Babylon of Revelation 17-18 was Jerusalem/unfaithful Israel

[Douggg]

My point was that we would have no Idea what the definition of the great city was.

I understand that is the point you are making. But it is not the reason to know that the great city referred to in Revelation 11 is Jerusalem.

Leaving out "spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt", the statement where our Lord was crucified - identifies the city as Jerusalem.

Keep in mind when John was given Revelation. At that time, Jerusalem had rejected Jesus as her king.

 

[Douggg]

#


Also the colours of the cardinals and priests of Rome.

There are no priests or cardinals in the Christian Church.

Could be said of the hierarchy in the Vatican, yes the great harlot, in Revelation 17. But the language itself, also found in Revelation 18, is indicative of material wealth.

The Vatican itself is not Mystery Babylon the great.

 

[David Kent]

Not the first beast that makes the image, but the second beast the false prophet has the world make an image of first beast.

What is the image of the papacy but their Mary? This image is credited with multitudes of false miracles and wonders.

It doesn't say explicitly in Revelation that image is placed in the temple. But given that by combining what it says in Daniel 12:11-12 and Matthew 24:15 and by what historically has been shown to be the abomination of desolation in Daniel 11: by Antiohcus, that was placed in the temple - it will be a statue image placed in the temple. The image will be setup - i.e. placed there to be worshiped. And will be a statue of the beast - made of him in the standing position.

Antiochus did not place the AOD in the temple. It was "they" who were to put set up the AOD, and the they were those from the ships of Chittim, the Romans, Antiochus was not a "they. he was a "He". And Jesus said it was still future in His day. There was only one AOD as it is only the referred to as "The AOD". Luke tells us that the AOD was the Roman armies surrounding Jerusalem, If you read Dan 11 carefully yo will see that the Roman arms were to place the AOD

The end times abomination of desolation "setup" - i.e. placed in the temple
Daniel 12:11 And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Fulfilled. From the time of the first surrounding of Jeruasalem by the armies of Cestius, the AOD, till the failure of the daily sacrifice was exactly 1290 days, see the dates given in Josephus.

The abomination of desolation "standing" in a holy place
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Fulfilled. Jerusalem was the Holy Place.

Matthew and Mark had to write circumspectly as Jews, but Luke writing later as a Greek told us what the AOD was.

• Luke 20-21 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. 21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.

Luke is describing the self same event as Matt and Mark who had to say (whoso readeth, let him understand.) Luke understood. It is a pity that today, many don't understand.

 

[David Kent]

Could be said of the hierarchy in the Vatican, yes the great harlot, in Revelation 17. But the language itself, also found in Revelation 18, is indicative of material wealth.

The Vatican itself is not Mystery Babylon the great.

Yes it is. The RCC is the richest and most corrupt Organisation on earth. It is not a religion, it is a confidence trick.

 

[Postvieww]

So you believe Islam is the bride and has a marital (covenantal) relationship with God?

NO

 

[claninja]

Leaving out "spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt", the statement where our Lord was crucified - identifies the city as Jerusalem.

Come on now, it identifies "the great city" as Jerusalem.

It doesn't say explicitly in Revelation that image is placed in the temple. But given that by combining

So you are using a combination of passages that are similar, but not exact, to come up with the idea that the man of sin who sets up the AOD in the temple is the beast, even though no scripture explicitly states that. Ironic.

and yet when a combination of scripture gives you almost word for word the exact same characteristics between the the great harlot and babylon, so much so that they are both called the great city, both wear the same clothes, both brought to ruin in 1 hour, both whored the earth, and both punished for the blood of prophets and saints, then you claim they are not the same.

and when revelation 11:8 provides the definition of the great city as jerusalem, and no other definition is provided until we get revelation 17:18 which states the great harlot is the great city, you say that this great city is different than what was stated in revelation 11:8, with no shred or even ounce of evidence that the definition of the great city changed from jerusalem to something else.

If the harlot is the great city, but the great city is not jerusalem in this passage, you have to provide scriptural support that the meaning of the great city, which is Jerusalem, changed. otherwise we have no idea what the great city is in revelation 17 and can make it about anything.

 

[claninja]

NO

then why would babylon the great have anything to do with islam?

