Saved by Faith or grace?

[Wordkeeper]

The Holy Spirit is our "Helper".

The Holy Spirit helps by informing.

If the Holy Spirit helps by transforming, giving strength, giving power, then the Spirit failed in the case of Israel, Ananias, Sapphira, Simon Magus and the wedding guest.?

They failed in BELIEF, BELIEF, BELIEF.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.

 

[truefiction1]

The Holy Spirit helps by informing.

If the Holy Spirit helps by transforming, giving strength, giving power, then the Spirit failed in the case of Israel, Ananias, Sapphira, Simon Magus and the wedding guest.?

They failed in BELIEF, BELIEF, BELIEF.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.

You may be angry with me all you want for not agreeing with you. But how can you be angry with the Word of God which does not agree with you?

Look here: "Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit." (2 Corinthians 3:17-18)

BELIEF, BELIEF, BELIEF counts for nothing if it is belief without repentance. Belief without repentance is "faith without works". Faith without works does not bring salvation because it does bring the Holy Spirit. "Even the demons believe, and tremble" (James 2:19).

The devil believes. But the devil does not receive the Holy Spirit because the devil will not repent and be filled with the Holy Spirit. The devil does not want to be filled with the Holy Spirit. The devil does not want to enter "God's rest", which is the same thing as "being filled with the Holy Spirit". To be "filled with the Holy Spirit" is "to enter into God's rest".

Israel, Ananias, Sapphira, Simon Magus, the wedding guest, and anybody else that does not "REPENT" (that is they do not combine belief with works of faith) do not enter God's rest. They didn't want to be filled with the Holy Spirit. They wanted to stay "filled with the pleasures of sin" instead. Because they loved sinful pleasure and themselves more than they loved God, they rejected the Holy Spirit. They preferred the fellowship of demons over Communion with God.

 

[truefiction1]

They failed in BELIEF, BELIEF, BELIEF.

Hebrews 3:19
So we see that because of their unbelief they were not able to enter his rest.

They failed to receive and be "transformed", "informed", "empowered", "sanctified", "freed", etcetera... by the Holy Spirit, because they "CHOSE" not to "BELIEVE AND REPENT of all sin". Belief without repentance of sin is the belief (faith) of demons, and this sort of faith cannot save because it doesn't open the door for the Holy Spirit to enter in.

The Holy Spirit saves. Belief with works of faith is the door through which the Holy Spirit enters into Communion with us. Grace saves. Grace is the Holy Spirit. Grace comes into us through our True belief (faith). Faith is the "Door".

"For it is by grace you have been saved through faith." (Ephesians 2:8)

Faith alone cannot save. To be saved is to be restored to Eternal Life in Communion (oneness) with God. This Eternal Communion is in the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit does this. It is in the Holy Spirit that our salvation is. "The Kingdom of Heaven is "righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit" (Romans 14:17).

He who is filled with the Holy Spirit is in possession of the Kingdom of Heaven and is, therefore, SAVED. The Holy Spirit, in us, is our saving grace, through faith.

 

[truefiction1]

Revelation does not save, by itself. It was "revealed" to the corrupt Pharisees and scribes that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. His mighty works and miracles done by the Power of God, the Holy Spirit, were enough evidence to convict anybody of the fact that He is the Son of God, come into the world to save it. They were exposed to the same "revelations" as those who believed were. It was because of the hardness of there hearts that they "chose" not to believe. We are responsible for all our choices.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Revelation does not save, by itself. It was "revealed" to the corrupt Pharisees and scribes that Jesus was the Christ, the Son of God. His mighty works and miracles done by the Power of God, the Holy Spirit, were enough evidence to convict anybody of the fact that He is the Son of God, come into the world to save it. They were exposed to the same "revelations" as those who believed were. It was because of the hardness of there hearts that they "chose" not to believe. We are responsible for all our choices.

