I don't recall ever writing that when we sin, God thinks He wins...
You gave me that impression when you said,
"Whatever we may choose to do, God's ultimate will is accomplished. When playing a chess grandmaster, we may move as we like on the chess board, but he will always win."
~ Quote by: Aiki.
You said, whatever we may choose to do, .... he [GOD] will always win.
Jason0047 said:
Do you believe in Unconditional Election?
You said:
By what you said so far it sound like you believe in it.
Are you a Calvinist?
You said:
My questions were in response to your claim to have sovereignty in the same way God does. I did not think you were denying God was sovereign.
Where did I say God has sovereignty exactly like man has sovereignty?
Side Note: Just because I said God created man in his image does not mean I was suggesting that the sovereignty of God was identical to man's sovereignty.
Jason0047 said:
Man has rule or sovereignty to make decisions outside of the things of God. The world system or world order (i.e. people of this world) you see around you are not that way because God wanted them to be that way.
You said:
Not entirely, no. But Scripture is very clear about God's integral role in setting up and taking down rulers and their regimes (Ro. 13:1).
It doesn't matter if man has entire or full sovereignty. The fact is that man has sovereignty or rule over things. You said before,
"Do you control the universe? No. Do you control the existence of every person on the planet? No, you don't. Do you control whether or not you'll contract some fatal disease, or die in some horrible accident? No. God, though, has sovereign control over all of these things."~ Quote by: Aiki.
To answer your question #1:
"Do you control the universe?"
My answer: Yes, and no. I do not control the universe entirely but I do have control over it to an extent by what I do. For example: I can influence others to be loving and good. These other people are a part of the universe. So I am having some kind of control. When I drive a car, I am in control of the vehicle. The vehicle is a part of this universe.
To answer your question #2:
"Do you control the existence of every person on the planet?"
My answer: No, but I can influence or have some kind of control for good over some people's lives here on this Earth.
To answer your question #3:
Do you control whether or not you'll contract some fatal disease, or die in some horrible accident?
My answer: Yes, and no. It depends on the circumstance. I can read about certain places or things that are prone to causing fatal diseases and avoid partaking in them (Especially if the risk seems high). I can drive responsibly and live in a safer driving area and help to limit my chances of getting into a horrible accident. For example: Living on "Put-in-Bay island, in Ohio instead of say "Houston, Texas" would increase your chances of not getting into an accident. Living in the mountains and refusing to ride in a car or go near roads would also increase your chances of not getting into a horrible car accident, as well.
We can even pray for protection every day. Imagine that. God can actually protect us if we ask for such protection. Most do not ask so they do not receive.
You said:
I don't think God sees our doings in terms of winning or losing. God is perfect and this entails that He is neither diminished (He loses) or improved (He wins) by what we do or don't do.
Well, you were the one who brought it up.
For you said,
"Whatever we may choose to do, God's ultimate will is accomplished. When playing a chess grandmaster, we may move as we like on the chess board, but he will always win."
~ Quote by: Aiki.
You said:
What we do ultimately has no material effect on Him.
Wow. Really? Do you truly believe that?
Scripture says,
"And it
repented [i.e. sorrowed] the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." (Genesis 6:6).
"The LORD taketh pleasure in them that fear him, in those that hope in his mercy." (Psalms 147:11).
"But without faith
it is impossible to please
him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and
that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." (Hebrews 11:6).
"...God is angry
with the wicked every day." (Psalms 7:11).
You said:
While I would not classify myself as a Molinist, I do believe God has "middle knowledge" or that He knows every possible outcome and solution and He works out the best possible scenario for the ultimate good for all.
"Woe unto thee, Chorazin! woe unto thee, Bethsaida! for if the mighty works, which were done in you, had been done in Tyre and Sidon, they would have repented long ago in sackcloth and ashes." (Matthew 11:21).
I believe GOD did not save Tyre and Sidon by showing them miracles because they simply would not endure or overcome in their faith with the LORD. However, they would have repented (i.e. ask God for forgiveness - i.e. initial salvation). Jesus used the what if scenario with Tyre and Sidon to show how the Jew's hearts were hardened despite the miracles that He was showing them.
But ultimately it comes down to the individual and their heart. GOD knows who is going to accept Him in every possible scenario or what if situation or possible world or probability. GOD is in the saving business. Everyone will be to blame for their own choices and not GOD.
