Libertarian freewill vs limited freewill

Doug Melven

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If we had a completely independent free will, we could choose not to be slaves to sin or slaves to God. The wages of sin would not have any consequences when we died. We could just will ourselves off to wherever we wanted and float away to o ur own paradise.
Choices have consequences. Some may try to deny or escape the consequences, sometimes they will succeed for a little while.
If someone breaks man's law, depending on the severity of the crime he may altogether forfeit his freewill. People in prison have very little freewill.
If you choose to serve your flesh, your flesh will become your master.
But it is still your choice that brought about the consequence.
Really? How did the prophets write every word exactly how God inspired them to do so, if we are just thinking our own thoughts and then choosing wether to act on them or not?
They were willing servants of God.

How could God's perfect plan be fulfilled through us, with everyone who is written in the book of life getting saved right on schedule, without His direct guidance and drawing power?
God knew who would be saved and wrote there names in the Book of Life.
And even that is not completely settled as someone can have there name removed from the Book of Life.
See Revelation 22.

You are either a slave to Satan or to God. That doesn't sound free to me.
Choices have consequences.


But feel free to choose whatever thing you like, and sometimes its the wrong choice and God all along factors your blunders and sin into His plan for you - for a purpose, a lesson
A true statement. God can even use our mistakes.
But God does not make us make those mistakes.

if we came to Him all on our own, by our own independent will and thoughts, then we could take the credit for our salvation
No one comes to God on there own, God draws.
The sower sows the seed on all types of ground, some bears fruit, some doesn't.
The Seed is the Word of God, and we are born again by the Incorruptible Seed of the Word of God.
In Romans 1 it says "When they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were they thankful, but they became vain in there imaginations and there foolish heart was darkened".
3 choices were made in that verse resulting in a disasterous consequence.
 
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Doug Melven

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Further, there is a difference between making a choice in the libertarian sense and a free but limited sense. Choices cannot be free from many variables including desires (other general variables: time, gravity, location, economies, biology). Most importantly choices are limited by nature. While fallen man can and does make choices, his freedom is bound (slave) to a completely sinful nature (Rom 6:20). Christians and non-Christians do not have the same freedoms. The Christian set free from the bondage of sin has a choice not to do what he knows is sin, he can fight the good fight of faith, he can put on the whole armor of God, whereas the non-Christian, cannot please God (Rom 8:8), as we read in the Word, whatever is not of faith [in Christ] is sin (.Rom 14:23). Apart from Christ, all good deeds are as filthy rags (Isa 64:6) before a righteous and Holy God.
I was hoping for something more practical. I should have been more clear in my question.
More like is a believer's freewill limited to what type of car he will buy, but God has already decided that he will buy a car.
Or can he choose to ride the city bus instead of buying a car?
Riding the bus he will meet certain people to whom he can show God's love.
But buying a car will allow him to get a more out of the way job where he will meet different people than he would have met on the bus.
If God has decided who will be saved the answer to this could be crucial.
God may have planned for the people on the bus to get saved, but the believer bought a car and didn't take the bus.
How can they hear the Word of God except they be sent.
 
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Radagast

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Your question had a wrong premise.
If someone has freewill, then what they do is not predetermined.
You may have been showing an example of nonlibertarian freewill, but it was not libertarian.
A person with freewill would check the door. I know I would.

No, I gave you a very old example (answering a question in the O.P.). There is no "premise." Staying in the room is predetermined (because the door is locked).

A person with free will might want to leave (and check the door) but in this scenario they're reading a really great book and do not want to leave.

Are they staying in the room of their own free will?

I would say "yes," but I'm a compatibilist. You may feel that the answer is "no," but I'd like to see you explain it.
 
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Doug Melven

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Consider this: you are in a locked room (so you can't leave), but you don't know that it's locked.

There is a really interesting book on the table; you pick it up and start reading. It's so good that you don't stop, so you don't try to leave the room.


Do you have free will about staying in the room?
Libertarian free will says "no," because you could have done nothing else (it was determined that you would stay in the room, because of the locked door).
I see what you are saying. The libertarian still does not want to stay in the room, but he doesn't have a choice. The door is locked.
Maybe I am at a disadvantage in your illustration because I have been there. I don't have to imagine.
Having been incarcerated for almost 5 years due to bad choices I made.
But, there were times when I did not care to leave the room, as I did not care to go anywhere.
But, the overall desire was to get out permanently.
 
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Radagast

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I see what you are saying. The libertarian still does not want to stay in the room, but he doesn't have a choice. The door is locked.
Maybe I am at a disadvantage in your illustration because I have been there. I don't have to imagine.
Having been incarcerated for almost 5 years due to bad choices I made.
But, there were times when I did not care to leave the room, as I did not care to go anywhere.
But, the overall desire was to get out permanently.

I'll try once more. It may be that your experience in prison makes it impossible for you to understand my scenario. Certainly you haven't answered the question I asked you; you've tried to change the scenario. Here is a reworded version of the scenario:

Fred is in a locked room (Fred is not you, and the room is not a prison). Fred does not know that the room is locked. Staying in the room is predetermined (because the door is locked).

Fred is having fun in the locked room. Fred is having so much fun that he doesn't try the door (which is why he doesn't know it's locked). Fred does not want to leave the room (because he's having lots of fun).


Is Fred staying in the room of his own free will?

I would say "yes," but I'm a compatibilist. You may feel that the answer is "no," but I'd like to see you explain it.

But please answer about Fred's situation, don't try to change the scenario.
 
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I don't recall ever writing that when we sin, God thinks He wins...

You gave me that impression when you said,

"Whatever we may choose to do, God's ultimate will is accomplished. When playing a chess grandmaster, we may move as we like on the chess board, but he will always win."
~ Quote by: Aiki.

You said, whatever we may choose to do, .... he [GOD] will always win.

Jason0047 said:
Do you believe in Unconditional Election?
You said:
No. I don't.

By what you said so far it sound like you believe in it.
Are you a Calvinist?

You said:
My questions were in response to your claim to have sovereignty in the same way God does. I did not think you were denying God was sovereign.

Where did I say God has sovereignty exactly like man has sovereignty?

Side Note: Just because I said God created man in his image does not mean I was suggesting that the sovereignty of God was identical to man's sovereignty.

