Are angels the same as demons?

[AnticipateHisComing]

Your logic is correct, and Paul did quote secular texts. However Paul never called them prophecy. The fact that the author of Jude calls this section of the Book of Enoch prophecy means that it does contain scripture.

Read the text closely to see a quote of Enoch. It does not say it quotes the "Book of Enoch". Some people wishing to insert non-truths into scripture take a basic truth that most any scripture reader could realize and associate it with a questionable text. Note that even the High Priest that sent Jesus to his death prophesied so to utter a prophesy does not even guarantee they are God's prophet and everything they say is true. Remember that Balaam was called a prophet even though he was wicked. We do know that Enoch walked with God and we would expect that he like Noah would preach righteousness.

As your logic points out, not all of it may be scripture, but logic also points out that some of it is. So it can't simply be brushed away from the Bible as you attempted to do.

I will admit to not knowing much about the Book of Enoch, because it is not in the Bible so my church had determined. I trust they used due diligence to determine so. I will offer a simple critique though. As a believer in Sola Scriptura, I believe it to be the only unquestionable source of God's word. To insert a book of half truth only discredits the concept that God can not lie and all his words are true.

Neither can the story of the Nephilim, which is contained in scripture, including in Jude.

I don't think you have read my posts close enough to argue my statements about Nephilim.

The only thing that should be brushed away from the Bible is the Sethite theory; it is the only thing that is not found in scripture, and it's a relatively modern heresy.

By your own acknowledgement, you question the Book. I ask how could Enoch have written a book before the flood? Where does it fit with the rest of scripture that has the first five books being written by Moses, the start of structured/organized religion? The Bible; Genesis in the beginning, Revelation the end and then the new age. How can you get more true than this? You can't add or delete to it.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

It's quoted in scripture as scripture. #38

Words are quoted, not a book.

 

[JacksBratt]

In response the question; where Demons once angels. I give the following.
Starting at Genesis and then moving onward is presented these scriptures which pertain to the subject at hand.

Gen 6:1-5 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
Gen 6:2 That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.
Gen 6:3 And the LORD said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
Gen 6:4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Gen 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
Reading the Book of Enoch one sees a discussion of that event and the results of it. There were very strange Beings formed from this. The old Greek stories of half man and half horse has come the mating of these angels with animals, among other things.
However, there was more than one eruption of these sons of God; the fallen angels if you prefer.

I think if you look closer, you will see that these angels were forced to watch their offspring kill each other off in a civil war.. then they were chained in the lower part of hell until judgement. Somewhere it says for 70 generations.

It was the second generation of these giants that then, with the knowledge they had, began to play with the genetics of man and all animals.

They did this until all flesh was corrupted. In fact, Noah, his wife and his three sons were the only pure humans left.

Even the wives that Noah chose for his boys would have been hybrids. This is how the giants returned in the "and after that" part of "in those days".

It was not the angels that mated with the other creatures. It was the knowledge that was passed on to their hybrid offspring that allowed it to happen.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Enoch was dead so they only way Jude knew the prophecy made by Enoch was to read it. Quoting it means he believed the prophecy and if the rest of the book was false, why quote and believe in one prophecy in it? It suggests quite plainly that Jude did accept the book of Enoch. Whether that version is still the version we have today I cannot say.

And how exactly did Moses recount the events in the Garden of Eden? What book did he read it in? Try again, your argument ignores the basic concept of the authors of scripture being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

This has been a profitable exercise for me. After doing a quick word study on demons in the Bible, I see now that demons and unclean spirits are probably the same entities, as both seek to inhabit/possess humans. I used to think unclean spirits were the ones seeking to possess humans, while fallen angels/demons were the false gods that controlled/used these unclean spirits. I am now unsure as to whether the term demon can appropriately be applied to fallen angels. I will be following this thread with interest.

Thank you all for your thoughts.

You must agree that there are fallen angels. If God's angels are ministering spirits serving God, then impure spirits would be fallen angels serving Satan. And as you stated from scripture, demons are impure spirits.

 

[JacksBratt]

Words are quoted, not a book.

Seriously?

 

[JacksBratt]

And how exactly did Moses recount the events in the Garden of Eden? What book did he read it in? Try again, your argument ignores the basic concept of the authors of scripture being inspired by the Holy Spirit.

From what I understand, some of the books that Moses wrote, were dictated by God.

The book of Enoch, in my opinion, could be just as valid as other canonized scripture.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I agree, yet I wrestle with the concept of how the fallen angels were able to procreate... did God create angels who would not procreate (Matthew 22:30) with the physical attributes necessary for it? Why?

Read Matthew 22:30 closely to see that Jesus talks about angels in heaven. Genesis 6 is talking about a fallen angel on earth that has somehow taken on a physical body procreating with a woman. So Angels are male type even if normally in a spiritual body. Further, I think this ability for fallen angels to do so has ended. I can't say when. It was after the flood because they were still around when David killed Goliath.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Seriously?

