The coming of Messiah transformed the law, not abolished it, right? So, does the coming of Messiah abolish Israel, not merely transform her?
I answered the questions you presented to Joe, and presented you with more. But you're deflecting. Why don't you just point out what part of my witnessed you believe was incorrect according to scripture as I have done to you? Or present your points more succinctly, one at a time. The only point I was addressing was your questions to Joe. Now you want to deflect the conversation to a previous post of which I have no idea what your referring to.Before we continue as I have answered your questions in my previous post can you answer my questions as well?
I answered the questions you presented to Joe, and presented you with more.
LoveGodsWord said: What makes up the OLD Covenant to you and what is the purpose of the laws in the Old Covenant?
But you're deflecting. Why don't you just point out what part of my witnessed you believe was incorrect according to scripture as I have done to you?
Or present your points more succinctly, one at a time. The only point I was addressing was your questions to Joe. Now you want to deflect the conversation to a previous post of which I have no idea what your referring to.
How about we stay on topic to the response of the questions I answered by answering my further questions. That would be a better way to function a discussion in my mind. You respond how my response was incorrect, with proof text. Since the text is the only think you seem to be relying on.
Not quite. I can agree with 90% of what you state here. However, what you appear to be missing is the witness of the Holy Spirit within your very being.
The old pointed to the new, while the new presents salvation, it doesn't just point to it, 'it is finished'. Messiah has accomplished all that he was sent to do 'in regards to sin and justification'. All that could NOT be accomplished (in this regard) in the old HAS BEEN accomplished in the new. Why would you push off what Jesus has already accomplished?
He has come, He has accomplished the work given him to do, and he has risen with all authority. Why do you seemingly downplay or disregard this, his glory?
Messiah did a work, accomplished his goal, and it is all tied to the 'new' covenant made with Israel.
Now, unlike before, the Spirit of God dwells in bodily form. Messiah as our example. "When he returns we will be like him" 1 John 3:2 Having the indwelling of the Spirit that leads us into all truth and reminds us of all that has ever been said. Where are these things in "your" witness?
You just tied the old with the new to lead us to a future salvation. Not the witness I have been given by the Spirit, nor the scriptures.
What jumped out at me from your remarks is the lack of any leading (intimate relationship) with the Spirit given all believers. And a nullification or ignorance to the actual work Yeshua our Messiah accomplished. In regards to our sins. The contrast Messiah himself made with the two covenants stand in glaring opposition to your descriptions.
I don't want a huge shell game about what the old covenant entails or means. We have scripture that lays it out plain enough for a 5th grader to comprehend. And as I said above, we also have the Spirit to lead us into all that God has ever spoke before, and to lead us into all the wisdom of God in our everyday lives. THIS is the message of the new covenant. An intimate relationship with the Father through faith in Yeshua, and by the power of the Spirit. Something NOT available till Yeshua hit the scene. Baruch HaShem! Yes, some had it sometimes. Others more. But now ALL have it. All who are his.
We who have the Spirit of God inside are the witnesses of God according to our Messiah and the Apostles.
Sin, meaning transgression of the law. So as to imply that it will be too late for those who have chosen to transgress the law over the Word of God. Which you believe is speaking and teaching all to observe 'the law'. Or it will be too late? What does justification have to do with 'works of the law'? Are you preaching their correlation?
I think it has been asked what about the OT do you think we don't understand.The OT Scriptures are the WORD of God just like the NEW Testament scriptures. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. The OT Scriptures are the foundation of the NEW. Together they are the Word of God that we are to live by. The OT Scriptures are not done away with by the NT Scriptures they are the foundation of the NEW. . Together they are the two witnesses that make up the Word of God.
Many people do not read much of the OT scriptures so they do not know what the OLD Covenant is. If you do one does not understand what the OLD Covenant is how can you understand what the NEW Covenant is?
Before we talk about the New Covenant we need to understand the Old Covenant so there is no misunderstanding we need to define what the Old Covenant is so we are talking about the same thing.
What makes up the OLD Covenant to you and what is the purpose of the laws in the Old Covenant?
The purpose of the law is to provide a legal source to punish sin or grant grace. The granting of grace voids the law.What makes up the OLD Covenant to you and what is the purpose of the laws in the Old Covenant?
So why is so much of the NT Scripture ignored? No one is trying to do away with the OT.This is partially answered above so is applicable here. The OT Scriptures are the WORD of God just like the NEW Testament scriptures. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. The OT Scriptures are the foundation of the NEW. Together they are the Word of God that we are to live by. The OT Scriptures are not done away with by the NT Scriptures they are the foundation of the NEW. Together they are the two witnesses that make up the Word of God and point to God's plans of salvation and Jesus.
What is it about the OT you don't think Shimshon, a Jew doesn't understand?Before we talk about the New Covenant we need to understand the Old Covenant so there is no misunderstanding we need to define what the Old Covenant is so we are talking about the same thing.What makes up the OLD Covenant to you and what is the purpose of the laws in the Old Covenant?