Jason0047 said:
Man has rule or sovereignty to make decisions outside of the things of God. The world system or world order (i.e. people of this world) you see around you are not that way because God wanted them to be that way.
You said:
Not entirely, no. But Scripture is very clear about God's integral role in setting up and taking down rulers and their regimes (Ro. 13:1).

It doesn't matter if man has entire or full sovereignty. The fact is that man has sovereignty or rule over things. You said before,

"Do you control the universe? No. Do you control the existence of every person on the planet? No, you don't. Do you control whether or not you'll contract some fatal disease, or die in some horrible accident? No. God, though, has sovereign control over all of these things."~ Quote by: Aiki.

To answer your question #1:
"Do you control the universe?"
My answer: Yes, and no. I do not control the universe entirely but I do have control over it to an extent by what I do. For example: I can influence others to be loving and good. These other people are a part of the universe. So I am having some kind of control. When I drive a car, I am in control of the vehicle. The vehicle is a part of this universe.

To answer your question #2:
"Do you control the existence of every person on the planet?"
My answer: No, but I can influence or have some kind of control for good over some people's lives here on this Earth.

To answer your question #3:
Do you control whether or not you'll contract some fatal disease, or die in some horrible accident?
My answer: Yes, and no. It depends on the circumstance. I can read about certain places or things that are prone to causing fatal diseases and avoid partaking in them (Especially if the risk seems high). I can drive responsibly and live in a safer driving area and help to limit my chances of getting into a horrible accident. For example: Living on "Put-in-Bay island, in Ohio instead of say "Houston, Texas" would increase your chances of not getting into an accident. Living in the mountains and refusing to ride in a car or go near roads would also increase your chances of not getting into a horrible car accident, as well.

We can even pray for protection every day. Imagine that. God can actually protect us if we ask for such protection. Most do not ask so they do not receive.

You said:
I don't think God sees our doings in terms of winning or losing. God is perfect and this entails that He is neither diminished (He loses) or improved (He wins) by what we do or don't do.

Well, you were the one who brought it up.

For you said,

"Whatever we may choose to do, God's ultimate will is accomplished. When playing a chess grandmaster, we may move as we like on the chess board, but he will always win."
~ Quote by: Aiki.

You said:
What we do ultimately has no material effect on Him.

Wow. Really? Do you truly believe that?

Scripture says,

"And it repented [i.e. sorrowed] the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6).

"The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy." (Psalms 147:11).

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6).

"...God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalms 7:11).

You said:

While I would not classify myself as a Molinist, I do believe God has "middle knowledge" or that He knows every possible outcome and solution and He works out the best possible scenario for the ultimate good for all.

"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21).

I believe GOD did not save Tyre and Sidon by showing them miracles because they simply would not endure or overcome in their faith with the LORD. However, they would have repented (i.e. ask God for forgiveness - i.e. initial salvation). Jesus used the what if scenario with Tyre and Sidon to show how the Jew's hearts were hardened despite the miracles that He was showing them.

But ultimately it comes down to the individual and their heart. GOD knows who is going to accept Him in every possible scenario or what if situation or possible world or probability. GOD is in the saving business. Everyone will be to blame for their own choices and not GOD.

You said:
I don't believe that. Whatever steps toward God I am able to take, whatever obedience I am capable of, ultimately God has enabled it (Phil. 1:6; 2:13; Jude 1:24).

In regards to Philippians 1:6:

Well, I do not believe Jesus doing a good work in a believer and finishing it to be a matter of fact for all believers (although one can read it that way if they want to see that). How so? Because 2 Corinthians 10 says this,

4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." (2 Corinthians 10:4-11).

In other words, we can have confidence that the Lord Jesus who began a good work will finish it until the day of the Lord Jesus Christ if we hold to the conditional commands that He has given to us. If we go back and break God's commands, the condition then changes. In other words, Philippians 1:6 is context to obedience and not disobedience. Nowhere does Jesus, Paul, or any follower of Christ teach that a believer can do evil on any level and yet God will still save them. Yes, God is aware of men's hearts. He ultimately knows what they will do. He saved Samson and he did not appear to be this great and holy guy. But in the end, God knew Samson's heart. God knew that Samson would be good in His future Kingdom.

As for Philippians 2:13:

When you read Philippians 2:13 that says God works in you to work of His pleasure, you also have to read verse 12 before that says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, it would not make any sense for God to tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if it was all GOD who took care of our salvation for us. We are told to overcome and endure in the faith.

As for Jude 1:24 that says, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,"

You also have to read the following passage in context,

3 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not." (Jude 1:3-5).

"Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain," (Jude 1:11).

6 "Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” (Genesis 4:6-7) (NIV).

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

You said:
True yielding (not a fleshly piety) to God is something He makes possible in me; it is not a work of my flesh, of my will, but the consequence of God's transforming work in me.

Well, it is written...

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

You said:
The apostle Paul disagrees with you:

Ephesians 2:1-6
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind
, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,


Can a dead man do anything? No. Can those who are dead spiritually act positively toward God without His aid? No. They're spiritually dead. Without life. Incapable of spiritual activity. And what's more, these spiritually dead people are caught in the grip of the World, the Flesh, and the devil. And this is why God - not us - must act to redeem us. If He does not, no one can be saved.

The word "death" is a metaphor and is "like death" and not an exact parallel and identical of death in every single way. How do we know?

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, when the father stated: “‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.” (Luke 15:22-24) This concept betrays the Calvinistic perspective, because the son was alive, though dead in terms of separation.

1) Indeed, no one seeks God, so God seeks man. (Luke 19:10)
2) Man is dead in trespasses, not in consciousness. (Eph. 2:1)
3) Regeneration is alone reserved for those in Christ. (Eph. 1:13)
4) Faith comes from hearing the Gospel preached. (Romans 10:17)

Romans 6:11 states: “Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” If being dead in sin means one can’t respond to God then does being dead to sin mean that the Christian cannot respond to sin?

"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" (Deuteronomy 30:19).

Spiritual_Deadness.jpg


You said:
Titus 3:3-5
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,

This is talking about "Initial Salvation" because it says we were washed by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. The washing and regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost is a one time event when a person first gets saved.

