Are angels the same as demons?

[JacksBratt]

If you can acknowledge so, then it should not be a stretch to acknowledge Jude was inspired by the Holy Spirit and not the Book of Enoch. Just because truth and fiction pass on one instance does not validate fiction.

The words of the Book of Enoch are in the bible. They were good enough to be quoted by a man inspired by the Holy spirit.
Nothing in the Book of Enoch contradicts the canon.

 

[JacksBratt]

There is no scripture that says such. Where is the support for such a statement. I have argued that such a union would not create souls so when the Nephilim died there would be no disembodied souls roaming the earth. No one has argued against my post, 6 on such.

Look in your bible and note the timing of the very first demon.. They do not show up until after the flood. Angels have been around since before man. Angels can take on human form.. demons... cannot.

 

[Sanoy]

Don't be so quick to believe a snap proof. Just as Jesus was God and man, I believe in the end times when Satan is let loose he will take on flesh. This does not mean that every impure spirit referenced in scripture is a type of Genesis 6 hybrid. Sanoy, go through the NT and see how many references there are of demons to impure/evil spirits.

There is no known relevant distinction. Demons where the Shedim mentioned in Deuteronomy 32:17. They were something new that came up on the earth. If you read the entire chapter it will give you a time line for the Shedim as after the flood through verse 8. They remain undefined in the Bible, but are defined clearly in the book of Enoch.

 

[dreadnought]

Not according to biblegateway.

Bible: Revised Standard Version

 

[food4thought]

I have no scripture that says that angels cannot. I know that it does say:

Matthew 22:30 King James Version (KJV)

30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.

However, this does not say that they cannot procreate. Or that they lack the parts.

Why would God give them reproductive organs if they were never going to reproduce?

I do believe that all angels are male.

Fair enough, I can't think of a Biblical reference to a female angel.

The creator did say "let us make man in "our" image. Was the "our" referring to the trinity or all His heavenly creations?

I've always thought the Trinity was in view there.

Anyway, the bible doesn't say that angels cannot. Even when the angels came to save Lot... the towns people wanted to have sex with them. It doesn't say that they couldn't. The reason that Lot doesn't give them to the mob is because they were under his responsibility... "under the shadow of his roof".. they were his guests.

Genesis 19:8 King James Version (KJV)

8 Behold now, I have two daughters which have not known man; let me, I pray you, bring them out unto you, and do ye to them as is good in your eyes: only unto these men do nothing; for therefore came they under the shadow of my roof.

Not to be crude, but functioning male reproductive organs were not necessary for what the Sodomites had in mind...

 

[food4thought]

Read Matthew 22:30 closely to see that Jesus talks about angels in heaven. Genesis 6 is talking about a fallen angel on earth that has somehow taken on a physical body procreating with a woman. So Angels are male type even if normally in a spiritual body. Further, I think this ability for fallen angels to do so has ended. I can't say when. It was after the flood because they were still around when David killed Goliath.

How would being fallen change them into viable males? Can you produce Scripture that supports this theory?

 

[food4thought]

You must agree that there are fallen angels.

Certainly.

If God's angels are ministering spirits serving God, then impure spirits would be fallen angels serving Satan. And as you stated from scripture, demons are impure spirits.

That sounds logical...

 

[Sanoy]

There are only two references to Shedim (Strong's H7700) in the OT that I could find. There were also many references to evil/lying/deceiving rhu'ak. The NT seems to equate demons and fallen angels at times, though. Paul speaks of "the doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1), and they are sometimes referenced as being associated with idolatry (1 Corinthians 10:20-21; Revelation 9:20)... these are things I have always associated with fallen angels, not unclean spirits. Maybe I am just confused...

This is the first time I have considered this verse so I don't feel as confident as I would like in my answer. But it may be that spirits here refers to the angels or a group of deceased human kings, and demons to the spirits of Nephilim.

I think we can find a good indication of this from Eusebius.
"Thus then at length the terrestrial daemons, and 'the world-rulers' that haunt the air, and the 'spiritual hosts of wickedness,' 2 and the leader of them all in malice, were regarded among all men as the greatest of gods; the memory also of those long dead came to be thought worthy of greater worship." (Praeparatio Evangelica book 5 chapter 2. )
I take the world rulers to be angels. I am not sure of what 'spiritual hosts of wickedness' refers to, but given the context of Eusebius's statement it could be the spirits of wicked kings worshiped as gods. Many human kings were viewed as gods even while alive, and many went through rituals of dedication that authorized them as rulers on behalf of demons or angels. (you can get a clearer view of that system of ritual here. Ninurta, as described here, is probably Nimrod) Isaiah 14:9 talks about the rephaim rising up to meet the king of Babylon so maybe Eusebius sees a group of humans as in league with the Nephilim spirits and that might be what is referred to in Timothy.

