1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 Isn't A Pre-Tribulation Rapture, Don't Be Deceived!

[Truth7t7]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day", As Jesus Christ Clearly Taught In John 6:40, John 11:23-24.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Don't Be Deceived By The Ole Bait And Switch Trick.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

 

[Strathos]

The idea of a Pre-Tribulation rapture has always seemed sketchy to me.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Where does the coming of 1 Thess. 4 take place? Answer: In the air — v. 17. (Nothing about being on earth in power and judgment.)

 

[faroukfarouk]

Who are the objects of the coming of 1 Thess. 4? Answer: those who are dead in Christ and believers that are alive and remain — v. 17. (They are objects of His grace and love and mercy; nothing about God punishing His enemies.)

 

[SeventyOne]

So, the tribulation saints who are resurrected in Rev 20:4 and the evil dead who are resurrected 1,000 years later in Rev 20:5 also all take place together on this same last day ever, despite being 1,000 years apart?

It's funny, you see 3 clear instances of people being resurrected, and they are very specific and do not overlap.

1. The living and dead in Christ. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
2. The dead in Christ from the Tribulation. (Rev 20:4)
3. The wicked. (Rev 20:5)

Ever wonder when those resurrected to reign with Christ in Revelation 20:4, why it specifies these are those who were beheaded and did not receive the mark, why it excludes all the other dead believers from all the other centuries? It's because there aren't any others. When the living and dead are raptured prior to the trib, there are exactly zero dead in Christ heading into the Tribulation.

 

[Andy centek]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day", As Jesus Christ Clearly Taught In John 6:40, John 11:23-24.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Don't Be Deceived By The Ole Bait And Switch Trick.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

 

[DavidPT]

So, the tribulation saints who are resurrected in Rev 20:4 and the evil dead who are resurrected 1,000 years later in Rev 20:5 also all take place together on this same last day ever, despite being 1,000 years apart?

It's funny, you see 3 clear instances of people being resurrected, and they are very specific and do not overlap.

1. The living and dead in Christ. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
2. The dead in Christ from the Tribulation. (Rev 20:4)
3. The wicked. (Rev 20:5)

Ever wonder when those resurrected to reign with Christ in Revelation 20:4, why it specifies these are those who were beheaded and did not receive the mark, why it excludes all the other dead believers from all the other centuries? It's because there aren't any others. When the living and dead are raptured prior to the trib, there are exactly zero dead in Christ heading into the Tribulation.

Though I agree with some of your post having to do with the thousand years dividing these resurrections, the mistake you are making above has to do with 1 and 2 in your list. Those are referring to the same group, and not that #1 happens 7 years or so earlier, followed by #2 some 7 years or so later, followed by the resurrection of the wicked a thousand years after that. That equals 3 resurrections total, yet Revelation 20 only makes mention of 2 resurrections, the first resurrection, and the resurrection when the lost live again after the thousand years have finished. So 1 Thess 4:16-17 is clearly meaning the first resurrection, as per (Rev 20:4). And no one that I'm aware of would place the timing of Rev 20:4 meaning before the great tribulation.

 

[LastSeven]

So, the tribulation saints who are resurrected in Rev 20:4 and the evil dead who are resurrected 1,000 years later in Rev 20:5 also all take place together on this same last day ever, despite being 1,000 years apart?

It's funny, you see 3 clear instances of people being resurrected, and they are very specific and do not overlap.

1. The living and dead in Christ. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
2. The dead in Christ from the Tribulation. (Rev 20:4)
3. The wicked. (Rev 20:5)

Ever wonder when those resurrected to reign with Christ in Revelation 20:4, why it specifies these are those who were beheaded and did not receive the mark, why it excludes all the other dead believers from all the other centuries? It's because there aren't any others. When the living and dead are raptured prior to the trib, there are exactly zero dead in Christ heading into the Tribulation.

Everybody takes part in the last day resurrection, which is the second resurrection. Both the righteous and the wicked. This is the main event, what we're all waiting for.

Of course if you think the first resurrection is a bodily resurrection then that will sound like nonsense to you. That's your mental block. Nothing will make sense as long as you believe that.

 

[DavidPT]

Everybody takes part in the last day resurrection, which is the second resurrection. Both the righteous and the wicked. This is the main event, what we're all waiting for.

