Well, I think that is a bit of a technicality...I have never heard that one before. I, 100%, believe that this thief was saved by the blood of Christ and his belief in who Christ was.
Sure it is, but what's wrong with that?
I disagree. God is quite unmoved by the beliefs of men. If you need baptism to be saved... then you need baptism to be saved... you cannot cherry pick who is given a pass or jumps the que.
It could be argued that every human has had ample time to accept Christ and be baptized... just because your dying on a battle field doesn't mean you get special treatment...and can skip this step... if it is a prerequisite.
I don't disagree with what you're saying. That's why I would never bank on potential exceptions or lead anyone else to believe that. My main point is that Jesus was clear on what it takes to become a child of God, and that includes baptism. Period.
I was just saying
if there was an exception, I can't say one way or the other--that's 100% in God's hands.
The people of these obscure tribes that never hear the gospel, will still be judged to see if they are saved. Only God can do this. He gives us a glimpse of the way they will be held accountable with this verse:
Romans 1:20King James Version (KJV)
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
I don't disagree with this.
It sounds like you're now agreeing with my original point towards you.
Other than the thief on the cross... we ALL have had the knowledge and capacity and time, in our lives, to act according to this rule of being baptized.
Exactly.
Well, only God knows their heart. Are they saved because they have already made the decision? Are they not saved because they didn't go forward at the actual event?
A lot of questions of the sort that only God knows for sure.
What if, after the alter call, they all "planned" to get baptized?
What if anyone "planned" to get baptized but the church was booked for other special services? The Baptismal tank was being repaired? The person had to go out of town for business and had to delay it?
The list of "what ifs" is huge.
This is why we just stick to what we know from Holy Scripture.
I will say that are plenty of ways to be baptized, and in Churches of Christ (where I attend), I have heard multiple stories of people getting baptized in a swimming pool in the middle of the night.
Our preachers are HAPPY to do whatever it takes for you to respond to the gospel.
Salvation is simple and it's not any physical action or ceremony. Salvation is a change of heart and acceptance of Christ...
According to scripture, it involves a combination of things. I would agree, by way of summary, that a change of heart and acceptance of Christ is what salvation entails...but those things include confession and baptism.
There are many verses that speak of salvation and totally ignore the mention of baptism.
I already answered this point. Just because baptism isn't always mentioned specifically in the context of salvation every time, doesn't mean it's not essential. We have to take ALL scripture as a whole to understand what the will of God is.
Although my guess is that more often than not, baptism is indeed mentioned in these passages. If you read through the book of Acts, conversion story after conversion story involves baptism...and it takes place ASAP.
Baptism is the implementation of a Law that is imposed by men. Why is it that men always have to make some "rule" or "event" or some act of "doing"?
On the contrary, why do men have to ignore clear commandments straight from Jesus because they are so afraid of anything remotely close to "legalism"?
The baptism of John was "from Heaven", as Jesus pointed out in Luke 20:1-8.
Baptism into Christ is a commandment FROM Christ--from the very beginning. Mark 16:16
The apostles simply CONTINUED Jesus' teaching, which is why when the "first gospel sermon" was preached in Acts 2, vs. 38 mentions baptism along with repentance.
Yes, faith/hope/love/compassion/inner spirituality/etc. are all emphasized with he New Covenant, over the largely physical and ritualistic nature of the Law of Moses--However, physical things are still mentioned all throughout the NT. We are told to sing, pray, give thanks, etc.
So why is baptism so ludicrous?
Of course we have to "do" things. However the connection is "doing" something that "earns" the reward.
Acceptance of a gift is "doing" but, as I said, accepting the keys to a car is not "doing" any action that could be accepted as justification for "earning" the car.
We, as humans, are incapable of ever "doing" enough to earn our salvation. Certainly "accepting" Christs gift is not "doing" anything considering the magnitude of the gift.
And this is exactly my point!
The grabbing the keys don't earn you the car, but THEY ARE NECESSARY TO DRIVE.
Likewise, baptism
does not earn salvation,
but it's necessary to be in the body of Christ.
Yes, lots of scripture... not all include baptism.
I'm sorry, but you're not really making a valid point here.
Not all include faith.
Not all include repentance.
Not all include a description of what the gospel is.
Do you need faith even though it's not specifically mentioned in every passage regarding salvation? Yes.
Do you need to repent? Yes.
Do you need to understand what the gospel is? Yes.
Some here believe that "believing" is "doing" something.
It's obvious that believing is
doing something. Believing is a free-will action. No one can force you to believe.
Ya, that's some pretty cryptic scripture. I'll have to go through that slowly, later, when I have time to digest it.
Sure, 1 Peter 3 is fairly dense overall and mentions some unique things, but I think the statement regarding baptism is clear.
In the way that water "saved" Noah and his family because it kept the boat afloat while the evil people drowned...likewise, water "saves" us not by removing dirt, but because it is symbolically washing away our sins through the blood of Jesus...and the fact that we know that is an appeal to a good conscience.