You said:
I don't believe that. Whatever steps toward God I am able to take, whatever obedience I am capable of, ultimately God has enabled it (Phil. 1:6; 2:13; Jude 1:24).
In regards to Philippians 1:6:
Well, I do not believe Jesus doing a good work in a believer and finishing it to be a matter of fact for all believers (although one can read it that way if they want to see that). How so? Because 2 Corinthians 10 says this,
4 "And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.
5 But with many of them God was not well pleased: for they were overthrown in the wilderness.
6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.
7 Neither be ye idolaters, as
were some of them; as it is written, The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.
8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand.
9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents.
10 Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer.
11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come." (2 Corinthians 10:4-11).
In other words, we can have confidence that the Lord Jesus who began a good work will finish it until the day of the Lord Jesus Christ if we hold to the conditional commands that He has given to us. If we go back and break God's commands, the condition then changes. In other words, Philippians 1:6 is context to obedience and not disobedience. Nowhere does Jesus, Paul, or any follower of Christ teach that a believer can do evil on any level and yet God will still save them. Yes, God is aware of men's hearts. He ultimately knows what they will do. He saved Samson and he did not appear to be this great and holy guy. But in the end, God knew Samson's heart. God knew that Samson would be good in His future Kingdom.
As for Philippians 2:13:
When you read Philippians 2:13 that says God works in you to work of His pleasure, you also have to read verse 12 before that says, work out your salvation with fear and trembling. In other words, it would not make any sense for God to tell us to work out our salvation with fear and trembling if it was all GOD who took care of our salvation for us. We are told to overcome and endure in the faith.
As for Jude 1:24 that says, "Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present
you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,"
You also have to read the following passage in context,
3 "Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort
you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not." (Jude 1:3-5).
"Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain," (Jude 1:11).
6 "Then the Lord said to Cain, “Why are you angry? Why is your face downcast?
7 If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.” (Genesis 4:6-7) (NIV).
"
Keep yourselves in the love of God,
looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life." (Jude 1:21).
You said:
True yielding (not a fleshly piety) to God is something He makes possible in me; it is not a work of my flesh, of my will, but the consequence of God's transforming work in me.
Well, it is written...
"And ye shall seek me, and find
me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart." (Jeremiah 29:13).
You said:
The apostle Paul disagrees with you:
Ephesians 2:1-6
1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins,
2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience,
3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us,
5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved),
6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
Can a dead man do anything? No. Can those who are dead spiritually act positively toward God without His aid? No. They're spiritually dead. Without life. Incapable of spiritual activity. And what's more, these spiritually dead people are caught in the grip of the World, the Flesh, and the devil. And this is why God - not us - must act to redeem us. If He does not, no one can be saved.
The word "death" is a metaphor and is "like death" and not an exact parallel and identical of death in every single way. How do we know?
In the parable of the Prodigal Son, when the father stated: “‘Quickly bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet; and bring the fattened calf, kill it, and let us eat and celebrate; for this son of mine was
dead and has
come to life again; he was
lost and has been found.’ And they began to celebrate.” (Luke 15:22-24) This concept betrays the Calvinistic perspective, because the son was alive, though dead in terms of
separation.
1) Indeed, no one seeks God, so God seeks man. (Luke 19:10)
2) Man is dead in
trespasses, not in
consciousness. (Eph. 2:1)
3) Regeneration is alone reserved for those
in Christ. (Eph. 1:13)
4) Faith comes from hearing the Gospel preached. (Romans 10:17)
Romans 6:11 states: “Even so consider yourselves to be
dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.” If being dead
in sin means one can’t respond to God then does being dead
to sin mean that the Christian cannot respond to sin?
"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you,
that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:" (Deuteronomy 30:19).
You said:
Titus 3:3-5
3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.
4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared,
5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
This is talking about "Initial Salvation" because it says we were washed by the regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost. The washing and regeneration and renewing of the Holy Ghost is a one time event when a person first gets saved.
You said:
2 Timothy 2:25-26 (NKJV)
25 in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth,
26 and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.
How does God grant men repentance? By force regenerating them? No. By GOD convicting them of their sin.
8 "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;" (John 16:8-9).
Source used:
Examining Calvinism