Babylon the great has a husband
Revelation 18:7 ‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow,

Babylon the great is an adulterer.
Revelation 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her


Who is this husband that babylon the great is cheating on?

 

[Postvieww]

then why would babylon the great have anything to do with islam?

Why not? Islam claims to worship the one true God, they accept all of the OT prophets they believe Jesus was a prophet but not the Son of God. Sounds like a harlot religion to me.

Babylon the great has a husband
Revelation 18:7 ‘I sit as a queen, I am no widow,

I answered your question now it is your turn. Can you prove from the book of Revelation who your interpretation of the husband? It’s your standard.

Babylon the great is an adulterer.
Revelation 18:9 And the kings of the earth, who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with her

Who are the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with Jerusalem?

Who is this husband that babylon the great is cheating on?

Show your proof from Revelation. We can’t define "great city" outside of revelation, let’s be consistent.

 

[Douggg]

So you are using a combination of passages that are similar, but not exact, to come up with the idea that the man of sin who sets up the AOD in the temple is the beast, even though no scripture explicitly states that. Ironic.

The revealed man of sin does not set up the AOD. The false prophet has the image made. So it is most likely that it is the false prophet who has the image placed in the temple.

and when revelation 11:8 provides the definition of the great city as jerusalem, and no other definition is provided until we get revelation 17:18 which states the great harlot is the great city, you say that this great city is different than what was stated in revelation 11:8, with no shred or even ounce of evidence that the definition of the great city changed from jerusalem to something else.

It is not a definition of "the great city". In revelation 11:8, it is identifying that two bodies will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

The great city in Revelation 17 is not Jerusalem, because the great harlot (the great city) sits on many waters.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Jerusalem is not made up of peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues - but the Vatican in Rome (the great city where the harlot also sits), which the RCC, is a worldwide organization.

and yet when a combination of scripture gives you almost word for word the exact same characteristics between the the great harlot and babylon,

The great harlot exhibits the traits she inherited from mystery, Babylon the great. So there is similar language.

____________________________________________________________________________
The great city in Revelation 11, where Jesus was crucified is Jerusalem. We should all agree to that.

The great harlot in Revelation 17, which also a the great city, but rules over the kings of the earth, is the Vatican/ in Rome. Her tenacles in every nation and peoples. And located in the place of seven mountains (hills).

Mystery, Babylon the great, in Revelation 18, is the invisible empire of Satan, likened as a great city by being called Babylon the great, traffics in wickedness and violence. Which the wealth of world's riches has been built on, and will come tumbling down someday.

 

[Douggg]

What is the image of the papacy but their Mary? This image is credited with multitudes of false miracles and wonders.

David, do you know why, the basic reason that these threads on this particular topic have 50, 60, maybe a 100 pages of posts of disagreement?

It is because most of the posters have one thing in common - regarding the harlot and mystery, babylon the great and the great city(s) - is because the majority of the posters try to make it all one entity. And it doesn't work, because there is major conflict between the passages when a person tries to do that.

 

[Postvieww]

That does not refer to Antichrist, but The king who emerged at the end of their kingdom, the Greek. The only king in the NT with The King after his name.

Maybe a little more explanation. Many and myself included believe the antichrist is in Daniel 11:36-45.

 

[David Kent]

Maybe a little more explanation. Many and myself included believe the antichrist is in Daniel 11:36-45.

Yes I know. I have read books that teach that it refers to a future Antichrist and others that it refers to the Papal Antichrist, but I believe both are wrong. Daniel 11 has two wilful kings, the first is Alexander, the prophecy then explains in great detail the wars and plots between the Northern Greek kingdom and the Southern Egyptian Ptolemys. And the coming of the Romans at the time of Antiochus. This such an accurate prophecy that scoffers say it was written after the events, so Daniel couldn't have written it. It is mainly the history of the Greek kings of the North and South, but after the Romans defeated the kings of Antioch, they became the King of the North.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, This is the only king in this chapter who is called The King, rather than The King of the North or the King of the South. He is called in the bible, Herod the King, Matthew 2:1 and 2:3 and Herod the King of Judea.