Absolutely. It is belief and obedience which saves. Belief is wearing the wedding garment, obedience is picking up the Cross and following what Christ did. That is the gospel, 1 Cor 15. God can provide protection and provision even against the greatest enemy, death. The resurrection is the wedding feast.

So do not be afraid to step out and give up on the world system and follow God. But be sure you can bear the danger, because if you chicken out midway like Ananias and Sapphire, you will be subject to ridicule. Here are people who thought they had the gumption and were not able to follow through, could not resist the temptation to go back to idolatry, world ways. Ditto Simon Magus. I'm sure there were many others, but the writers of Scripture chose two cases that described the situations in which people commonly failed.

 

[truefiction1]

Absolutely. It is belief and obedience which saves. Belief is wearing the wedding garment, obedience is picking up the Cross and following what Christ did. That is the gospel, 1 Cor 15. God can provide protection and provision even against the greatest enemy, death. The resurrection is the wedding feast.

So do not be afraid to step out and give up on the world system and follow God. But be sure you can bear the danger, because if you chicken out midway like Ananias and Sapphire, you will be subject to ridicule. Here are people who thought they had the gumption and were not able to follow through, could not resist the temptation to go back to idolatry, world ways. Ditto Simon Magus. I'm sure there were many others, but the writers of Scripture chose two cases that described the situations in which people commonly failed.

What you call "the world system", the Church has been calling "enslavement in sin" or "the sinful passions". The Church would make no distinction between Belief and Obedience (taking up our Cross and following Christ). Belief without obedience is "dead faith", and leads to perdition. The wedding feast is Communion with God (our Father), through Christ (His Word), and in the Holy Spirit (I suppose you could equate this with the Resurrection Life).

However, there is another thing that the parable of the wedding feast alludes to, and that is the ritual of Holy Communion in the Church, which if practiced in true repentance by the help of the Holy Spirit becomes actual, Living, mystical Communion with God through the body and blood of Christ. Not discerning the body when partaking of Communion, however, is the eating and drinking of condemnation onto oneself. Not discerning the body of Christ in Communion is the same as showing up to the feast without the right clothing, as in the parable of the wedding guest without a wedding garment.

 

[Wordkeeper]

What you call "the world system", the Church has been calling "enslavement in sin" or "the sinful passions". The Church would make no distinction between Belief and Obedience (taking up our Cross and following Christ). Belief without obedience is "dead faith", and leads to perdition. The wedding feast is Communion with God (our Father), through Christ (His Word), and in the Holy Spirit (I suppose you could equate this with the Resurrection Life).

However, there is another thing that the parable of the wedding feast alludes to, and that is the ritual of Holy Communion in the Church, which if practiced in true repentance by the help of the Holy Spirit becomes actual, Living, mystical Communion with God through the body and blood of Christ. Not discerning the body when partaking of Communion, however, is the eating and drinking of condemnation onto oneself. Not discerning the body of Christ in Communion is the same as showing up to the feast without the right clothing, as in the parable of the wedding guest without a wedding garment.

So the Holy Spirit presents a challenge, which must be obeyed. It is not an energy that transforms.

In your doctrine, what is the challenge, the tower that must be built, the opposing army that must be fought?

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-33).

 

[truefiction1]

So the Holy Spirit presents a challenge, which must be obeyed. It is not an energy that transforms.

In your doctrine, what is the challenge, the tower that must be built, the opposing army that must be fought?

“If anyone comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple. Whoever does not bear his own cross and come after me cannot be my disciple. For which of you, desiring to build a tower, does not first sit down and count the cost, whether he has enough to complete it? Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who see it begin to mock him, saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ Or what king, going out to encounter another king in war, will not sit down first and deliberate whether he is able with ten thousand to meet him who comes against him with twenty thousand? And if not, while the other is yet a great way off, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace. So therefore, any one of you who does not renounce all that he has cannot be my disciple" (Luke 14:26-33).