Of course if you think the first resurrection is a bodily resurrection then that will sound like nonsense to you. That's your mental block. Nothing will make sense as long as you believe that.

That couldn't possibly be correct. The text indicates it is the rest of the dead who don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. The text does not say that those that have part in the first resurrection, that they too don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. But if I'm wrong, show where it says those things in the text, or admit you're adding to the text things not present in the text.

 

[SeventyOne]

Though I agree with some of your post having to do with the thousand years dividing these resurrections, the mistake you are making above has to do with 1 and 2 in your list. Those are referring to the same group, and not that #1 happens 7 years or so earlier, followed by #2 some 7 years or so later, followed by the resurrection of the wicked a thousand years after that. That equals 3 resurrections total, yet Revelation 20 only makes mention of 2 resurrections, the first resurrection, and the resurrection when the lost live again after the thousand years have finished. So 1 Thess 4:16-17 is clearly meaning the first resurrection, as per (Rev 20:4). And no one that I'm aware of would place the timing of Rev 20:4 meaning before the great tribulation.

It makes mention of two SPECIFIC resurrections.

1. Those "who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands". This is a very specific group of people.

2. The rest of the dead a thousand years later, who we find out elsewhere are the unsaved. Neither would cover dear saved granny who died 30 years ago.

In contrast, the resurrection that Paul mentions has none of the criteria listed in these resurrections.

 

[LastSeven]

That couldn't possibly be correct. The text indicates it is the rest of the dead who don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. The text does not say that those that have part in the first resurrection, that they too don't live again until after the thousand years are finished. But if I'm wrong, show where it says those things in the text, or admit you're adding to the text things not present in the text.

Look again. The text does not say that "only" the rest rise in the second resurrection. It simply says that the rest don't rise until the second resurrection. In other words, it leaves room for the righteous to take part in both resurrections.

In fact, the scripture tells us very clearly that there will be a resurrection for both the righteous and the wicked. And we know it can't be the first, so it must be the second.

Acts 24:15
and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.

 

[SeventyOne]

Everybody takes part in the last day resurrection, which is the second resurrection. Both the righteous and the wicked. This is the main event, what we're all waiting for.

Of course if you think the first resurrection is a bodily resurrection then that will sound like nonsense to you. That's your mental block. Nothing will make sense as long as you believe that.

Thank God for mental blocks that keep me from error.

 

[Truth7t7]

So, the tribulation saints who are resurrected in Rev 20:4 and the evil dead who are resurrected 1,000 years later in Rev 20:5 also all take place together on this same last day ever, despite being 1,000 years apart?

It's funny, you see 3 clear instances of people being resurrected, and they are very specific and do not overlap.

1. The living and dead in Christ. (1 Thess 4:16-17)
2. The dead in Christ from the Tribulation. (Rev 20:4)
3. The wicked. (Rev 20:5)

Ever wonder when those resurrected to reign with Christ in Revelation 20:4, why it specifies these are those who were beheaded and did not receive the mark, why it excludes all the other dead believers from all the other centuries? It's because there aren't any others. When the living and dead are raptured prior to the trib, there are exactly zero dead in Christ heading into the Tribulation.

You assume there will be a 1000 year kingdom on this earth?

Jesus Returns " Immediately after the tribulation" Matthew 24:29-31

Jesus returns in the resurrection, final judgment, eternal life, eternal kingdom. Matthew 25:31-46

This existing earth is dissolved by the Lords fire at his appearance/return.

2 Peter 3:10-13, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-8, Malachi 3:2, Luke 17:29-30, 1 Corinthians 3:13

There will be no 1000 year kingdom on this earth to follow the return of Jesus Christ.

"Eternity Begins"

 

[Andy centek]

The resurrection of the dead. which dead? The physical dead or the spiritual dead. There have been, in the so-called New Testament; which is incorrect, two resurrections already. First, the dead arose when Jesus was crucified, then the dead to the world after He was raised.
Mat 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the Spirit.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Here then is the first resurrection of the dead given in the last part of the Old Testament, Matthew.

Eph 4:8-9 Wherefore He said When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Therefore one must not think that the only gathering of the true saints is in the future event to so many take out of context from Paul's writings. The rapture that is so commonly talked of in the churches of today is a false doctrine that has gained much adherence to. The true Saint, the Elect of God, are resurrected daily.