• 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

Tidings from the North that alarmed him were when his son plotted against him in Rome, and the east was the news from the wise men that the true King Of The Jews had been born.

• 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Herod died alone in agony of some mysterious illness,

Then in Chapter 12 v 1

• Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Here we see that Daniel's people are not only Jews, but believing Jews, and we see that these are the same who fled Jerusalem in the Roman war.

This only a brief outline, but if you really want to know more, you can find it here, http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/otherworks/mauro/seventyweeks/chapter9.htmhere

 

[claninja]

Why not? Islam claims to worship the one true God, they accept all of the OT prophets they believe Jesus was a prophet but not the Son of God. Sounds like a harlot religion to me.

Because God was never in a marital (covenantal) relationship with Islam.

Can you prove from the book of Revelation who your interpretation of the husband? It’s your standard.

It's important to understand how ancient marriages worked. There were 2 parts:
1.) the betrothal
2.) the wedding
In both parts the man and woman are considered legally married, even though the wife does not live with the husband during the betrothal. If a man and woman were betrothed but had not yet had their wedding feast, and they wanted to separate, they would still have to file for a divorce. It wasn't until after the marriage ceremony that they would live together.
Additionally, during the betrothal, the woman could not be with another man, as this would be considered adultery.

The point being that being betrothed, but not yet living together, a man and woman were considered legally married.

Now with that being said, it is easy to point out the husband in revelation:

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Revelation 21:9
hen came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.

The husband is obviously Christ, who is God himself.

Israel was the chosen bride who was first invited to the wedding feast, but they rejected it and killed the servants sent to them by the Father. So the Father destroyed them and sent out invites to the wedding feast so many others who would come. Matthew 22:1-14

Matthew 8:11
11I say to you that many (gentiles and remnant Israel) will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom (unfaithful Israel) will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Who are the kings of the earth who committed sexual immorality and lived in luxury with Jerusalem?

Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Rome....
Ezekiel16: 26-29
ou also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, multiplying your whoring, to provoke me to anger. 27Behold, therefore, I stretched out my hand against you and diminished your allotted portion and delivered you to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. 28You played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied; yes, you played the harlot with them, and still you were not satisfied. 29You multiplied your whoring also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied.

John 19:15
Shall I crucify your King?” Pilate asked. “We have no king but Caesar,” replied the chief priests.

 

[claninja]

The revealed man of sin does not set up the AOD. The false prophet has the image made. So it is most likely that it is the false prophet who has the image placed in the temple.

Ahhh, so the image placed in the temple is different than the man of sin who sits in the temple?
2 Thessalonians 2:4
the son of perdition, 4Who opposeth, and is lifted up above all that is called God, or that is worshipped, so that he sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself as if he were God.

The great city in Revelation 17 is not Jerusalem, because the great harlot (the great city) sits on many waters.

15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the harlot sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.

Jerusalem is not made up of peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues - but the Vatican in Rome (the great city where the harlot also sits), which the RCC, is a worldwide organization.

Does it say Jerusalem IS the many waters? No, it says it sits ON many waters.

To Jews, there were 2 types of people: Jews and Gentiles.

It is not a definition of "the great city"

Disagree. It gives us the location (where our lord was crucified) and what it is spiritually (egypt and sodom, which it has been compared to numerous times in the OT)

In revelation 11:8, it is identifying that two bodies will lie dead in the streets of Jerusalem.

And it also tells us what the great city is.

The great harlot in Revelation 17, which also a the great city, but rules over the kings of the earth, is the Vatican/ in Rome. Her tenacles in every nation and peoples. And located in the place of seven mountains (hills).

Mystery, Babylon the great, in Revelation 18, is the invisible empire of Satan, likened as a great city by being called Babylon the great, traffics in wickedness and violence. Which the wealth of world's riches has been built on, and will come tumbling down someday.

You have provided no scripture to prove that it is the vatican, and you have provided no scripture to prove that it is the inivisible empire of Satan.

Until then your arguments are groundless.