You said:
2 Timothy 2:25-26 (NKJV)
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.

How does God grant men repentance? By force regenerating them? No. By GOD convicting them of their sin.

8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;" (John 16:8-9).


Source used:
Examining Calvinism
 
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Doug Melven

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I'll try once more. It may be that your experience in prison makes it impossible for you to understand my scenario. Certainly you haven't answered the question I asked you; you've tried to change the scenario. Here is a reworded version of the scenario:

Fred is in a locked room (Fred is not you, and the room is not a prison). Fred does not know that the room is locked. Staying in the room is predetermined (because the door is locked).

Fred is having fun in the locked room. Fred is having so much fun that he doesn't try the door (which is why he doesn't know it's locked). Fred does not want to leave the room (because he's having lots of fun).


Is Fred staying in the room of his own free will?

I would say "yes," but I'm a compatibilist. You may feel that the answer is "no," but I'd like to see you explain it.

But please answer about Fred's situation, don't try to change the scenario.
Fred is staying in the room of his own freewill.
Because the door is locked has no bearing on it.
 
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Radagast

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Fred is staying in the room of his own freewill.
Because the door is locked has no bearing on it.

Thank you for the straight answer.

What you say is exactly what I would say. But that's a compatibilist view -- it concentrates on the fact that Fred is doing what he genuinely wants to do.

A full-on libertarian would have said "no," on the basis that Fred had to stay in the room; he could not have chosen to leave.

So now I'm confused as to whether you truly take a libertarian view. Let's try this other version of the same thing. The villainous Dr Evil wants Fred to carry out a certain task, and implants a device into Fred's brain. The device detects whether Fred is deciding not to do the task, and will then "zap" his brain to make him do it.

It is therefore determined that Fred will do the task. But Fred also wants to do the task. He never decides to not do it, and therefore the brain-zapper never operates. Does Fred carry out the task of his own free will? (Once again, a compatibilist would say "yes," and a true libertarian, "no").
 
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Doug Melven

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Thank you for the straight answer.

What you say is exactly what I would say. But that's a compatibilist view -- it concentrates on the fact that Fred is doing what he genuinely wants to do.

A full-on libertarian would have said "no," on the basis that Fred had to stay in the room; he could not have chosen to leave.

So now I'm confused as to whether you truly take a libertarian view. Let's try this other version of the same thing. The villainous Dr Evil wants Fred to carry out a certain task, and implants a device into Fred's brain. The device detects whether Fred is deciding not to do the task, and will then "zap" his brain to make him do it.

It is therefore determined that Fred will do the task. But Fred also wants to do the task. He never decides to not do it, and therefore the brain-zapper never operates. Does Fred carry out the task of his own free will? (Once again, a compatibilist would say "yes," and a true libertarian, "no").
Fred is doing the task because he chooses to do the task.
Putting a locked door or a brain zapper he does not know about will not affect his desire to do what he wants to do.
It looks to me as if you are saying compatibilist free will is we do what we want not knowing that we have certain limits.
There are different types of limits.
Like you have a choice to go right or left, but a limit has been placed on you that you are not aware of where you only want to go right. It being God's will that you go right. (I don't believe this is a correct limit)
Another type of limit would be if you make a choice, to go down a certain path, that path has consequences or blessings which you will be subject to. (This is what I believe)
God wants us to go right, that is the path of blessing. He will even put it in our heart to do so, but we still to often choose the path to the left, that path has consequences which we will be subject to.

Right and left is my personal dig at the US political system. I just thought I would throw that in there for free.
 
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Radagast

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Fred is doing the task because he chooses to do the task.
Putting a locked door or a brain zapper he does not know about will not affect his desire to do what he wants to do.
It looks to me as if you are saying compatibilist free will is we do what we want not knowing that we have certain limits.

Compatibilist free will says that "free will" means doing what you want to do. This is compatible with 100% determinism as long as, at every point in time, the choice that you want to make and the choice that is predetermined for you to make are the same thing.

Of course, if you accept the compatibilist definition of free will, you can still either accept or deny determinism.

Like you have a choice to go right or left, but a limit has been placed on you that you are not aware of where you only want to go right. It being God's will that you go right.

I think I would agree with that as a summary of compatibilist free will + determinism.

Another type of limit would be if you make a choice, to go down a certain path, that path has consequences or blessings which you will be subject to.

I think that everyone believes that actions have consequences.

But it sounds like you are happy with a compatibilist definition of free will, while at the same time denying determinism. Am I understanding you correctly?
 
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aiki

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You seemed to imply it when you said,

"Whatever we may choose to do, God's ultimate will is accomplished. When playing a chess grandmaster, we may move as we like on the chess board, but he will always win."
~ Quote by: Aiki.
You said, whatever we may choose to do, .... he [GOD] will always win.

The chess analogy was an...analogy, not a statement of doctrine. It illustrates - in a limited way - the point I was making about God's ultimate sovereignty and our exercise of our freedom to choose, not that God is playing a game with us that He always wins. I've used this analogy many times to illustrate this same point, but you are the first to take from it the implication that you did.

Where did I say God has sovereignty exactly like man has sovereignty?

You wrote:

"Man has sovereignty just as God has sovereignty because we were made in His image."

I'm glad to know you don't actually think our sovereignty is equal or identical to God's.

Wow. Really? Do you truly believe that?

Scripture says,

"And it repented [i.e. sorrowed] the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6).

"The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy." (Psalms 147:11).

"But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6).

"...God is angry with the wicked every day." (Psalms 7:11).

You don't actually think these verse describe exactly what God feels or thinks, do you? They are approximations we can understand, but they don't accurately tell us what, in fact God, thinks and feels. God is perfect. This necessarily entails that He can be neither lessened nor improved by anything; it means that God doesn't need anything; it means that within the trinitarian Godhead, God has always been totally content and fulfilled. When the Bible, then, describes God as sorry, or sorrowful, or grieved, or angry, or pleased, it is painting God with a human brush so that we have some sense of what God thinks and feels. But He is not grieved as we understand it; He is not pleased as we understand being pleased; He is not angry in the way we are. The very worst thing we can do with these descriptions is assume God feels and thinks just like we do. He doesn't. He's not a human. Not even close.

