Are professed Christians who deliberately practice sin saved?

Old Trapper

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Murder is killing of the innocent.
Who is innocent?

God Bless,
SBC

Interesting twist on the definition of murder. Christ said hatred is murder. However, I know of no place where murder is limited to that of killing the innocent. If I go out, and kill a rapist (vigilantism) is that self defense, or some other form of justifiable homicide?
 
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Alexpro

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I meditated on the word
Great passage. Please note my emphasis with a change in color.This isn't talking about the covenant law issued at Sinai.​
Agreed there's nothing wrong with eating meat or keeping the sabbath. You're really trying to force the sabbath as a requirement on the Christian. There's no such requirement in the new covenant. I'm very familiar with your argument. You're presenting a very classic SDA argument that can't be missed. This was your intent from the OP.
Jesus kept the Sabbath and accepted passover. I would follow the instructions of the Holy Spirit. Man will tell you what to do like the pheresis did in Jesus day. Where dealing with the same thing but in a different form. If people don't want to eat meat that's up to them. The Old Testament tells us certain animals are unclean and we shouldn't eat them.
 
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Alexpro

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I know you were. You also refuse to consider Luke 24:44 a direct reference to your verse.Don't understand how this relates to the discussion.
Its a great scripture. I really like that verse.
 
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1stcenturylady

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I'm reasonably sure what she meant. I can't state it without her admission. If I did I would be sanctioned for accusing of something that doesn't exist. I know murder, lying, adultery are sin. She must be talking about something I don't know. Otherwise she is making a general statement accusing others she doesn't know. Even if she did this isn't the place to make public statements about it. This is bating and against the rules. Supporting her argument with a quote listing sins (works of the flesh) makes no sense if this isn't the case.

I followed this back using the arrows, and she quoted scripture. What about those scripture don't you agree with? She wasn't doing any of the things you are accusing her of. When you provide scripture, we should all judge ourselves against them. How can you fault Scripture???

Yes, we are not under the law, but why? It is because we are under the law of the Spirit. The Spirit does not sin, and with the Spirit guiding us - we don't either. But that is ONLY if we actually have been given the Spirit. In no way does following the Spirit give us a license to sin.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Ahhhh......my worthy foe.....finally we agree! Now, if you will just leave it right there.....I will quit bringing up “ sins of omission” lol ! It should be noted that OSAS monsters like me believe the exact same way.I am a free man in Christ and for this unmerited favor He has granted us you had better believe that if I abuse that freedom God will chastise me.He will not damn me.That is the purpose of chastisement—— temporal punishment here instead of the eternal punishment the world will endure.God bless you

What about those (not you obviously; you're perfect) who accepted Christ as a child, but now prefer to live their life abusing it? They have no power over sin. Did they receive the Holy Spirit when they accepted Christ as a child? How does one in OSAS actually know they are saved?
 
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jmldn2

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Then in your opinion we are obligated to the law covenant. Fortunately the Bible disagrees with you on this.

8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;

9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust. I Tim 1

bugkiller

And how does my post say we are obligated to the law? We are obligated to Jesus Christ and His example. We are to search for perfection, yet we know as long as we live in this earthly body we will never be able to reach that goal. I've explained why. No need to go over that again.
 
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1stcenturylady

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Good question. I do believe she brought it up.

bugkiller

Good grief, you guys. Alexpro brought up the Sabbath, and she told him we are under the New Covenant, not the old, and used that verse. Stop accusing her! You two are the ones breaking the rules.
 
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jmldn2

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Correct we live in a body of flesh. Incorrect that body is never redeemed. Our soul is redeemed and born again. The Christian is dead to the law (Rom5-7) and already passed the judgment (JN 5:24)

bugkiller

So? Where have I denied our soul is redeemed and born again? Our deeds, works, service will be judged whether good or bad.
 