 

[Postvieww]

Yes I know. I have read books that teach that it refers to a future Antichrist and others that it refers to the Papal Antichrist, but I believe both are wrong. Daniel 11 has two wilful kings, the first is Alexander, the prophecy then explains in great detail the wars and plots between the Northern Greek kingdom and the Southern Egyptian Ptolemys. And the coming of the Romans at the time of Antiochus. This such an accurate prophecy that scoffers say it was written after the events, so Daniel couldn't have written it. It is mainly the history of the Greek kings of the North and South, but after the Romans defeated the kings of Antioch, they became the King of the North.
36 And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, This is the only king in this chapter who is called The King, rather than The King of the North or the King of the South. He is called in the bible, Herod the King, Matthew 2:1 and 2:3 and Herod the King of Judea.

• 44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many.

Tidings from the North that alarmed him were when his son plotted against him in Rome, and the east was the news from the wise men that the true King Of The Jews had been born.

• 45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.

Herod died alone in agony of some mysterious illness,

Then in Chapter 12 v 1

• Daniel 12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Here we see that Daniel's people are not only Jews, but believing Jews, and we see that these are the same who fled Jerusalem in the Roman war.

This only a brief outline, but if you really want to know more, you can find it here, http://www.schoettlepublishing.com/otherworks/mauro/seventyweeks/chapter9.htmhere

Daniel 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over.

Does this not cause a problem?

 

[Postvieww]

Because God was never in a marital (covenantal) relationship with Islam.



It's important to understand how ancient marriages worked. There were 2 parts:
1.) the betrothal
2.) the wedding
In both parts the man and woman are considered legally married, even though the wife does not live with the husband during the betrothal. If a man and woman were betrothed but had not yet had their wedding feast, and they wanted to separate, they would still have to file for a divorce. It wasn't until after the marriage ceremony that they would live together.
Additionally, during the betrothal, the woman could not be with another man, as this would be considered adultery.

The point being that being betrothed, but not yet living together, a man and woman were considered legally married.

Now with that being said, it is easy to point out the husband in revelation:

Revelation 19:7
Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready;
Revelation 21:9
hen came one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls full of the seven last plagues and spoke to me, saying, “Come, I will show you the Bride, the wife of the Lamb.

The husband is obviously Christ, who is God himself.

Israel was the chosen bride who was first invited to the wedding feast, but they rejected it and killed the servants sent to them by the Father. So the Father destroyed them and sent out invites to the wedding feast so many others who would come. Matthew 22:1-14

Matthew 8:11
11I say to you that many (gentiles and remnant Israel) will come from the east and the west to share the banquet with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12But the sons of the kingdom (unfaithful Israel) will be cast into the outer darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”



Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Rome....
Ezekiel16: 26-29
ou also played the harlot with the Egyptians, your lustful neighbors, multiplying your whoring, to provoke me to anger. 27Behold, therefore, I stretched out my hand against you and diminished your allotted portion and delivered you to the greed of your enemies, the daughters of the Philistines, who were ashamed of your lewd behavior. 28You played the harlot also with the Assyrians, because you were not satisfied; yes, you played the harlot with them, and still you were not satisfied. 29You multiplied your whoring also with the trading land of Chaldea, and even with this you were not satisfied.

John 19:15
Shall I crucify your King?” Pilate asked. “We have no king but Caesar,” replied the chief priests.

Are you a self described preterist?

 

[claninja]

Are you a self described preterist?

I'll answer that question only if you can answer these 3, otherwise lets stick to the topic of the thread:

1.) Is God currently king of the heavens and earth?
2.) Is Jesus God?
3.) Is Jesus currently king of the heavens and earth?

 

[Postvieww]

I'll answer that question only if you can answer these 3, otherwise lets stick to the topic of the thread:

1.) Is God currently king of the heavens and earth?
2.) Is Jesus God?
3.) Is Jesus currently king of the heavens and earth?

I don't make deals I just want to know who I am talking too. If you are you should not hide it if not you shouldn't that hide that either. You sure operate like another preterist brother I know on this forum.

 

[claninja]

I don't make deals I just want to know who I am talking too. If you are you should not hide it if not you shouldn't that hide that either. You sure operate like another preterist brother I know on this forum.

I guess I didn't think that those 3 questions were that hard. Anyways, back to the topic.

 

[Postvieww]

I guess I didn't think that those 3 questions were that hard. Anyways, back to the topic.

They are not that hard. Neither is the one I asked you.