The OT doesn't give any details about salvation. It only speaks of the Redeemer.Your thinking of God's Word as one separate book they are not one separate book but two different books that bare witness one to the other. The OT is the foundation of the NT. Both have two different Covenants that both point to the same plan of salvation and comings of the Messiah. Together though they are the two great witnesses that make up the Word of God.
There's no salvation (redemption; eternal life) in the OT.God's people have always been saved the same way in both the OLD and NEW Testament, although the process was different under the two covenants. God's people in both the OLD and NEW have always only known God on a personal the same way and that is through faith.
Excellent discernment.Not quite. I can agree with 90% of what you state here. However, what you appear to be missing is the witness of the Holy Spirit within your very being. The old pointed to the new, while the new presents salvation, it doesn't just point to it, 'it is finished'. Messiah has accomplished all that he was sent to do 'in regards to sin and justification'. All that could NOT be accomplished (in this regard) in the old HAS BEEN accomplished in the new. Why would you push off what Jesus has already accomplished?
He has come, He has accomplished the work given him to do, and he has risen with all authority. Why do you seemingly downplay or disregard this, his glory?
Messiah did a work, accomplished his goal, and it is all tied to the 'new' covenant made with Israel. Now, unlike before, the Spirit of God dwells in bodily form. Messiah as our example. "When he returns we will be like him" 1 John 3:2 Having the indwelling of the Spirit that leads us into all truth and reminds us of all that has ever been said. Where are these things in "your" witness? You just tied the old with the new to lead us to a future salvation. Not the witness I have been given by the Spirit, nor the scriptures. What jumped out at me from your remarks is the lack of any leading (intimate relationship) with the Spirit given all believers. And a nullification or ignorance to the actual work Yeshua our Messiah accomplished. In regards to our sins. The contrast Messiah himself made with the two covenants stand in glaring opposition to your descriptions.
So why is so much of the NT Scripture ignored? No one is trying to do away with the OT.What is it about the OT you don't think Shimshon, a Jew doesn't understand?The OT doesn't give any details about salvation. It only speaks of the Redeemer.There's no salvation (redemption; eternal life) in the OT.
The purpose of the law is to provide a legal source to punish sin or grant grace. The granting of grace voids the law.
I think it has been asked what about the OT do you think we don't understand.
There is no salvation (eternal life) in the OT. The law tries to regulate the body and failed by design on purpose. No one can be righteous by the law.
Romans 3:21
But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
4:13
For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
9:31
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
10:4
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Galatians 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
3:21
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
Philippians 3:9
And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:
It does no good to discuss these passages with you. These passages are in direct opposition to the OT.
We have a NEW covenant which replaces the OLD covenant entirely. The new covenant isn't a continuation of the old. It is new as in unprecedented based on promises (a gift) instead of law and performance.
The law is over and done with. Luke 16:16, Romans 10:4 and Galatians 3:19.
Oh?None of the New Testament is ignored. The New Testament is in harmony with the Old Testament scriptures. These are the two great witnesses that make up the Word of God. The Old testament is the foundation of the NEW together they are the Word of God. We are to live by EVERY WORD that proceeds out of the mouth of God (Matthew 4:4) Saying that the OT does not give any details of salvation is not true whatsoever. This is the reason why I asked earlier what is the OLD Covenant because if you do not KNOW what the OLD Covenant is how can you understand what the NEW is?
What does the law do?Actually no this is not what God's Word says the Old Covenant is. What makes up the Old Covenant and what was the purpose of the Old Covenant laws?
So it appears that your contention is I haven't read the OT. On what do you base such a silly idea? No one needs to understand anything more than they need a Savior. All the information necessary is found in the NT. Faith doesn't require knowledge. Faith only requires belief.Many people do not read much of the OT scriptures so they do not know what the OLD Covenant is. If one does not understand what the OLD Covenant is how can you understand what the NEW Covenant is?
All you're attempting to do is draw me and others away from the NT. Why? I believe the evidence is you don't believe the NT.Before we talk about the New Covenant we need to understand the Old Covenant so there is no misunderstanding we need to define what the Old Covenant is so we are talking about the same thing.
What makes up the OLD Covenant to you and what is the purpose of the laws in the Old Covenant? It is not a hard question if you know the answer to it. If one does not know the answer I can understand a reluctance to answer this question.
Sorry but that isn't the OT at least in my Bible. In-other-words the OT doesn't support your idea or you would have offered it.So in your view no one is saved in the Old Testament scriptures? God's Word would disagree with you. Actually, God's Word says that the people of the Old Testament were saved in the exact same way as we are in the NEW testament and that is by FAITH (Hebrews 11)
Hmm! your words are carefully selected. your posting history proves you believe saved by faith (not true) plus keeping your version of the law aka ten commandments specifically the 4th. So you clearly promote salvation by works of the law. Jesus isn't enough.No one here is saying that anyone is saved by the works of the law. We are saved by GRACE through FAITH and not of ourselves, it is a GIFT of GOD and not of WORKS lest any man should boast (Eph 2:8).