Imagine a two-dimensional being who knew only width and height trying to understand and talk about a four-dimensional being. He wouldn't have any language, any frame of reference, but his own two-dimensional ones from which to do so. Whatever he said, then, about the four-dimensional being would always only ever be a two-dimensional approximation of what the four-dimensional being was like. This is the very same problem we face when we try to talk about God. He lives in a way for which we simply have no frame of reference. And so we must speak of Him from our own frame of reference. It is vital, though, that we never forget that this is what we are doing.

So, in light of the fact that God is perfect and that our best descriptions of Him necessarily fall well short of who He really is, I do think that what we do or don't do has no material effect upon Him.

Well, I do not believe Jesus doing a good work in a believer and finishing it to be a matter of fact for all believers (although one can read it that way if they want to see that).

Well, there are believers and then there are true believers. Not every person claiming to be a Christian actually is. In fact, I suspect the vast majority of people identifying as Christians are no such thing. Mostly, they are "tares," false converts, nominal adherents to the faith.

In other words, we can have confidence that the Lord Jesus who began a good work will finish it until the day of the Lord Jesus Christ if we hold to the conditional commands that He has given to us.

This isn't what the verse says, though, is it? It says nothing at all of the necessity of our contribution to God's "good work." It speaks only of God's faithfulness in bringing to completion the work He has begun in us.

Nowhere does Jesus, Paul, or any follower of Christ teach that a believer can do evil on any level and yet God will still save them.

??? Goodness! What a bizarre statement. To whom did Paul write letters? To the born-again believers in the Early Church. And what does he write to them? Does he just commend them for being all-perfected saints who never sinned? Absolutely not. In fact, he says this about himself:

Philippians 3:9
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;


Paul eschewed his own righteousness, knowing its imperfection (Ro. 7:17-24), and, instead, anchored his spiritual life, his relationship to God, upon Christ's perfect righteousness. This is the sole basis upon which any of us is ever accepted - and remain accepted - by God.

Paul also wrote,

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.


Paul admits here that he had not attained to spiritual perfection. But he continued on, forgetting past failures and focusing upon the "prize of the upward call of God." It is no surprise, then, that when he is writing his various letters, he is constantly urging his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to live better than they are. If Paul, the greatest contributor to the New Testament, was not an all-perfected saint in his daily living, quite obviously those to whom he wrote weren't either. And this is exactly what we see in Scripture. Paul had to address all sorts of moral, spiritual, and doctrinal issues the believers of the Early Church were having. But he begins his letters by clarifying that he is speaking to fellow believers, not wicked apostates, to weak and stumbling children of God, perhaps, but not those who had sinned themselves out of their salvation.

Why are the various epistles written by Peter and John also filled with injunctions to right living and doctrine? If the believers were already living holy, morally-perfect lives as true believers, why would they need the instructions of the apostles to do so? Clearly, they were not living as they should, yet both John and Peter acknowledge the recipients of their letters as genuine believers, not once-saved but now sinful and unsaved apostates.

When you read Philippians 2:13 that says God works in you to work of His pleasure, you also have to read verse 12 before that says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, it would not make any sense for God to tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if it was all GOD who took care of our salvation for us. We are told to overcome and endure in the faith.

You have got things here completely backward. Verse 13 explains how it is possible to fulfill the command of verse 12. We can only "work out our own salvation" after God has "worked in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure." And He has done so by imparting to us spiritual life in the Person of His Spirit, who regenerates us spiritually (Tit. 3:5, 6), thereby enabling us to "work out our own salvation." Our salvation is entirely God's doing, as Scripture makes crystal clear (Eph. 2:1-11), and it is only because this is true that we are able at all to "work out our salvation."

"Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).

Jude 1:24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,


Whatever you may think "keeping ourselves in the love of God" means, Jude is very explicit here that it is God (in the Person of Christ) who keeps us from stumbling and makes us to stand in His presence "blameless with great joy." This fits exactly right with what Paul wrote in Philippians 2:13, and Titus 3:5-6, and Romans 8:13, and 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24.

Well, it is written...

"And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).

And it is also written:

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.


The word "death" is a metaphor and is "like death" and not an exact parallel and identical of death in every single way. How do we know?

In the parable of the Prodigal Son, when the father stated: “‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was dead and has come to life again; he was lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.” (Luke 15:22-24) This concept betrays the Calvinistic perspective, because the son was alive, though dead in terms of separation.

When you must go to another book completely in order to explain what Paul means, it is a sure sign you've got the wrong end of the stick, that you are proof-texting. Paul explains in the following verses exactly what he means by "dead in trespasses and sins." We don't have to refer to an unrelated parable to understand Paul's meaning, we simply have to look at the context surrounding his words. And the context is clear that no one can, by dint of their own effort, totally apart from God, be saved. Every unsaved person is caught in the tri-fold grip of the World, the Flesh and the devil out of which only God can release them. This is what Paul means by "dead in trespasses and sins."

This is talking about "Initial Salvation" because it says we were washed by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. The washing and regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost is a one time event when a person first gets saved.

There is no such things as "initial salvation." No where does Scripture ever use such a phrase. There is only one spiritual birth just as there is only one physical birth. Our spiritual birth is no more "initial" than our physical birth is. One is born and that's that.
 
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Ronald

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The OT saints that had written God's Word did not do so against their own free will. God did not make them to be a certain way and nor did God spiritually regenerate random certain individuals of His choosing to do that.
Their will was turned toward God because God spoke to them, as He did with Saul who became Paul. What was Saul doing? Persecuting Christians willingly. Jesus' blinding appearance to him got his attention. What about Moses? He was reluctant to do God's will, tried to talk his way out of it, "Why send me, I'm not a good communicator ..." He was afraid. God enabled him and gave him much encouragement as He did throughout his life. What about Jonah? Was he willing at first to do God's will? No, he tried to escape. How about Abraham? He did not believe that at such an old age Sarah would give birth. So his free will went another way ... thought he would help God out a little. Most of the prophets were killed because the people did not want to hear bad news or judgment coming and the prophets themselves did not feel comfortable delivering it I'm sure.
We can do nothing without God.