The "challenge" for the Orthodox Christian faithful is mostly described like this: to remain in Communion with God in every moment (i.e. in the Holy Spirit, or in God's Grace) by not allowing any evil thought or desire to carry one's attention away from constant awareness of God's "all-knowing" presence in one's heart. This is accomplished by "praying unceasingly" for the help of God and by studying the Scriptures, so as to know the sayings of Christ in order to obey righteousness and resist evil thoughts and desires. What's left can be described as discerning the will of God for one's life and obeying it, for no other reason than to please God. Good deeds are to be done for Christ's sake, and not for any lesser reason, because only good deeds done for Christ's sake lead to receiving more Grace (i.e. more of the Holy Spirit within oneself).

But all of this that we do, we just name it with one simple word: Repentance.

For repentance invites, and brings the Holy Spirit, or Grace to reside in one's whole person (spirit, soul, mind, and body), and leads to the continual transformation of the whole person into the image and likeness of God. This is the very definition of the Christian Life -- repentance.

 

[Bible2+]

Wordkeeper said in post #477:

The Holy Spirit did not transform.

Note that God's Holy Spirit does transform Christians. For:

2 Corinthians 3:18 . . . we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour . . .

 

[Bible2+]

truefiction1 said in post #478:

The Holy Spirit (Grace) is the power a person receives in order to live according to the Life of repentance.

That's right.

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

*******

truefiction1 said in post #479:

The True Faith that continuously opens the door for the Holy Spirit to enter into us is "Faith with works (works of repentance)".

That's right.

Acts 26:20 . . . repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

Here, as in Matthew 3:8, the original Greek word (G0514) translated as "meet" can mean "suitable" or "worthy" (Matthew 10:38). Note, for example, how Zacchaeus' repentance would be shown by his works (Luke 19:8).

*******

truefiction1 said in post #488:

This is the very definition of the Christian Life -- repentance.

Repentance is crucial to our salvation from hell:

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

This shows that Christians, who have been sanctified by Jesus Christ's sacrificial blood (Hebrews 10:29), which sanctification requires faith (Acts 26:18b, cf. Romans 3:25-26), can, after they get saved, wrongly employ their free will to commit sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26). By doing this, these Christians are unwittingly trampling on Jesus and His sacrificial blood, and doing despite unto the Spirit of grace (Hebrews 10:29), turning the grace of God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:4), so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20-22). Even though Jesus' sacrificial blood is sufficient to forgive all sins (1 John 2:2), it actually forgives only the sins of Christians which are past (Romans 3:25-26), as in sins which have been repented from, and confessed to God (1 John 1:9,7). Jesus' sacrificial blood does not remit unrepentant sins (Hebrews 10:26-29). So a Christian can ultimately lose his salvation, if he wrongly employs his free will to commit unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46).

Some Christians say that Hebrews 10:26-29 is not for Christians. But note that the immediate context of Hebrews 10:26-29 is Hebrews 10:25, which is addressing "we" Christians. Hebrews 10:25-29 is the same idea as Hebrews 3:13: Christians need to gather together and exhort each other, so that no Christian will fall into any unrepentant sin. For any unrepentant sin will ultimately result in the loss of salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

One way that a Christian could come to desire to commit sin without repentance, would be if he finds a particular sin to be very pleasurable, so pleasurable and so fulfilling (in the short term) that he continues in it over time until his heart becomes hardened by the deceitfulness of sin (Hebrews 3:13), to where his love for God grows cold because of the abundance of iniquity (Matthew 24:12), to where he quenches the Spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:19), to where he sears his conscience as with a hot iron (1 Timothy 4:2), to where he becomes so infatuated with his sin that he can no longer endure the sound doctrine of the Bible (such as the doctrine of Hebrews 10:26-29), but instead latches onto a mistaken, man-made teaching which contradicts the Bible (2 Timothy 4:3-4), such as the mistaken teaching which assures Christian that there is no way that they can ever lose their salvation, even if they sin without repentance.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Note that God's Holy Spirit does transform Christians. For:

