he is not necessarily demanding we are already there.

These are the places in which telos is used. The ESV likes to use the word 'mature' to capture this sense.

1 Cor 14:20 NA27 w/GRAMCORD......
μὴ παιδία γίνεσθε ταῖς φρεσὶν ἀλλὰ τῇ κακίᾳ νηπιάζετε, ταῖς δὲ φρεσὶν τέλειοι γίνεσθε.
( Brothers, do not be children in your thinking. Be infants in evil, but in your thinking be mature.)

Here, the tie with our behavior is explicit, contrasting the maturity of our walk with the innocence of our understanding in regards to evil.

Phil 3:15 NA27 w/GRAMCORD .....
Ὅσοι οὖν τέλειοι, τοῦτο φρονῶμεν· καὶ εἴ τι ἑτέρως φρονεῖτε, καὶ τοῦτο ὁ θεὸς ὑμῖν ἀποκαλύψει·
(Let those of us who are mature think this way, and if in anything you think otherwise, God will reveal that also to you.)

Here, maturity conveys the sense of growth - the way in which we will grow.

Col 4:12 NA27 w/GRAMCORD.......
Ἰησοῦ], πάντοτε ἀγωνιζόμενος ὑπὲρ ὑμῶν ἐν ταῖς προσευχαῖς, ἵνα σταθῆτε τέλειοι καὶ πεπληροφορημένοι ἐν παντὶ θελήματι τοῦ θεοῦ.
(that you may stand mature and fully assured in all the will of God.)

Again, like Jude, the sense of maturity, steadfastness, and being what God designed you to be.

James 1:4 NA27 w/GRAMCORD..........
ἡ δὲ ὑπομονὴ ἔργον τέλειον ἐχέτω, ἵνα ἦτε τέλειοι καὶ ὁλόκληροι ἐν μηδενὶ λειπόμενοι.
(Count it all joy, my brothers, when you meet trials of various kinds, for you know that the testing of your faith produces steadfastness. And let steadfastness have its full effect, that you may be perfect and complete, lacking in nothing.)

Here, the fullness of the text probably does the best job of conveying that perfection is a process, begun by suffering, strengthened into steadfastness, and made complete in the perfection - the end state towards which all of this is pointing.