I agree that GOD is the One who guides and draws us to Himself (who is salvation), but GOD does not force some to be saved and others to be not saved.
I didn't say force, I said he enables us and encourages us, enlightens us to the point where our thoughts understand that His way is the best --- then we say yes, as if it was our self generated idea.

No, He doesn't. If such were the case, then why was GOD grieved at the wickedness of man during the global flood? Could not have GOD just forced regenerated everyone to say "yes" and to be "willing" instead of being grieved by man's wickedness? In addition Noah was a preacher of righteousness. This means that Noah preached to those who perished in the global flood. Why do that if they were all condemned? Also, God told Jonah to preach that the city of Nineveh was going to be overthrown soon, and yet it did not happen because the people of Nineveh had repented. So we see that it based off what the people decide and not what GOD does to people in regards to their sin. God does not make some people to be saved and GOD does not make others to remain damned. That makes no sense in light of reading the Bible. Jesus said, "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me" (Matthew 23:37). So here we see Jerusalem thwarting the will of our Lord here. They would not let Him to gather them like a hen gathers it's chicks.
He was grieved seeing the wickedness of man. That judgment was purposed for the rest of us to remember. It was a lesson and a warning that He would once again destroy the world. When we see evil on a massive scale, then judgment on a massive scale is needed -- it was part of the plan. Noah preached also for fairness in judgment. To inform them of destruction coming, he warned them, told them to repent, all along knowing they would not. That was a lesson for us. As the gospel is preached, many are called but few are chosen.
FYI, I am NOT a Calvinist, not even four points, three points ... not at all.
I do believe heaven is filled with believers who had the seed planted in fertile soil. As the Parable of the Sower goes, some seed is thrown on shallow or rocky soil or just on the ground and is snatched away. Some grows a little, withers and dies and/or when the trials come their faith collapses.
I do believe the number in that book of life is fixed. It's a remnant 1/3 of the population. That's where we are today, 2.3+ billion. I also believe Israel will be enlightened during the Great Tribulation (Rom.11)


Being a slave to sin does not mean one cannot break sin's control.
Even unbelievers can stop sinning.
Did you ever hear of alcohol or drug free programs?

However, with Jesus we can be set free from all sin.

"But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof" (Romans 13:14).

But if men's hearts are waxed gross, it is a free will choice for them to choose to see and to hear and understand whereby God then can convert them and heal them. How so? It is written...

"For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them" (Matthew 13:15).
You believe being waxed gross, callous to God, with dull ears and blind as a state in which "free will" can function ... understand ... discern? I don't think so.

This makes no sense. How can you say you do not make a choice towards GOD and then declare that you have freedom? Especially when you believe that it is GOD who makes some to be slaves to do His good will and others to remained damned as a part of His will? If that is not what you are saying, then please explain in more detail.

I think you said something in an earlier post to the effect of if we don't have a free will than God created evil?
Question: Who put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden prior to his Creation of man. Who allowed Satan into the Garden to tempt them? We all have this wonderful vision of the Garden of Eden, Paradise being perfect. How perfect is an environment with the potential of evil to enter into it right in front of your face and the most evil spirit in there as well to tempt you?
What I am about to say is not the traditional view of the Fall. It was part of the plan. We cannot know what good is unless we know what evil is. We could not appreciate God and His attributes, His mercy, forgiveness, love, joy, peace, self control, patience, kindness, gentleness, hope, faith, etc IF WE DID NOT EXPERIENCE EVIL. IT WAS NECESSARY.

Isaiah 45:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing a]'>[a]well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

Isaiah 45:7New International Version (NIV)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'
 
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Ronald

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Choices have consequences. Some may try to deny or escape the consequences, sometimes they will succeed for a little while.
If someone breaks man's law, depending on the severity of the crime he may altogether forfeit his freewill. People in prison have very little freewill.
If you choose to serve your flesh, your flesh will become your master.
But it is still your choice that brought about the consequence.
They were willing servants of God.

God knew who would be saved and wrote there names in the Book of Life.
And even that is not completely settled as someone can have there name removed from the Book of Life.
See Revelation 22.

Choices have consequences.


A true statement. God can even use our mistakes.
But God does not make us make those mistakes.

No one comes to God on there own, God draws.
The sower sows the seed on all types of ground, some bears fruit, some doesn't.
The Seed is the Word of God, and we are born again by the Incorruptible Seed of the Word of God.
In Romans 1 it says "When they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, neither were they thankful, but they became vain in there imaginations and there foolish heart was darkened".
3 choices were made in that verse resulting in a disasterous consequence.

Exactly, we are not free to do what we want because there are consequences.


They were enabled, given enlightenment, the veil of blindness lifted so they could see.

Exactly, He knew and it is His prerogative to blot out any in the book. That’s also a warning not to be reckless and abusive to this gift of salvation.


Agreed. This is why I don’t believe in “irresistible grace”, one of Calvin’s point. Man, after seeing God’s miracles and His creation is without excuse. The Bible says, God draws all men to Himself, right? Obviously, some resist the calling. Dull ears, blind eyes. And this differentiation Calvin has between grace and common grace? Grace is grace. God says in Romans 1 that man is without excuse. It is impossible to resolve this Calvin vs. Armenian free will stuff. We don’t have knowledge of a person’s heart, what he is thinking or what God is actually doing in His life. The spiritual realm is mysterious and His ways are beyond our ability to comprehend.
 
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But it sounds like you are happy with a compatibilist definition of free will, while at the same time denying determinism. Am I understanding you correctly?
The problem I see with compatibilism is we often choose the wrong path. Even believers still act in fleshly ways. This is contrary to God's will for us.

And when I say "consequences" I don't just mean punishment.
The consequences I am referring to come from the sin itself.
A spouse who commits adultery could find themselves facing divorce.
A person who does drugs will most likely find themselves with a serious addiction.
A person who is into inappropriate content will find they have trouble not seeing others as sex objects.

These consequences can be very difficult to overcome.
But, of there own freewill they made these bad choices against God's will for them.
 
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The chess analogy was an...analogy, not a statement of doctrine. It illustrates - in a limited way - the point I was making about God's ultimate sovereignty and our exercise of our freedom to choose, not that God is playing a game with us that He always wins. I've used this analogy many times to illustrate this same point, but you are the first to take from it the implication that you did.