Ya, if you can offer up a serious response to my post 61. Do you understand that Satan quoted scripture? Quoting one truth does not make you true.

 

[JacksBratt]

You must agree that there are fallen angels. If God's angels are ministering spirits serving God, then impure spirits would be fallen angels serving Satan. And as you stated from scripture, demons are impure spirits.

Fallen angels follow Satan. Demons are the disembodied souls of the hybrids of Genesis 6. All the offspring that were not fully human, cannot be saved and covered by the blood of Christ.

This is why some believe that the "mark of the beast" will be some sort of genetic, DNA alteration of the human who accepts it. This DNA alteration changes them so that they have a pseudo immortality (remember, they will want to die but death will not find them). Also, they will not be human and thus cannot be saved by Christ..

Remember what is said by Christ Himself..
Matthew 24:37-39 King James Version (KJV)

37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

From what I understand, some of the books that Moses wrote, were dictated by God.

The book of Enoch, in my opinion, could be just as valid as other canonized scripture.

If you can acknowledge so, then it should not be a stretch to acknowledge Jude was inspired by the Holy Spirit and not the Book of Enoch. Just because truth and fiction pass on one instance does not validate fiction.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Demons are the disembodied souls of the hybrids of Genesis 6.

There is no scripture that says such. Where is the support for such a statement. I have argued that such a union would not create souls so when the Nephilim died there would be no disembodied souls roaming the earth. No one has argued against my post, 6 on such.

 

[Kit Sigmon]

Weren't demons once angels?

Here's what I got on this:

Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.


Revelation 12:7
Michael and his angels fighting against the dragon.
And the dragon and his angels fought back, the great dragon was thrown down,
that ancient serpent, who is called the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

Lucifer and the angels that followed him all lost their former estates...and note in many verses in the Bible how they are called and or referred to in their current estates....The Bible refers to them as angels in some verses, they are called fallen angels, unclean spirits, impure spirits, demons... satan and his angels, devil and his angels...depending on what bible translation you use.

The Bible shows Lucifer going from a high ranking angel or anointed cherub who covers... to him being called satan, devil, serpent, dragon etc. as it is with fallen angels to unclean spirits; the devil and his angels, evil spirits/unclean spirits, demon.
In the new testament unclean/impure spirit be used...that comes from the greek word akathartos: unclean, foul, impure and it's used over twenty some times in the NT speaking of bad angels/demons.
Matthew 10:1 Greek Text Analysis
Greek Concordance: ἀκαθάρτων (akathartōn) -- 4 Occurrences
Strong's Greek: 1140. δαιμόνιον (daimonion) -- an evil spirit, a demon

 

[JacksBratt]

Read Matthew 22:30 closely to see that Jesus talks about angels in heaven. Genesis 6 is talking about a fallen angel on earth that has somehow taken on a physical body procreating with a woman. So Angels are male type even if normally in a spiritual body. Further, I think this ability for fallen angels to do so has ended. I can't say when. It was after the flood because they were still around when David killed Goliath.

I think that the angels have the same abilities. I think that they all are learning from the mistakes of the others... the punishment was harsh. The book of Enoch says that when Michael the archangel read the punishment, even he, who was innocent, was shaking.

The giants that came after the flood were the result of the impure DNA of the wives of the sons of Noah. Remember, he cursed one of his grandsons? Noah cursed Ham's son Canaan... thus.. Canaanites.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Check out these verses in Revelation 16. They show that there is a difference between Fallen Angels and Evil Spirits/Demons:


And I saw Three Unclean Spirits like frogs coming out of the mouth of The Dragon, out of the mouth of The Beast, and out of the mouth of The False Prophet. For they are spirits of demons, performing signs, which go out to the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
• Revelation 16:13-14


Remember that The Beast ascends out of The Bottomless Pit. The Beast is a Fallen Angel that has been kept prisoner, so the demons actually come out of The Dragon/Satan and The Beast who is a Fallen Angel.


My personal opinion is that Azazel from the Book of Enoch is The Beast that ascends out of The Bottomless Pit.

I decided to look up that verse in an interlinear and saw something I never knew. The word used for unclean, as in unclean spirits, means unclean of mixture. I had no idea it was starring us in the face this whole time.

Don't be so quick to believe a snap proof. Just as Jesus was God and man, I believe in the end times when Satan is let loose he will take on flesh. This does not mean that every impure spirit referenced in scripture is a type of Genesis 6 hybrid. Sanoy, go through the NT and see how many references there are of demons to impure/evil spirits.

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

I think that the angels have the same abilities. I think that they all are learning from the mistakes of the others... the punishment was harsh. The book of Enoch says that when Michael the archangel read the punishment, even he, who was innocent, was shaking.

