You must be born again to be saved?

JacksBratt

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Firstly, I don't mean to sound harsh...just trying to be straightforward.
No worries.

1. Just because baptism doesn't appear in every passage that refers to salvation doesn't prove anything.
Can we use that same logic with anything else in the Bible? How about with sin? Does every sin have to be listed out in one passage to know "ok I really can't do any of these things.". Of course not, we have to look at ALL passages regarding sin and therefor we learn that lying is a sin even though it's not necessarily listed next to blasphemy.
So we should also look at ALL passages regarding salvation in order to come to a COMPLETE understanding on the topic. Otherwise we are guilty of "cherry picking".
(See 2 Timothy 3:16-17 + Revelation 22:18-19)

I understand your mindset. I understand that in places in the bible baptism followed directly after accepting Christ.

The problem that I have is that the thief on the cross was saved and was not baptized. Are you saying that it is mandatory for some but not others?

How about the soldier, in war, dying, and the Chaplin comes over to his side and he asks what he has to do to be saved. The Chaplin holds his hand and walks him through it.. seconds later the man dies, not baptized..... Another special case?

Or, a group of teenagers at a youth rally, go forward at an alter call. They all give their lives to Christ. After the service, they do what teenagers do and go out to a fast food place for munchies... after that, on their way home, they are hit by a drunk driver... dead but saved, or not saved as they were not yet baptized.

I just cannot see this profession of faith as part of the prerequisite for salvation. Salvation is not what we have done, not some ritual... It's the change of heart, the attitude of the heart, the accepting of who Christ is and the belief that He has saved your and forgiven your sins.....

Is Baptism important.. of course it is.. It fulfills the "confessing with your mouth" part. But, to say you are not saved without it.. I think that is an error of men.

2. In all the examples of baptism in the book of Acts, they are done ASAP--not after some multi-week course. Once someone believes that Jesus is the son of God, confesses that faces, and commits to repentance, then they are immediately baptized. See Acts 16:33

Understood.

3. Just because you "think" that certain people make it to heaven, doesn't make it so. To be a Christian is to follow Christ...and all the information that we need to know about Christ is contained within the Bible--so let's stick to the source! It is good that you accept the fact that Jesus teaches baptism in water...so don't deceive yourself--just do what He says! And teach others to do the same.

I agree, no man has the right to say if someone "made it to heaven" or not. Especially not on what the person has done or not done.

I do believe that all who are coached to accepting Christ should also be encouraged to be baptized.... I just don't think salvation depends on it.

4. When people die, they do not go straight to heaven or hell. We all go to a place of waiting called "hades" (from the Greek) which is the realm of the dead. Hades is distinguished from "hell" ("gehenna" in Greek) which is the place of eternal torment. See the final judgment taught by Jesus in Matthew 25:31-46 and that hades is distinguished from the "lake of fire" in Revelation 20:14.

Well, to be honest, I haven't really read up on this topic. I do know that the bible states that after death comes judgement. I cannot say that I believe that saved and unsaved go to the same place. This is evident in the story of Lazarus and the rich man. They were obviously in different places. Are they both in Hades? IDK.

I do believe that the unsaved are judged at the great white throne judgement at the end of the millennial age. However Christians will rule, with Christ, on earth during this period. Therefore, the saved must have already been judged, rewarded, had the marriage of Christ and His bride.

Like I said, I haven't really researched it and don't really care. I know that after I die I will not be in a place of any sort of worry or burden. I will be in a better place than here. Whether heaven or a "good" part of Hades.... IDK

Even when Jesus died, He also went to hades (see 1 Peter 3:19), although note that in hades there seems to be a good part called "paradise" and a bad part, as the parable of the rich man & Lazarus suggests (Luke 16:19-30) as well as Jesus words on the cross (Luke 23:43).

I'm pretty sure that when Jesus died.. He went to Hell, preached to the unsaved and got the keys..What all this means for those He preached to... I am certainly not sure either....

But, He had to go there as part of His punishment. Did He not?. He had to endure what I would have endured as a sinner. He had to do this in order to accomplish his paying the price of the sinner.

Again, I don't have a lot of interest in this. Maybe I should, but as a Christian, other things are higher on my priority than where sinners and saints go when they die as they wait for the rest of time to play out. I know I will be and all saved will be in a better place than here.
 
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JacksBratt

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Less work is still work. Something is still more than nothing.

-CryptoLutheran
Yep... and I am not saved by "work". I am saved by Christ's grace and my faith in that.

There is nothing I can "do" to save myself.

There are people out there who are giving to every charity, holding every door, volunteering for every event, carrying in all the groceries, serving at soup kitchens every Friday... believe they are really good people... but have not accepted Christ, may not even believe in Him.. they think "I have been good" and they are... very good people... yet not saved.

Salvation is when your heart changes from "I am good" to "I am lost".
From "I can do it" to "I need Christ"
From "I'm not bad" to "I am in need of help"
From "I don't need Christ" to "Christ please save me"

The rest is a verbal manifestation of that change of heart and an outward public declaration of it. The voice or the mind puts the change of heart into thought, a request to Christ, be it audible or in your head. It is a total change of heart and attitude.