2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If then the the true saint is resurrected and set with Christ Jesus in His kingdom, why are these false teachers teaching some sort of gathering unto the Lord in the air? This false teaching has gained much adherence to. Beware! One is treated by the Lord in the way the believe.

When a true believer in Jesus Christ is given the Holy Spirit to guide them, they are one of the Elect of God. Choose whom you will to follow. I pray for the following to the teachings of the Holy Spirit. The choice is each ones to make.

Andy Centek

 

[LastSeven]

The resurrection of the dead. which dead? The physical dead or the spiritual dead. There have been, in the so-called New Testament; which is incorrect, two resurrections already. First, the dead arose when Jesus was crucified, then the dead to the world after He was raised.
Mat 27:50-53 Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the Spirit.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Here then is the first resurrection of the dead given in the last part of the Old Testament, Matthew.

Eph 4:8-9 Wherefore He said When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Therefore one must not think that the only gathering of the true saints is in the future event to so many take out of context from Paul's writings. The rapture that is so commonly talked of in the churches of today is a false doctrine that has gained much adherence to. The true Saint, the Elect of God, are resurrected daily.

2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If then the the true saint is resurrected and set with Christ Jesus in His kingdom, why are these false teachers teaching some sort of gathering unto the Lord in the air? This false teaching has gained much adherence to. Beware! One is treated by the Lord in the way the believe.

When a true believer in Jesus Christ is given the Holy Spirit to guide them, they are one of the Elect of God. Choose whom you will to follow. I pray for the following to the teachings of the Holy Spirit. The choice is each ones to make.

Andy Centek

The resurrection of Jesus is the first resurrection, and all those who believe in him take part in that same resurrection.

Ephesians 2:4-6
But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus

Just as we were crucified with him (figuratively speaking of course) we were also raised with him (again figuratively speaking). This is the first resurrection, and all those who take part in this resurrection (those who believe in Jesus) don't have to fear the lake of fire.

 

[Truth7t7]

Mat 27:50-53 [/B]Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the Spirit.
And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Here then is the first resurrection of the dead given in the last part of the Old Testament, Matthew.

Eph 4:8-9 Wherefore He said When He ascended up on high, He led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. Now that He ascended, what is it but that He also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

Therefore one must not think that the only gathering of the true saints is in the future event to so many take out of context from Paul's writings. The rapture that is so commonly talked of in the churches of today is a false doctrine that has gained much adherence to. The true Saint, the Elect of God, are resurrected daily.

2Co_5:8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.

If then the the true saint is resurrected and set with Christ Jesus in His kingdom, why are these false teachers teaching some sort of gathering unto the Lord in the air? This false teaching has gained much adherence to. Beware! One is treated by the Lord in the way the believe.

When a true believer in Jesus Christ is given the Holy Spirit to guide them, they are one of the Elect of God. Choose whom you will to follow. I pray for the following to the teachings of the Holy Spirit. The choice is each ones to make.

Andy Centek

Those that rose from the dead at the death of Christ did not partake in "The Resurrection Of The Dead" as their bodies saw a physical death after this event.

The future "Resurrection Of The Dead" will see immortal bodies 1 Corinthians 15:52-54, when "Death Is Swallowed Up In Victory"

 

[LastSeven]

It makes mention of two SPECIFIC resurrections.

1. Those "who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands". This is a very specific group of people.

Yup. It's the righteous people.

Everybody in the world belongs to one of two very specific groups. The righteous, or the wicked. You either have the mark of God, or the mark of the beast. There is no in between.

James 4:4 says "You adulterous people, don’t you know that friendship with the world means enmity against God? Therefore, anyone who chooses to be a friend of the world becomes an enemy of God."

2. The rest of the dead a thousand years later, who we find out elsewhere are the unsaved. Neither would cover dear saved granny who died 30 years ago.

On the contrary. Even granny who died 30 years ago was either righteous or wicked. She either had the mark of God, or the mark of the beast.

 

[Andy centek]

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 is the event of the "Second Coming" and "Resurrection" of " The Dead In Christ", on "The Last Day".

Is there a resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" seen in 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17?

100% "YES"!

When does the resurrection of "The Dead In Christ" take place?

"On The Last Day", As Jesus Christ Clearly Taught In John 6:40, John 11:23-24.