2 Corinthians 3:18 . . . we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour . . .

The Holy Spirit does not transform, overpower the worldly impulses of the believer. The Spirit informs, teaches the believer that God will protect and provide, even if he lays down his life for others. This is called cleansing. Removing the lies of the world, which tells us, as it told Israel, that she would die and her children would be slaves. It is left to the freewill of the believer to so lay down his life. His trust is that if God protected and preserved His Son, He will act similarly with those who are in Christ, to share the same rewards, be a blessing to lead others into Rest, just as Joshua, a type of Jesus led others into the Promised Land, a type of the Holy City, the new Adam, the New Mankind, God prepared for us.

Ephesians 5:25-27
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her, 26so that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word,27that He might present to Himself the church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she would be holy and blameless.

 

[Wordkeeper]

The "challenge" for the Orthodox Christian faithful is mostly described like this: to remain in Communion with God in every moment (i.e. in the Holy Spirit, or in God's Grace) by not allowing any evil thought or desire to carry one's attention away from constant awareness of God's "all-knowing" presence in one's heart. This is accomplished by "praying unceasingly" for the help of God and by studying the Scriptures, so as to know the sayings of Christ in order to obey righteousness and resist evil thoughts and desires. What's left can be described as discerning the will of God for one's life and obeying it, for no other reason than to please God. Good deeds are to be done for Christ's sake, and not for any lesser reason, because only good deeds done for Christ's sake lead to receiving more Grace (i.e. more of the Holy Spirit within oneself).

But all of this that we do, we just name it with one simple word: Repentance.

For repentance invites, and brings the Holy Spirit, or Grace to reside in one's whole person (spirit, soul, mind, and body), and leads to the continual transformation of the whole person into the image and likeness of God. This is the very definition of the Christian Life -- repentance.

If the challenge is to remain in communion, fellowship, repent, what are the terms of peace, the other option, if you cannot be in communion?

Is it to refuse repentance, salvation?

 

[truefiction1]

If the challenge is to remain in communion, fellowship, repent, what are the terms of peace, the other option, if you cannot be in communion?

Is it to refuse repentance, salvation?

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking me here.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you're asking me here.

Luke 14:28-32
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31“Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

Becoming as disciple, staying in communion with Christ, requires sacrifice, is a challenge.

What is the alternative if a believer cannot pay the price? Can he refuse to become a disciple, avoid being in communion, ask for a lesser challenge?

 

[truefiction1]

Luke 14:28-32
28“For which one of you, when he wants to build a tower, does not first sit down and calculate the cost to see if he has enough to complete it? 29“Otherwise, when he has laid a foundation and is not able to finish, all who observe it begin to ridicule him, 30saying, ‘This man began to build and was not able to finish.’ 31“Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? 32“Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

Becoming as disciple, staying in communion with Christ, requires sacrifice, is a challenge.

What is the alternative if a believer cannot pay the price? Can he refuse to become a disciple, avoid being in communion, ask for a lesser challenge?

I think that Christ answers that in this way: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

I think that if we want Life we'll strive as best we can to enter through the narrow gate of sacrifice. Here is another saying of His that points to the same thing: "Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it." (Luke 17:33)

The "terms of peace" I would ask for, as an Orthodox Christian, is to strive to serve God, discern His will and do it, and to pray for mercy for myself and for others -- even those who act badly towards me or my loved ones. We will mess up and fall due to weakness and the low amount of Grace in us, but we should humbly ask for mercy (help, or more Grace) and carry on with our service to God. We who persevere to the end in this spiritual warfare will be saved. It's repentance that matters most. The Publican who beat his breast and couldn't even raise his eye to heaven as he prayed "God be merciful to me, a sinner" was justified, while the Pharisee who only felt he was righteous before God was deluded by demons and his own sinful passions of pride and vainglory, and so was not a just (justified) man.