This is why we say that only God knew their heart.
 
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Darrel Slugoski

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Well, I'll give you the fact that baptism is a command from Christ. However, there are many verses of scripture that tell you what to do to be saved and don't include baptism as one of them.

I would strongly suggest to anyone that I bring to Christ that they should get baptized,

Most churches will run a short course on Christianity for anyone who wants to get baptized. I highly recommend it but I think that there are plenty of Christians in heaven who never got baptized.

I don't see anywhere in scripture were it says it is optional . Christ commanded " Baptise all nations "
These scriptures you suggest are not either/or statements. They are and/both statements . Not to be taken in isolation nor are they meant to negate Baptism .

Can Christ under special circumstance save someone , I can agree ( like the thief on the cross ) or a dying person accepting Christ at the last minute . But the norm is Baptism .I think they must get Baptised and I would do it for a dying person if they were also willing to accept Jesus .

If you are Presbyterian , Lutheran ,Anglican , Orthodox or Catholic Baptism Is considered a sacrament . Some Christians believe it is symbolic so why bother . Then there are the Pentecostals that insist you must be Baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved . It all depends on how a person interprets scripture as to were they place Baptism .

Not trying to sture up anything , just sharing my thoughts
 
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Darrel Slugoski

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Yep... and I am not saved by "work". I am saved by Christ's grace and my faith in that.

There is nothing I can "do" to save myself.

There are people out there who are giving to every charity, holding every door, volunteering for every event, carrying in all the groceries, serving at soup kitchens every Friday... believe they are really good people... but have not accepted Christ, may not even believe in Him.. they think "I have been good" and they are... very good people... yet not saved.

Salvation is when your heart changes from "I am good" to "I am lost".
From "I can do it" to "I need Christ"
From "I'm not bad" to "I am in need of help"
From "I don't need Christ" to "Christ please save me"

The rest is a verbal manifestation of that change of heart and an outward public declaration of it. The voice or the mind puts the change of heart into thought, a request to Christ, be it audible or in your head. It is a total change of heart and attitude.

This is why we say that only God knew their heart.

Does Not scripture also say "faith without works is dead"

Gal 5:4-6 nothing counts but faith working through love
James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (read 1-28 )*
Phil 2:12 Work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Mt 10:22 he who endures till the end will be saved
Mt 7:21 Not all those who say lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father

My works alone wont save me and my faith alone wont save me , Gods grace will. Faith ,works , Grace is built like a 3 legged stool take one leg away the stool falls down.

A change of heart is important yet Christ says Mt 24:13 'those who persevere to the end will be saved' . Some Christians will go off the rails, are deceived , commit adultery loose their faith , or in other words fall away . A one time declaration is not enough .We need daily declarations , repentance , works , obedience and maintain our faith throughout our lives .
 
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1stcenturylady

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JacksBratt

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I don't see anywhere in scripture were it says it is optional . Christ commanded " Baptise all nations "
These scriptures you suggest are not either/or statements. They are and/both statements . Not to be taken in isolation nor are they meant to negate Baptism .

Can Christ under special circumstance save someone , I can agree ( like the thief on the cross ) or a dying person accepting Christ at the last minute . But the norm is Baptism .I think they must get Baptised and I would do it for a dying person if they were also willing to accept Jesus .

If you are Presbyterian , Lutheran ,Anglican , Orthodox or Catholic Baptism Is considered a sacrament . Some Christians believe it is symbolic so why bother . Then there are the Pentecostals that insist you must be Baptised in the Holy Spirit to be saved . It all depends on how a person interprets scripture as to were they place Baptism .

Not trying to sture up anything , just sharing my thoughts
You are right. There are many different views on this.
I have a fear that some Catholic's are not saved but believe they are due to the fact that they were baptized at birth.

This issue will be argued until Christ's return.
 
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JacksBratt

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Does Not scripture also say "faith without works is dead"

Gal 5:4-6 nothing counts but faith working through love
James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by faith alone (read 1-28 )*
Phil 2:12 Work out your salvation in fear and trembling
Mt 10:22 he who endures till the end will be saved
Mt 7:21 Not all those who say lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my father

My works alone wont save me and my faith alone wont save me , Gods grace will. Faith ,works , Grace is built like a 3 legged stool take one leg away the stool falls down.

A change of heart is important yet Christ says Mt 24:13 'those who persevere to the end will be saved' . Some Christians will go off the rails, are deceived , commit adultery loose their faith , or in other words fall away . A one time declaration is not enough .We need daily declarations , repentance , works , obedience and maintain our faith throughout our lives .
You are right. Works don't save you. Faith without works is dead. However, we have to define what is "works"? What is "Fruit"

A guy who drinks all weekend, gambles and parties, has endless list of one night stands and live in girlfriends.... comes to the alter one day and ends all of this worldly behavior.... is that not fruits? Is that not a "good work" in his life?
 
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