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Alexpro

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The Law is our tutor to lead us to Christ. Under the new covenant, we have the Holy Spirit within us to remind us to follow God's commandments:

But before faith came, we were kept in custody under the law, being shut up to the faith which was later to be revealed. Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor. For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus. (Galatians 3:26 NASB)

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; and I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to observe My ordinances. (Ezekiel 36:26 NASB)​

There is nothing wrong with eating or not eating meat, keeping or not keeping the sabbath, as long as you do so according to faith:

One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. (Romans 14:5-6 NASB)

I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. (Romans 14:14-15 NASB)
I agree with you a 100% the law is our tutor and follow the Holy Spirit. I follow the Holy Spirit.
I celebrate Passover some Christians don't, that's up to the individual if they wants to celebrate it or not.
Jesus excepted Passover and the 12 deciples did as well. I stopped listening to man and started listening more to the Holy Spirit and the Old Testament tells us certain animals are unclean to eat like pigs. I believe a hundred percent pigs are the worse thing you can eat.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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What about those (not you obviously; you're perfect) who accepted Christ as a child, but now prefer to live their life abusing it? They have no power over sin. Did they receive the Holy Spirit when they accepted Christ as a child? How does one in OSAS actually know they are saved?


Wow....i guess it is true....” no good deed goes unpunished” my post to you was as friendly as could be, even threw in a little levity to show that I consider you a friend even though we disagree on some things. And after I clearly stated that God has chastised me when I do wrong......you accuse me of thinking I am “ perfect “. I expected better from you.
 
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Catherineanne

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It is a privillage. Christians need to keep their garments clean, otherwise it is OUT! OUT! OUT!

There is no Scripture to justify any claim that salvation once won can be lost. Either a person is saved or else their salvation was always a fake. There are no other options.

An act of God cannot be undone by an act of man. It simply cannot be done because God is God; we are not. Putting it simply, God does not disown any of his children; we may choose to disown him but he will never disown us.

See the Parable of the Prodigal Son for further details.

Luke 15:11-32
 
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1stcenturylady

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Wow....i guess it is true....” no good deed goes unpunished” my post to you was as friendly as could be, even threw in a little levity to show that I consider you a friend even though we disagree on some things. And after I clearly stated that God has chastised me when I do wrong......you accuse me of thinking I am “ perfect “. I expected better from you.

Sorry, mine was meant to be friendly too. From our posts, I consider you to be a true Christian, and perfect. :) You've learned from your chastisements, as I have. Any night you go to bed with a clear conscience, you're perfect - at least until tomorrow. That's what it meant when Jesus said, "Be perfect." It is present tense. Paul said, "I die daily." Tomorrow is another day. So you are perfect, and so am I. My concern is for those who don't go to bed with a clear conscience, who live in darkness, and still claim they have fellowship with God. So, please forgive my lack of including a smiley face to show intent. I wasn't trying to be rude. But maybe you don't see being perfect, the same way I do. It was a compliment to you.

So my question remains about people in general.

What about those who accepted Christ as a child, but now prefer to live their life abusing it? They have no power over sin. Did they receive the Holy Spirit when they accepted Christ as a child? How does one in OSAS actually know they are saved if they remain in sin? (And again, I am not referring to you. You're perfect in my eyes :))
 
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The Times

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The verse is not about the future.

bugkiller

The Eastern Orthodox say this, after a witness biologically dies and departs from this temporal realm. This tradition originates from the 1st Century, directly from Apostolic instructions, before Rome and before Constantine.
 
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The Times

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There is no Scripture to justify any claim that salvation once won can be lost. Either a person is saved or else their salvation was always a fake. There are no other options.

Many places Jesus calls the saved a servant, who becomes complacent to have been apportioned their place with unbelievers. In another it confirms they were saved when saying Lord Lord have we not done this wonderful work in your name, yet the Lord casts them away and calls them evildoers. Obviously, for them to do those miracles they must have been once saved.

An act of God cannot be undone by an act of man. It simply cannot be done because God is God; we are not.

God does not force himself on people or violates their free will to choose the world instead of God. Salvation is conditional unto biological death.

Putting it simply, God does not disown any of his children; we may choose to disown him but he will never disown us

It is about the sons disowning their parents. The Prodigal Son's free will to be separated from his father was not violated. The father honoured his son's choice and never forced him to stay.

See the Parable of the Prodigal Son for further details

I have, the father honoured his son's choice and it was the son's choice and not the father's that sealed the son's fate. Had the son choose to be separated from his father, then he would definitely die. The moral of the story is the turning moment, when the son made the choice to turn from his ways and to repent. Had he not, then the father would not have interfered.
 