In regards to the reference in idolatry, the Nephilim were worshiped as gods. The Nephilim were mighty men of renown, the kind people turned into gods. Eusebius draws that out further in the first few chapters of what I linked above. I think of the gods that people worshiped, most were Nephilim but some may have been fallen angels. In particular I have in mind Enlil.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

You are misrepresenting my position.

Not true.
IF. Can you see the IF. Let me put it in CAPS so you can SEE it.

Well IF you think all of Revelation is sequential, then we have no hope.

When did I ever say all revelation "is sequential"? I said Rev 12 is.

IF you think that all of Revelation is not sequential than you should be able to entertain the possibility of one chapter of it not being sequential. Don't blow a gasket because I asked "if" in an argument.

Eden is not mentioned there at all. BTW, Eden was just a place on the Earth. It was the garden of Eden that was special and no, that isn't mentioned there either.

Eden is what commentators use as an abbreviated description of Revelation 22. Sorry I didn't adequately reference the chapter to your liking. The point of my question was to ascertain your degree of interpreting Revelation and how extreme you take to a sequential reading of the book. This is related to my very first "if" in the post. "if you think all of Revelation is sequential". I guess instead of answering a basic question of if you think Rev 22 occurs after Rev 21 in time, you wish to debate Eden.

Don't tell me what I don't acknowledge. I believe they are here.

You did state Satan was in heaven and with his angels.

Again, stop telling me what you think I believe.

I guess you can't read the question mark at the end of a sentence. That means I am asking what you believe, questioning it and not stating what I think you believe. This is the process of communication.

I'm going to ignore the rest of this nonsense.

You allude to Revelation as unfulfilled prophecy. I try to ask questions about what prophesy you think has been fulfilled. You wish to dismiss arguments against your position because of "nonsense". You fail to defend what you posit and just start with name calling. Good communicating skills there.

And, you continue to ignore how scripture associates angels and stars. Even the secular acknowledge such.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The giants that came after the flood were the result of the impure DNA of the wives of the sons of Noah. Remember, he cursed one of his grandsons? Noah cursed Ham's son Canaan... thus.. Canaanites.

How is a curse giving of great stature, heroes of old, men of renown? Try again.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

No.... I mean do you seriously think that it is a valid point to say:

"words are quoted, not a book"?

Which book of the Bible am I quoting when I say God will judge evil people? Many prophets have said this. This is a generic statement. Just because Enoch said it does not make the Book of Enoch unquestionably true.

Whether Jude read it from a book of half truths or Jude was inspired by the Holy Spirit to learn what Enoch said, it really doesn't matter. Because Jude does not explicitly say his quote was from the Book of Enoch we do not know if he was giving an endorsement of the book.

What I am saying is if you quote a common idea in a book, that does not make authentic every book that says the same.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Your beliefs are noted, but I give Scriptural support for my beliefs (though I admit my opinions could still be wrong).

I have quoted plenty of scripture, read post 15. You have not provided scripture defending how you believe that Jude 6 is addressing the Nephilim. Can you explain your reasoning for such a belief? I have asked this before because others state the same, but I have not gotten an explanation to it.



Do you acknowledge that there is a spiritual realm on earth?

I don't know what this means.​

It means there are angels around us in a spiritual realm, Ephesians 6:11-12. We have guardian angels around us that protect us. Satan and his angels protect people like say Hitler and fight against us. 2 Kings 6:17 This struggle is not in heaven, highest heaven where God the Father is. The Lord's Prayer teaches that God the Father is in heaven and that in heaven his will is being done, not Satan's.


That he commands and leads the angels in battle against Satan?

Either Jesus or Michael.​

Joshua 5 says the Son of God/Jesus commands the angels.
Revelation 19:11-21 has imagery of Jesus going to battle with the angels/armies of heaven against Satan.


I do not believe God the Father allows anything impure in his presence. Not even Moses could see his face, let alone Satan. When Satan goes to God, it is not in the highest heaven, but in the heavenly/spiritual realm on earth.

Besides Ex 33:12-23, Revelation 21:27 teaches that in the new age where heaven is joined with earth, there will be nothing impure. I believe people in this fallen state can not see God in all his glory. It would be too much for us and anything impure is not allowed in his presence. This will be even greater for us then at first creation.