The giants that came after the flood were the result of the impure DNA of the wives of the sons of Noah. Remember, he cursed one of his grandsons? Noah cursed Ham's son Canaan... thus.. Canaanites.

I thought that most Protestants did not hold the Book of Enoch as scripture.

 

[JacksBratt]

Ya, if you can offer up a serious response to my post 61. Do you understand that Satan quoted scripture? Quoting one truth does not make you true.

No.... I mean do you seriously think that it is a valid point to say:

"words are quoted, not a book"?

 

[Sanoy]

Read the text closely to see a quote of Enoch. It does not say it quotes the "Book of Enoch". Some people wishing to insert non-truths into scripture take a basic truth that most any scripture reader could realize and associate it with a questionable text. Note that even the High Priest that sent Jesus to his death prophesied so to utter a prophesy does not even guarantee they are God's prophet and everything they say is true. Remember that Balaam was called a prophet even though he was wicked. We do know that Enoch walked with God and we would expect that he like Noah would preach righteousness.

I will admit to not knowing much about the Book of Enoch, because it is not in the Bible so my church had determined. I trust they used due diligence to determine so. I will offer a simple critique though. As a believer in Sola Scriptura, I believe it to be the only unquestionable source of God's word. To insert a book of half truth only discredits the concept that God can not lie and all his words are true.

I don't think you have read my posts close enough to argue my statements about Nephilim.

By your own acknowledgement, you question the Book. I ask how could Enoch have written a book before the flood? Where does it fit with the rest of scripture that has the first five books being written by Moses, the start of structured/organized religion? The Bible; Genesis in the beginning, Revelation the end and then the new age. How can you get more true than this? You can't add or delete to it.

I realize that Jude does not mention the words "Book of Enoch". He doesn't mention it because it was common knowledge in the second temple era and anyone hearing the prophecy would have immediately recognized the source. The High priest was not a writer of scripture, however the writer of Jude was, as evidenced in any Bible. And that writer is telling us that this quote from the book of Enoch is scripture by virtue of it being declared prophecy. There is no legitimate way around that. No one is required to put it in their Bible but neither can it be pushed away as it does contain valid scripture.

There are many churches and many versions of the Bible that contain many differing number of books. Some even included the book of Enoch. Is your church the only one to do due diligence? Sola Scripture means Scripture alone, not "group of texts X" alone.

I'm not saying the book of Enoch is half truth. I am merely saying it necessarily has scripture in it via Jude. With the exception of the heights there is no reason to doubt the book of Enoch. The only point of doubt is the heights, but that is no more an error than the Masoretic height of Goliath and the LLX height of Goliath. All of the content of the book of Enoch was standard to the second temple era and informed the writers of the NT including Paul who says for women to cover their heads for the sake of the angels.

How could Enoch have written a book before the flood? How do you suppose Moses knew what happened before Enoch when he wrote Genesis 1?

Where is this in the Torah? Genesis chapter 6. Where else? Daniel uses the content to speak of end times, just as Enoch does in Daniel 2:43 "Because thou hast seen iron mixed with miry clay, they are mixing themselves with the seed of men: and they are not adhering one with another, even as iron is not mixed with clay. (Youngs literal translation) We can also find it in various parts of the new testament some of which has been mentioned others would take too much to unpack.

 

[JacksBratt]

I thought that most Protestants did not hold the Book of Enoch as scripture.

I don't follow what "most protestants" or "most anyone" follows.

I look at things and I compare it to the scripture that is canonized.

I have some odd views but none of it will ever go against the Bible.

The book of Enoch, the book of Jubilee, the book of Yasher... all are very good works for understanding the biblical scripture.

If not canon... they are good side notes and history books.

I think Enoch is infinitely valuable.

 

[food4thought]

I have never seen Shedim used in reference to the fallen angels. It seems to only be used in reference to spirits. In every case I am aware of, angels are called generically as mesengers, Elohim, "Son's of God", or watchers. That said, Shedim comes from Shedu which could refer to divine beings like watchers so there could be some flexibility to the word. But for practical purposes the watchers were bound while the unclean spirits roam the earth.

There are only two references to Shedim (Strong's H7700) in the OT that I could find. There were also many references to evil/lying/deceiving rhu'ak. The NT seems to equate demons and fallen angels at times, though. Paul speaks of "the doctrines of demons" (1 Timothy 4:1), and they are sometimes referenced as being associated with idolatry (1 Corinthians 10:20-21; Revelation 9:20)... these are things I have always associated with fallen angels, not unclean spirits. Maybe I am just confused...

In one of the few uses of shedim in the OT it mentions them making their appearance relativly recently. Deuteronomy 32:17. From the context of verse 8, which describes the division of nations, we get a time point for the arrival of the Shedim as sometime after the flood.

Yes. It seems likely that there are some form of unclean spirits roaming the earth that are somehow associated with the Nephilim. The question for me is: does demon always reference unclean spirits, or is the term used more broadly and also references fallen angels?