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Blood Bought 1953

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Sorry, mine was meant to be friendly too. From our posts, I consider you to be a true Christian, and perfect. :) You've learned from your chastisements, as I have. Any night you go to bed with a clear conscience, you're perfect - at least until tomorrow. That's what it meant when Jesus said, "Be perfect." It is present tense. Paul said, "I die daily." Tomorrow is another day. So you are perfect, and so am I. My concern is for those who don't go to bed with a clear conscience, who live in darkness, and still claim they have fellowship with God. So, please forgive my lack of including a smiley face to show intent. I wasn't trying to be rude. But maybe you don't see being perfect, the same way I do. It was a compliment to you.

So my question remains about people in general.

What about those who accepted Christ as a child, but now prefer to live their life abusing it? They have no power over sin. Did they receive the Holy Spirit when they accepted Christ as a child? How does one in OSAS actually know they are saved if they remain in sin? (And again, I am not referring to you. You're perfect in my eyes :))
1


Glad you clarified that. I was very shocked because it did not sound like the century lady that I have come to know. I love giving you and brinny a hard time even though we do not always agree.
I am not sure about children although there is a belief about an “age of accountability” that some people extend to the age of 30. I seriously doubt that one.God will deal with them in a perfect manner I am sure.
OSAS Believers like me Believe that all of us sin every hour of every day.Not necessarily in deed but in thought for sure. I think it was Dear Abby that said “ we all have secret thoughts that would shame Hell”. Combine that with the sins of omission (not doing the good deeds we could and should be doing , like inviting the poor strangers into our homes) and it’s clear nobody is even close to reaching God’s standard,which is perfection.Grace to cover the sins we don’t even know about is the only solution while God trains us and shapes us thereby finishing the work He started. OSAS subscribers think that We are all bankrupt sinners before God and need tons of grace up until the day we die , even though our behaviour becomes more like Christ’s as God changes us from the inside in response to our faith.We feel that the only difference between us and your camp is that we are all sinners to a certain degree every hour of the day.We know it and admit it.You don’t.All my sins were put on the cross.Undeservedly.I am far from perfection,but God sees me now through “ the spectacles of Christ” and reckons me as perfect because I believe in His Gospel. 1cor15:1-4 Paul says if we believe it God will save us.To deny the simple Godpel is to call God a liar.God is still a jealous God. Be careful with what you do with His Gospel.It is what you will be judged by, not our pitiful attempts at perfection in these sinful flesh bodies.Faith plus nothing for our Salvation.....just like Abraham.It worked for him.....it will work for us if we let it.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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What did I misinterpret?

Here's the list. I might have missed some, but none of them are true:
You're really trying to force the sabbath as a requirement on the Christian.
I'm very familiar with your argument. You're presenting a very classic SDA argument that can't be missed. This was your intent from the OP.
You seem to be promoting the law.
Are you really here accusing others of perpetual on going sin in general?
With out such an explanation you're really calling people here dogs and sorcerers committing some specific sin and practicing a lie. What lie would posters here be practicing?
And aren't you really seeking converts among Christians the verse you quoted doesn't call Christians sinners?
What sin do you want me to be aware of especially since you don't know me?
You ask for specific words.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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You leave things wide open. This puts everyone in a guessing game. You ask for specific words. Are you really here accusing others of perpetual on going sin in general? I must ask for what purpose because it makes no sense. That would only inflame others including those not guilty.
Let me repeat again. This is a thread in a theology subforum, we are here to discuss about theology, not making accusations. If you have no interest in participating in the theological discussions in this thread other than being disruptive and distracting from the topic, it would be appreciated if you would kindly ignore this thread.

I would also like to remind you of the following Christian forum rules:
Harassment
  • Be considerate and do not make another member's experience on this site miserable. This includes making false accusations or persistently attacking them in the open forums.
  • Respect another member's request to cease personal contact.
 
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JIMINZ

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Why or why not? Please explain with the support of the scripture.

EDIT 1: Let me rephrase the question to make it clearer. The question is NOT whether a Christian needs to be sinless in order to be saved, but rather, whether a truly born-again Christian with the Holy Spirit living within them would choose to deliberately commit a sin over and over again, with no intention to make effort to eliminate that sin from their life.