Well, do you believe God's ultimate sovereignty and our free will are not doctrines or teachings within the Bible? If so, then we are talking about doctrine. I still fail to see how I was wrong in pointing out what you said. You said God wins no matter what man chooses. This means that if man chooses, God wins. I do not agree with that. Granted, God will be victorious over the kingdom of this sinful world, but I do not think we should say that God wins whatever a person chooses (Which would include sin obviously).

You said:
You wrote:

"Man has sovereignty just as God has sovereignty because we were made in His image."

I'm glad to know you don't actually think our sovereignty is equal or identical to God's.

Well, I am not aware of any Christian who does believe that.

Anyways, my words were not making an exact parallel in reference to God's sovereignty and man's sovereignty. It would be kind of like saying, I have hair just as dogs have hair. This is not to say that a dog's hair is identical to my hair anything. This is just a general statement that both dogs and I both have hair (generally speaking).

You said:
You don't actually think these verse describe exactly what God feels or thinks, do you? They are approximations we can understand, but they don't accurately tell us what, in fact God, thinks and feels. God is perfect. This necessarily entails that He can be neither lessened nor improved by anything; it means that God doesn't need anything; it means that within the trinitarian Godhead, God has always been totally content and fulfilled. When the Bible, then, describes God as sorry, or sorrowful, or grieved, or angry, or pleased, it is painting God with a human brush so that we have some sense of what God thinks and feels. But He is not grieved as we understand it; He is not pleased as we understand being pleased; He is not angry in the way we are. The very worst thing we can do with these descriptions is assume God feels and thinks just like we do. He doesn't.

This has got to be the first time I have ever encountered somebody saying something this like this to me before. This is very strange. Honestly, what verse or passage leads you to this conclusion? Do you think GOD having emotion makes Him imperfect? Did not Jesus get angry? (See Mark 3:5).

You said:
He's not a human. Not even close.

I would like to tell you about a person named Jesus Christ. He is the God man. The second person of the Godhead or the Trinity came down into the flesh of a man through a virgin named Mary. He came to save us of our sins.

You said:
Imagine a two-dimensional being who knew only width and height trying to understand and talk about a four-dimensional being. He wouldn't have any language, any frame of reference, but his own two-dimensional ones from which to do so. Whatever he said, then, about the four-dimensional being would always only ever be a two-dimensional approximation of what the four-dimensional being was like. This is the very same problem we face when we try to talk about God. He lives in a way for which we simply have no frame of reference. And so we must speak of Him from our own frame of reference. It is vital, though, that we never forget that this is what we are doing.

I believe this is just human reasoning and philosophy and not anything that is taught within the Word of God. Your gonna have to bring up something in Scripture to support this kind of talk.

You said:
So, in light of the fact that God is perfect and that our best descriptions of Him necessarily fall well short of who He really is, I do think that what we do or don't do has no material effect upon Him.

We are told that we can grieve the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 4:30).
The Holy Spirit is GOD just as much as Jesus is GOD and the Father is GOD.
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7).

You said:
Well, there are believers and then there are true believers. Not every person claiming to be a Christian actually is. In fact, I suspect the vast majority of people identifying as Christians are no such thing. Mostly, they are "tares," false converts, nominal adherents to the faith.

Narrow is the way that leads unto life and few be there that finds it (Matthew 7:14).
You said:
This isn't what the verse says, though, is it? It says nothing at all of the necessity of our contribution to God's "good work." It speaks only of God's faithfulness in bringing to completion the work He has begun in us.

But Scripture has to be read as a whole. You are not doing that. If that was the only verse in your Bible, then you might be onto something. But it is not the only verse in the Bible. Scripture has to be read in light of other Scripture. You are not doing that because you seek to look at a message that is more comforting in your view. As I shown you before, 1 Corinthians 10 says,

4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness."
(1 Corinthians 10:4-5).

11 "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall."
(1 Corinthians 10:11-12).

Why say the believer take heed lest he fall if such a thing was not possible?

Jason0047 said:
Nowhere does Jesus, Paul, or any follower of Christ teach that a believer can do evil on any level and yet God will still save them.
You said:
??? Goodness! What a bizarre statement. To whom did Paul write letters? To the born-again believers in the Early Church. And what does he write to them? Does he just commend them for being all-perfected saints who never sinned? Absolutely not.

Not true.

Here are Verses on the Error of Christians saying they cannot walk uprightly:

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

You said:
In fact, he says this about himself:

Philippians 3:9
9 and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith;

Right. We are not under the Old Law given exclusively to Israel; However, we are under the laws or commands given to us by Jesus Christ and His followers.

Obviously Paul was not teaching a sin and still be saved gospel in Philippians 3:9. For he says later.

17 "Brethren, be followers together of me, and mark them which walk so as ye have us for an ensample.
18 (For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ:
19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)" (Philippians 3:17-19).

Faith includes works. For faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
For James says,
"Yea, a man may say, You have faith, and I have works: show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

In other words, James is saying he will show you his faith by his works. This means that works is a part of faith.

This makes sense because the Bible says there is a "work of faith" (1 Thessalonians 1:3) (2 Thessalonians 1:11). There is also a Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2), the Perfect Law of Liberty (James 1:25), and the Royal Law (James 2:8). Even believing Jesus Christ is a commandment (1 John 3:23). So you really cannot escape God's laws. Jesus even commands or tells His disciples, "Have faith in God" (Mark 11:22). So faith is a commandment, too. You cannot escape God's laws. They are a part of the New Testament or the faith. Granted, we are not justified by keeping Law alone. For if such were the case, we would all be doomed because we all had sin on our past record. That past record can only be wiped out by God's grace (By believing in His death and resurrection). If we sin again, do we do a good work to get clean or forgiven? Most certainly not. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. But on the other hand, grace is not a license for immorality (See Jude 1:4 NIV).

You said:
Paul eschewed his own righteousness, knowing its imperfection (Ro. 7:17-24), and, instead, anchored his spiritual life, his relationship to God, upon Christ's perfect righteousness. This is the sole basis upon which any of us is ever accepted - and remain accepted - by God.