"I Will Raise Him Up At The Last Day"

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 isn't a Pre-Trib Rapture, its "The Last Day", with no days of human existence beyond this.

Don't Be Deceived By The Ole Bait And Switch Trick.

Jesus Christ Is Lord

Truth7t7

 

[Andy centek]

TRUTH 7-7

You seem to cling to the teaching of the Baptist group; is that correct?

Any way, I will again post more about the subject of the resurrection that you seem to adhere to. First,you can not take a small part of what Jesus statements that Jesus has made and take them out of their context. What do I mean by that? I mean read the whole message surrounding the topic, not just a portion that my be satisfying to ones self.

John 6:1- After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. nd a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there He sat with His disciples. And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto Him, He said unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? And this He said to prove him: for He himself knew what he would do.
Stoping here for a moment. What is the situation here? His disciples are with Him and some of the people of Judeah are approaching to where He is at that time. This is then a setting pertaining to the Jews and not the Gentiles.
Consider closely what Jesus stated about the Gentiles:

John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

These other sheep are the gentiles which at that time have not been preached to. What did Jesus say about His coming to Judeah?

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Now if He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, what part have the Gentiles in what you are trying to state? This then raises the question; when were the Gentiles taught about Jesus Christ and who taught them?

Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 15:15-16 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Here then is how the other sheep which Jesus said He must bring into His fold were to be brought in, by the apostle Paul and his ministry. Now returning to the Jews.

John 6:7-14 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto Him, There is a lad here, which has five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Here is given enough to show that it was the Jews that Jesus was addressing and not the Gentile world. This is exactly how false doctrines get there start, taking things out of context.
John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Andy Centek

 

[Truth7t7]

TRUTH 7-7

You seem to cling to the teaching of the Baptist group; is that correct?

Any way, I will again post more about the subject of the resurrection that you seem to adhere to. First,you can not take a small part of what Jesus statements that Jesus has made and take them out of their context. What do I mean by that? I mean read the whole message surrounding the topic, not just a portion that my be satisfying to ones self.

John 6:1- After these things Jesus went over the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. nd a great multitude followed him, because they saw his miracles which he did on them that were diseased.
And Jesus went up into a mountain, and there He sat with His disciples. And the passover, a feast of the Jews, was nigh.
When Jesus then lifted up his eyes, and saw a great company come unto Him, He said unto Philip, Whence shall we buy bread, that these may eat? And this He said to prove him: for He himself knew what he would do.
Stoping here for a moment. What is the situation here? His disciples are with Him and some of the people of Judeah are approaching to where He is at that time. This is then a setting pertaining to the Jews and not the Gentiles.
Consider closely what Jesus stated about the Gentiles:

John_10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

These other sheep are the gentiles which at that time have not been preached to. What did Jesus say about His coming to Judeah?

Mat 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Now if He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, what part have the Gentiles in what you are trying to state? This then raises the question; when were the Gentiles taught about Jesus Christ and who taught them?

Rom_11:13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
Rom_11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.

Rom 15:15-16 Nevertheless, brethren, I have written the more boldly unto you in some sort, as putting you in mind, because of the grace that is given to me of God, That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.
Here then is how the other sheep which Jesus said He must bring into His fold were to be brought in, by the apostle Paul and his ministry. Now returning to the Jews.

John 6:7-14 Philip answered him, Two hundred pennyworth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one of them may take a little. One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto Him, There is a lad here, which has five barley loaves, and two small fishes: but what are they among so many? And Jesus said, Make the men sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. And Jesus took the loaves; and when he had given thanks, he distributed to the disciples, and the disciples to them that were set down; and likewise of the fishes as much as they would. When they were filled, he said unto his disciples, Gather up the fragments that remain, that nothing be lost.
Therefore they gathered them together, and filled twelve baskets with the fragments of the five barley loaves, which remained over and above unto them that had eaten. Then those men, when they had seen the miracle that Jesus did, said, This is of a truth that prophet that should come into the world.
Here is given enough to show that it was the Jews that Jesus was addressing and not the Gentile world. This is exactly how false doctrines get there start, taking things out of context.
John 6:41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

Andy Centek

No I'm Not A Baptist, Nor Do I Subscribe To The False Teachings Of A Pre-Trib Rapture, Or 1000 Year Kingdom On This Earth.

Whats Your Argument?