EDIT 2: To clarify what sin I am referring to:
Any sin that is considered to be sin in the New Testament under the new covenant (NOT Jewish laws about food, days, festivals), such as but not limited to:

Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. (Galatians 5:19-21 NKJV)​


For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries. (Hebrews 10:26-27 NASB)

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? (Romans 6:1-2 NASB)

What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? (Romans 6:15-16 NASB)

No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, make sure no one deceives you; the one who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; for the devil has sinned from the beginning. The Son of God appeared for this purpose, to destroy the works of the devil. No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. (1 John 3:6-9 NASB)
.
How could a person who chooses to deliberately commit a sin over and over again, with no intention of eliminating that sin from their life, ever claim to be a truly born-again Christian, with the Holy Spirit living within them?

The only person I could think of doing such a thing would be, what Jesus has called a Tare.

Mat 13:25
But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.

Mat 13:30
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.
 
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Lily of Valleys

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I agree with you a 100% the law is our tutor and follow the Holy Spirit. I follow the Holy Spirit.
What do you think of the part which Apostle Paul also said "But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor" (Galatians 3:25)?

I celebrate Passover some Christians don't, that's up to the individual if they wants to celebrate it or not. Jesus excepted Passover and the 12 deciples did as well. I stopped listening to man and started listening more to the Holy Spirit and the Old Testament tells us certain animals are unclean to eat like pigs. I believe a hundred percent pigs are the worse thing you can eat.
If you believe that you shouldn't eat pigs, that's fine, but for others who believe that all foods are clean, that's fine too. Same with celebrating Jewish festivals.

Receive one who is weak in the faith, but not to disputes over doubtful things. For one believes he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats only vegetables. Let not him who eats despise him who does not eat, and let not him who does not eat judge him who eats; for God has received him. (Romans 14:1-3 NKJV)

It is good neither to eat meat nor drink wine nor do anything by which your brother stumbles or is offended or is made weak. Do you have faith? Have it to yourself before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because he does not eat from faith; for whatever is not from faith is sin. (Romans 14:21-23 NKJV)
 
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1stcenturylady

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Glad you clarified that. I was very shocked because it did not sound like the century lady that I have come to know. I love giving you and brinny a hard time even though we do not always agree.
I am not sure about children although there is a belief about an “age of accountability” that some people extend to the age of 30. I seriously doubt that one.God will deal with them in a perfect manner I am sure.
OSAS Believers like me Believe that all of us sin every hour of every day.Not necessarily in deed but in thought for sure. I think it was Dear Abby that said “ we all have secret thoughts that would shame Hell”. Combine that with the sins of omission (not doing the good deeds we could and should be doing , like inviting the poor strangers into our homes) and it’s clear nobody is even close to reaching God’s standard,which is perfection.Grace to cover the sins we don’t even know about is the only solution while God trains us and shapes us thereby finishing the work He started. OSAS subscribers think that We are all bankrupt sinners before God and need tons of grace up until the day we die , even though our behaviour becomes more like Christ’s as God changes us from the inside in response to our faith.We feel that the only difference between us and your camp is that we are all sinners to a certain degree every hour of the day.We know it and admit it.You don’t.All my sins were put on the cross.Undeservedly.I am far from perfection,but God sees me now through “ the spectacles of Christ” and reckons me as perfect because I believe in His Gospel. 1cor15:1-4 Paul says if we believe it God will save us.To deny the simple Godpel is to call God a liar.God is still a jealous God. Be careful with what you do with His Gospel.It is what you will be judged by, not our pitiful attempts at perfection in these sinful flesh bodies.Faith plus nothing for our Salvation.....just like Abraham.It worked for him.....it will work for us if we let it.

Thank you for accepting my apology. I wouldn't hurt you for the world. Yes, we disagree, and probably see each other with dark glasses, never actually perceiving the real beliefs of each other. For instance, you call me a legalist. To me that is a person who obeys the law in their own strength, like the Jews. I had just as many problems as they did, and found I had absolutely no strength to not yield to temptation. Then one night when I told God there was no way I could stop sinning. I told Him how many times I tried and failed, and told Him, He was stronger than I was, so if He wanted me to stop, then He had to take the temptation away. And that was the first prayer I ever prayed in 30 years that God answered. Less than a month later, God filled me to overflowing with His Spirit, and I finally had the supernatural power of the Holy Spirit to overcome sin. What He did was remove all desire to sin out of me, and replace it with love for Him.

So you see, I'm not a legalist. I just don't have any desire to break God's laws. There is a difference. Romans 8:2 shows the difference in the law and the Spirit. We are under the law of the Spirit, and a free from the law of sin and death.

Get it?
 
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