No. Paul is talking from his perspective as a Pharisee in Romans 7:14-24.
In Romans 8:3-4 Paul says our walking after the Spirit fulfills the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the righteous aspect of the Law). This would be the Moral Law (like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal, etc.). For loving our neighbor as a part of the emphasized teachings of the New Testament from Jesus and His followers fulfills the Moral Law (See Romans 13:8-10).

You said:
Paul also wrote,

Philippians 3:12-14
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me.
13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind and reaching forward to those things which are ahead,
14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus.

This may be so; Yet, Paul also says prior,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

You said:
Paul admits here that he had not attained to spiritual perfection. But he continued on, forgetting past failures and focusing upon the "prize of the upward call of God."

This does not mean Paul struggled with sin as you think he did in Romans 7:14-24. Paul said this while he was a Pharisee and not as a Christian. For he asks the question, who can deliver me from this body of death? Paul then thanks Jesus. In Romans 6:2, Paul asks the question, "How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?" This means how can we still live in sin if we are dead to sin's effects or power or hold. For have you not heard about the believer who stopped smoking, or drinking when they came to Christ? Have you not heard about the sudden transformation of believers?

You said:
It is no surprise, then, that when he is writing his various letters, he is constantly urging his fellow brothers and sisters in Christ to live better than they are.

Which proves my point and not yours because if it did not matter how one lived in the faith as a part of one's salvation then why encourage them to live better? It would be pointless.

You said:
If Paul, the greatest contributor to the New Testament, was not an all-perfected saint in his daily living, quite obviously those to whom he wrote weren't either. And this is exactly what we see in Scripture. Paul had to address all sorts of moral, spiritual, and doctrinal issues the believers of the Early Church were having. But he begins his letters by clarifying that he is speaking to fellow believers, not wicked apostates, to weak and stumbling children of God, perhaps, but not those who had sinned themselves out of their salvation.

You are not making any sense. Paul could not tell others to stop certain sins if he himself did not do so. Otherwise he would be a hypocrite. He says in 1 Corinthians 5:9 not to have company with fornicators.

You said:
Why are the various epistles written by Peter and John also filled with injunctions to right living and doctrine? If the believers were already living holy, morally-perfect lives as true believers, why would they need the instructions of the apostles to do so? Clearly, they were not living as they should, yet both John and Peter acknowledge the recipients of their letters as genuine believers, not once-saved but now sinful and unsaved apostates.

Please quote me a Scripture verse or passage where Jesus, Paul, John or any of the apostles had said that a believer can live sinful lives and be saved.

You said:
You have got things here completely backward.

Actually no. You have things backwards. See Romans 6:1-2, and Romans 6:12.

You said:
Verse 13 explains how it is possible to fulfill the command of verse 12. We can only "work out our own salvation" after God has "worked in us both to will and to do of His good pleasure." And He has done so by imparting to us spiritual life in the Person of His Spirit, who regenerates us spiritually (Tit. 3:5, 6), thereby enabling us to "work out our own salvation." Our salvation is entirely God's doing, as Scripture makes crystal clear (Eph. 2:1-11), and it is only because this is true that we are able at all to "work out our salvation."

We do need a spiritual regeneration or new birth to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. But you are missing the whole point of the word "your" in the sentence. Work out YOUR salvation. We are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Why tremble if it is not talking about fear. Titus 3 as I told you before is talking about "Initial Salvation" because it says we are washed by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. You seemed to ignore that point I brought up. Ephesians 2:1-11 is also talking about "Initial Salvation" because it says Christ has quickened us. In Ephesians 2:1, Christ quickening us is a one time event.
You said:
Jude 1:24
24 Now to Him who is able to keep you from stumbling, and to make you stand in the presence of His glory blameless with great joy,

Yes, GOD can keep you from stumbling into sin IF....IF you employ or put into action those verses that teach a believer can overcome serious sin in this life.

You said:
Whatever you may think "keeping ourselves in the love of God" means, Jude is very explicit here that it is God (in the Person of Christ) who keeps us from stumbling and makes us to stand in His presence "blameless with great joy." This fits exactly right with what Paul wrote in Philippians 2:13, and Titus 3:5-6, and Romans 8:13, and 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24.

I never said that it was not God who can not keep us from stumbling. But I do not think you truly believe that. Your case before was that Paul was a sinner as a part of Romans 7. Why are you now arguing that a believer can not stumble into sin? It seems like you are contradicting yourself, unless you can explain it.

You said:
And it is also written:

John 6:44
44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.

And you need to read verse 45. It says,

"It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." (John 6:45).

The context of God the Father drawing a person is they have HEARD and they have LEARNED of the Father. They are the ones who come unto Jesus.

You said:
When you must go to another book completely in order to explain what Paul means, it is a sure sign you've got the wrong end of the stick, that you are proof-texting. Paul explains in the following verses exactly what he means by "dead in trespasses and sins." We don't have to refer to an unrelated parable to understand Paul's meaning, we simply have to look at the context surrounding his words. And the context is clear that no one can, by dint of their own effort, totally apart from God, be saved. Every unsaved person is caught in the tri-fold grip of the World, the Flesh and the devil out of which only God can release them. This is what Paul means by "dead in trespasses and sins."

Just your saying it is so does not mean anything. You have to prove your case with the Bible. Oh, and the Bible breathes as a cohesive whole. So your accusation is simply unfounded. For have you never heard of cross references before?

You said:
There is no such things as "initial salvation."

So you do not believe a person can be initially saved by calling unto the Lord to save them?

You said:
No where does Scripture ever use such a phrase.

The Scriptures do not use the word "Bible" but Christians do not have a problem using such a word.

You said:
There is only one spiritual birth just as there is only one physical birth. Our spiritual birth is no more "initial" than our physical birth is. One is born and that's that.

No. When one is born again, it is a one time event of being born. You are not continually being born again over and over in a continual state. It is a one time event.
 
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Bible Highlighter

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Their will was turned toward God because God spoke to them, as He did with Saul who became Paul. What was Saul doing? Persecuting Christians willingly. Jesus' blinding appearance to him got his attention. What about Moses? He was reluctant to do God's will, tried to talk his way out of it, "Why send me, I'm not a good communicator ..." He was afraid. God enabled him and gave him much encouragement as He did throughout his life. What about Jonah? Was he willing at first to do God's will? No, he tried to escape. How about Abraham? He did not believe that at such an old age Sarah would give birth. So his free will went another way ... thought he would help God out a little. Most of the prophets were killed because the people did not want to hear bad news or judgment coming and the prophets themselves did not feel comfortable delivering it I'm sure.
We can do nothing without God.