As for your point 7, I can't see the chapter as future. The last verse states exactly where the Christian Church is today, where Satan is at war with "those who keep God’s commands and hold fast their testimony about Jesus".

There is plenty of scripture that says Satan is the prince of this world. I can't see anything in the NT that says he is still in heaven.

John 12:31 Now is the time for judgment on this world; now the prince of this world will be driven out.

John 14:30 I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold over me,

John 16:11 and about judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

The creator did say "let us make man in "our" image. Was the "our" referring to the trinity or all His heavenly creations?

I've always thought the Trinity was in view there.

God is spirit. Angels are spirit. But we are made in the image of God. Made in the image of God is not referring to anything physical. It is referring to us having a soul that can be filled with the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Nothing in the Book of Enoch contradicts the canon.

It is not canon according to most Protestants.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Look in your bible and note the timing of the very first demon.. They do not show up until after the flood. Angels have been around since before man. Angels can take on human form.. demons... cannot.

Sorry, not a compelling argument. There are only 5 chapters in the Bible before the flood is described. There is a lot missing. I once read how someone calculated there could be 10 Trillion people that died in the flood.

Genesis 6:11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.

You may say that the text says each person was full of violence, but I say the world was full of people and they were violent people. Regardless, the cause was hopeless and God had to start over. Do you think that the world is so hopeless today? Then I say our level of violence and evil is not what it was at the flood. What about NT scripture that says the end times will be like it was with Noah?

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming of the Son of Man.

 

[Andrew Jeremiah]

Weren't demons once angels?

No. Not angels.

Demons are attitudes, and in the NT it was associated with "evil" attitudes/spirits, or "unclean spirits/attitudes.

Demons originate from man.

In 1st Corinthians 12 Paul speaks about certain gifts of the Holy Spirit. One of them is the gift of discerning of spirits.
This gift discerns the source of any spiritual phenomenon.
There are four "spirits" in creation to discern:

1. the spirit of elect angels
2. the spirit of fallen angels
3. the spirit of man
4. the Spirit of God.

These four and no more.

Demons, these evil attitudes or spirits emanate from man.
[ever heard of the "spirit of Christmas?"]
Inanimate, can't see 'em. But you can feel them and their effects.

 

[GoldenKingGaze]

Can you post some of the sources for this? I have read the bible and I didn't see, anywhere, where it says that there was people before Adam.

Gen 1:26 Then God said, "And now we will make human beings; they will be like us and resemble us. They will have power over the fish, the birds, and all animals, domestic and wild, large and small."
Gen 1:27 So God created human beings, making them to be like himself. He created them male and female,
Gen 1:28 blessed them, and said, "Have many children, so that your descendants will live all over the earth and bring it under their control. I am putting you in charge of the fish, the birds, and all the wild animals. GNB

Gen 2:7 Then the LORD God took some soil from the ground and formed a man out of it; he breathed life-giving breath into his nostrils and the man began to live. GNB

As for Genesis 6 and the Sons of God, they probably were not angels. Angels need not resemble God. They were more likely human like creatures from an older world. Angels are not called sons of God.

Jude quoted Enoch, but does that mean the whole book is in order and true? Jesus quotes Tobit in reverse, from "do not do unto others what you do not want them to do to you", into "do unto others as you would have them do to you." Tobit is considered an historical Hebrew book, but not the word of God.

 

[JoeP222w]

Quoting it means he believed the prophecy

Truth is not dependent on belief.

It suggests quite plainly that Jude did accept the book of Enoch.

One person's acceptance, even if true (which at this point is simply your assertion and supposition, not proven), does not define the canon.

 

[JacksBratt]

Why would God give them reproductive organs if they were never going to reproduce?

IDK. Why do men have nipples?

I just do not hold to the "sons of God" being any human being, genealogy or bloodline. The Sethite view has been debunked and proven to be wrong on many fronts.

The only explanation for what happened after Genesis 6 is that they were fallen angels who took human women for wives and procreation.

Fair enough, I can't think of a Biblical reference to a female angel.

Agreed

I've always thought the Trinity was in view there.

I tend to lean that way too.

Not to be crude, but functioning male reproductive organs were not necessary for what the Sodomites had in mind...

My point was that, anatomically, they were human males.

Myself, also not to be crude, they wouldn't have needed what the Sodomites were interested in either.

 

[JacksBratt]

How would being fallen change them into viable males? Can you produce Scripture that supports this theory?

I think any angel is able to change into a human form. I think that when they do it, it should be under the permission of God for God's work.

These fallen ones sinned when they did this, for many reasons...one being doing this outside of the permission of God.