The terms of peace that I will ask for will be expressed repeatedly in the following words: "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

 

[Wordkeeper]

I think that Christ answers that in this way: "Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the way that leads to life, and only a few find it." (Matthew 7:13-14)

I think that if we want Life we'll strive as best we can to enter through the narrow gate of sacrifice. Here is another saying of His that points to the same thing: "Whoever tries to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life will preserve it." (Luke 17:33)

The "terms of peace" I would ask for, as an Orthodox Christian, is to strive to serve God, discern His will and do it, and to pray for mercy for myself and for others -- even those who act badly towards me or my loved ones. We will mess up and fall due to weakness and the low amount of Grace in us, but we should humbly ask for mercy (help, or more Grace) and carry on with our service to God. We who persevere to the end in this spiritual warfare will be saved. It's repentance that matters most. The Publican who beat his breast and couldn't even raise his eye to heaven as he prayed "God be merciful to me, a sinner" was justified, while the Pharisee who only felt he was righteous before God was deluded by demons and his own sinful passions of pride and vainglory, and so was not a just (justified) man.

The terms of peace that I will ask for will be expressed repeatedly in the following words: "Lord, Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on me, a sinner."

What is the tower that you are promising to complete?

What relaxing of requirements can you ask for if you cannot complete the tower because you don´t have enough resources?

What army are you setting out to defeat? What
terms of peace can you ask for if you are not having enough strength to succeed in your task?

 

[truefiction1]

What is the tower that you are promising to complete?

What relaxing of requirements can you ask for if you cannot complete the tower because you don´t have enough resources?

What army are you setting out to defeat? What
terms of peace can you ask for if you are not having enough strength to succeed in your task?

There's no such thing as not having enough strength to succeed in my task. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me". (Phillipians 4:13) The army I'm setting out to defeat is that of the evil one, for "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12) The tower I'm building is the Church. I'm but one of the stones who'll be fitted into this building.

 

[Wordkeeper]

There's no such thing as not having enough strength to succeed in my task. "I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me". (Phillipians 4:13) The army I'm setting out to defeat is that of the evil one, for "our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the authorities, against the powers of this world’s darkness, and against the spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms." (Ephesians 6:12) The tower I'm building is the Church. I'm but one of the stones who'll be fitted into this building.

Then why does Jesus say we should ask for terms of peace if we are not confident of completing the task?

Why does Jesus say we should not start the task if we don't have enough resources, else we will be "ridiculed" for being over confident?

What are the terms of peace? If salvation cannot be completed, what is the meaning of "not starting", the option Jesus says to choose instead?

 

[truefiction1]

Then why does Jesus say we should ask for terms of peace if we are not confident of completing the task?

Why does Jesus say we should not start the task if we don't have enough resources, else we will be "ridiculed" for being over confident?

What are the terms of peace? If salvation cannot be completed, what is the meaning of "not starting", the option Jesus says to choose instead?

I suspect you're reading too much into the parables (i.e. taking all parts of them too literally). The point Christ is making through them is that when a person is considering being His disciple, they must become fully aware of what "the cost of discipleship is", and willing to pay it. One must be clear: “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26-27) and also "any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:33) He is not saying that a person can agree to some "lesser" level of commitment and still be saved.

 

[Wordkeeper]

I suspect you're reading too much into the parables (i.e. taking all parts of them too literally). The point Christ is making through them is that when a person is considering being His disciple, they must become fully aware of what "the cost of discipleship is", and willing to pay it. One must be clear: “If anyone comes to Me and does not hate his father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters—yes, even his own life—he cannot be My disciple. And whoever does not carry his cross and follow Me cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:26-27) and also "any one of you who does not give up everything he has cannot be My disciple." (Luke 14:33) He is not saying that a person can agree to some "lesser" level of commitment and still be saved.

It's not reading too much. The text is clear :

Luke 14:32
32“Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends a delegation and asks for terms of peace.

If you don't have the resources, don't start building.

If you don't have a strong army, don't go out to battle.

If you don't have the courage, don't be my disciple?

Does that mean I can choose to not believe Jesus, ask for mercy, and not perish?