I didn't say force, I said he enables us and encourages us, enlightens us to the point where our thoughts understand that His way is the best --- then we say yes, as if it was our self generated idea.


He was grieved seeing the wickedness of man. That judgment was purposed for the rest of us to remember. It was a lesson and a warning that He would once again destroy the world. When we see evil on a massive scale, then judgment on a massive scale is needed -- it was part of the plan. Noah preached also for fairness in judgment. To inform them of destruction coming, he warned them, told them to repent, all along knowing they would not. That was a lesson for us. As the gospel is preached, many are called but few are chosen.
FYI, I am NOT a Calvinist, not even four points, three points ... not at all.
I do believe heaven is filled with believers who had the seed planted in fertile soil. As the Parable of the Sower goes, some seed is thrown on shallow or rocky soil or just on the ground and is snatched away. Some grows a little, withers and dies and/or when the trials come their faith collapses.
I do believe the number in that book of life is fixed. It's a remnant 1/3 of the population. That's where we are today, 2.3+ billion. I also believe Israel will be enlightened during the Great Tribulation (Rom.11)



You believe being waxed gross, callous to God, with dull ears and blind as a state in which "free will" can function ... understand ... discern? I don't think so.



I think you said something in an earlier post to the effect of if we don't have a free will than God created evil?
Question: Who put the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden prior to his Creation of man. Who allowed Satan into the Garden to tempt them? We all have this wonderful vision of the Garden of Eden, Paradise being perfect. How perfect is an environment with the potential of evil to enter into it right in front of your face and the most evil spirit in there as well to tempt you?
What I am about to say is not the traditional view of the Fall. It was part of the plan. We cannot know what good is unless we know what evil is. We could not appreciate God and His attributes, His mercy, forgiveness, love, joy, peace, self control, patience, kindness, gentleness, hope, faith, etc IF WE DID NOT EXPERIENCE EVIL. IT WAS NECESSARY.

Isaiah 45:7English Standard Version (ESV)

7 I form light and create darkness;
I make well-being and create calamity;
I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Isaiah 45:7King James Version (KJV)
7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7New American Standard Bible (NASB)
7 The One forming light and creating darkness,
Causing a]'>[a]well-being and creating calamity;
I am the Lord who does all these.

Isaiah 45:7New International Version (NIV)
7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the Lord, do all these things.

Isaiah 45:7Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

7 Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I [am] Jehovah, doing all these things.'

Before I try to tackle the verses you have put forth, I need to figure out what you believe.

Do you believe that a believer cannot say "yes" to GOD for salvation unless they had a spiritual regeneration? Yes, or no?

Is this spiritual regeneration based upon anything that the individual in the present or what they may do in the future if God regenerates them? Yes, or no?

Do you believe man has free will to choose GOD? Yes, or no?
 
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bling

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bling

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This is an odd things to assert about God. It seems quite evident to me that God must be in complete ultimate control of everything in order to be God. If there is anything operating outside His ultimate control, then God cannot be God.
.

Are you saying God’s Love is not great enough to allow humans to have a very limited amount of autonomous free will in order to allow some humans the ability to fulfill their earthly objective, because that “allowing” would somehow make God not God?
 
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SkyWriting

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We know God knows everything and His plans will be followed, but that does not mean God plans out every detail.

I guess I should check on that then:

Job 12:10
In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Proverbs 19:21
Many are the plans in the mind of a man, but it is the purpose of the Lord that will stand.

Proverbs 16:9
The heart of man plans his way, but the Lord establishes his steps.

Ephesians 1:11
In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you that is not common to man. God is faithful, and he will not let you be tempted beyond your ability, but with the temptation he will also provide the way of escape, that you may be able to endure it.

Isaiah 45:7
I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the Lord, who does all these things.

Psalm 22:28
For kingship belongs to the Lord, and he rules over the nations.

The list is pretty extensive and I don't find any exceptions listed.

Col 1
16For in Him all things were created, things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities. All things were created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together.

1480862940328
 
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Before I try to tackle the verses you have put forth, I need to figure out what you believe.

Do you believe that a believer cannot say "yes" to GOD for salvation unless they had a spiritual regeneration? Yes, or no?

Is this spiritual regeneration based upon anything that the individual in the present or what they may do in the future if God regenerates them? Yes, or no?

Do you believe man has free will to choose GOD? Yes, or no?

I’ve posted 20 pages of what I believe concerning this topic and that wasn’t enough? So three questions is gonna do it?

1. Your first question seems like a trick question, it’s not formulated correctly. I can’t answer yes or no! Believers are regenerated or in the process of being regenerated. If the person believes in the gospel, are there more qualifications required than that? God’s drawing power, his lifting the veil, enlightening us through His Word is not anything we are able to do. We do have a responsibility to cooperate. We do need to nourish the seed that was planted. The Parable of the Sower informs us that the soil of our hearts needs to be fertile, prepared and also nourished with the Word before it produces fruit. Many people say yes but really don’t believe fully or it may be a superficial belief or they don’t follow through with church and study, etc. So we don’t know a person’s heart or what God is doing with them until we see their fruit. We don’t know where in that process they are.

2. No. Salvation is a gift, not dependent on anything we do to initiate this. God predestined us, called us, sanctified us, justified us by His grace, through faith, according to His foreknowledge. And soon He will glorify as well. We are unable to jumpstart this process by our own independent means .

“ For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast.” Ephesians 2:8, 9 (NKJV)

“ And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.” Romans 8:28-30 (NASB)

“Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, to obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in the fullest measure.” 1 Peter 1:1, 2 (NASB)

“ He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,” Ephesians 1:5 (NASB)

3. In the many pages I’ve argued about “free will”. It is not free, nothing is free. There is a cost and Christ paid for it. We are born in bondage to sin and Satan. Then when we become believers, we become slaves (servants) of God. He chose us first and enables us to be in agreement by spiritually removing our blindness. You can’t choose God without the blinders removed, no matter how willing your are
 
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