This is clear double speak. What fruit of obedience to what did the thief on the cross have? Romans 6:23 says salvation is a gift. You believe you must earn it. Then it's not a gift. I just don't understand why you must continue to condemn and lock others out that refuse to accept your false doctrine with Hebrews 10:26-27. Being that it's in this forum section and who you are can only mean one thing.However God's Word says; if your FAITH does not have the FRUIT of OBEDEINCE then you are still in your SINS and have rejected the GIFT of God's dear Son (Romans 6:23; Hebrews 10:26-27).
Here you condemn based on the fact the law isn't observed, specifically the 4th of the ten. There's no such requirement found in the NT to keep the law.If your tree has no fruit then it is cast down and thrown into the fire (Matthew 7:12-23) And now also the ax is laid to the root of the trees: therefore every tree which brings not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire (Matthew 3:10).
You demonstrate disrespect for the rules you said you would go by to participate here. And you want us to believe you have respect for the Scripture specifically the law which you don't keep without changing it to suit your ideas. It's no small wonder why the unregenerate are so hard to reach with the Gospel. Religion does not great favor to the Gospel.If your FAITH does not have fruit then it is dead and will not save you (James 2:18; 20; 26)
God gives us Grace for Obedience to the FAITH not as a liscence to commit SIN...
What more proof is needed to prove you don't accept the NT.Romans 1
5, By whom we have received GRACE and apostleship, FOR OBEDIENCE TO THE FAITH among all nations, for his name:
If God's LAW Abolished by FAITH?
Romans 3
31, Do we then make void the law through faith? GOD FORBID: YES, WE ESTABLISH THE LAW.
Understanding the old covenant doesn't really matter because it has been replaced and no longer has any authority over any one including the Jew. I've read the OP and don't need any of your busy work. You're doing nothing more than demanding agreement or go to hell.Actually that is not true. These passages are in harmony with the Old Testament. This is why I asked you and some others earlier what is the Old Covenant. If you do not know what the Old Covenant is how can you understand what the NEW Covenant means? As shown above already God's people are saved the same way they have always been saved and that is by FAITH (Hebrews 11). The only thing that has changed now is that the shadow have been fulfilled in Christ. (Please read the OP it seems you have not read it, linked)
You refuse to admit what those passages admit looking for a specific word and phrase. Ephesians 2:15 takes care of your objection.It seems Jesus and the apostles disagree with your interpretation of the scriptures that God's LAW is abolished. None of the scriptures you quote in Luke 16:16, Romans 10:4 and Galatians 3:19 say that God's LAW (10 commandments) is Abolished they say that God's LAW leads the SINNER to the Savior (Jesus) because we are all Sinners in need of a Savior. This is the meaning of "end of the law"
If sin is wrong doing, I've knowledge of sin by a leather belt and current civil laws. So the only one you can point out is the 4th which isn't about wrong doing. It's clearly about ceremonial remembrance. Since I've been delivered from the law, it was never given to gentiles and isn't found as a requirement in NT for salvation, you've got nothing for support.Law>>>>>>Sinner>>>>>>>>Christ (end)
If you have NO LAW then you have no KNOLEDGE of SIN. If you have no KNOWLEDGE of SIN then you have NO NEED OF A Savior. If you have NO NEED OF A SAVIOUR you have NO SALVATION. If you have NO SALVATION you are LOST and still in your SINS.
Nice empty threat to bring fear and compliance to something that has no jurisdiction over the Christian. See 1 Timothy 1:9.Sin will keep all who practice it OUT of God's KINGDOM (Hebrews 10:26-27; James 2:8-12)
Yes the Apostles disagree with me by writing
I simply can't believe you want to say God winks at sin...............
In times of ignorance God winks at but now ,<when a KNOWLEDGE of the truth has come> calls all men everywhere to REPENT (FOLLOW) (Acts 17:30-31).
I'm sorry for you because of your refusal to believe the truth. You've been quoted all the supporting passages and disregard them.There is not one scripture in all of God's Word that says that God's 4th Commandment is now ABOLISHED and we are now commanded to KEEP Sunday as a Holy day.
You keep trying to threaten me with eternal damnation over something that has no jurisdiction. Why? Isn't it because you refuse to accept the complete NT (covenant)?God's 4th commandment is one of the ten (Exodus 20:8-11) If we knowingly break it when God asks us not to we stand guilty before God of committing sin (James 2:8-12). If we do not seek him in repentance and forgiveness we are in danger of the Judgement (Hebrews 10:26-27)
What does the law do?
LoveGodsWord said: ↑
Actually no this is not what God's Word says the Old Covenant is. What makes up the Old Covenant and what was the purpose of the Old Covenant laws?
Oh?
Please explain Luke 16:16, 24:44; Romans 8:14, 10:4; Galatians 3:19, 4:30; I Timothy 1:9; Hebrews 8:6, 10:9