Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

[Open Heart]

The goals are different.

A student learns what the teacher teaches.
A disciple acts like the master.

A student can outgrow and surpass a teacher.
A disciple can't. His best is to become just like the master.

I'm sorry Pat. I really enjoy chatting with you. But as you know, I just don't always agree.

 

[Open Heart]

Exactly! You first said it was "imperative" that we obey the oral Torah. Now you are saying we need to obey the oral Torah of Bet Hillel, rather than Bet Shammai, but you are also saying we are to obey Bet Shammai rather than Bet Hillel regarding divorce. I submit to you that this example of divorce proves it is NOT imperative to obey the oral Torah because the oral Torah is saying two different things!

When it comes to the occasional differences in opinion over Oral Torah, Yeshua helps us discern which view is correct. It doesn't mean he is teaching something original.

Very little of what Yeshua taught was original: that he was the Son of God, the Son of Man, that he was God. Other than that, he basically taught the same old Torah and Oral Torah of Beit Hillel.

It is thought that Yeshua met Rabbi Hillel when as a 12 year old his family visited Jerusalem. Rabbi Hillel was head of the Sanhedrin at that time.

 

[pat34lee]

Which of the 10 commandments would apply directly to homosexual orgies? If you can answer that one; this one will stump you for sure:

Where is it directly commanded not to be a drunkard, ANYWHERE?

First question -- #1, 4, 6, 9, 10

Second question --
Proverbs 20:1
1 Corinthians 5:11
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Ephesians 5:8
Galatians 5:21

 

[Open Heart]

In other words you have nothing. See: Burden of Proof

The proof that I have is that the Yeshuas described don't fit what we know about our Yeshua.

 

[Open Heart]

...

You quoted the Talmud:
* “Christians who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.” (Rosh Hashanah 17a)

This is really no worse than the Christian Church's adage:
"Outside the Church there is no salvation," which comes from the 3rd century.

 

[Open Heart]

Nonsense. Yahshua broke their man made, traditional, oral torah.

Where did he break the oral Torah according to Beit Hillel?

 

[Open Heart]

Non-sequitur

Those verses are about judgements of criminal and civil matters, arising between two parties.

You're seriously grasping at straws here.

Those verses apply to the interpretation of Torah, aka case law, which is what Oral Torah is.

 

[Open Heart]

You would do well to compare the Concordant Literal Version to the Greek. You'll find it to be more accurate than the translation that you posted.

I find the best translations of the gospels to be the NASB: New American Standard Bible (if you want a good word for word, or the NIV: New International Version (if you want it to sound like English is actually spoken).

 

[pat34lee]

I'm sorry Pat. I really enjoy chatting with you. But as you know, I just don't always agree.

No problem. This is not a crucial issue.

 

[Open Heart]

I find the best translations of the gospels to be the NASB: New American Standard Bible (if you want a good word for word, or the NIV: New International Version (if you want it to sound like English is actually spoken).

Here is the text from the NASB, which is a word for word:
"justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others." Matthew 23:23

 

[Godsfollower]

I believe we are not bound to The Law, but we are required to keep The Feasts & Festivals. The laws of sacrifices have been fulfilled by Yeshua. All of the Feasts & Festivals are in preparation for The 1,000 Year Reign of Christ.

 

[visionary]

You don't think you can come up with a definition of Judaism that will be fairly universal? Are you admitting that you have your own ideosyncratic made up Judaism that has no relationship to the real Judaism?

Is Yeshua's version of Judaism the real version?

 

[DennisTate]

Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism? Are the Mosaic Laws and the New Covenant irreconcilable with each other? Are people looking for a Jewish identity in the New Covenant with Yahshua the Messiah?


What is Messianic Judaism all about?

Bound is a rather strong word........
but I personally am not intelligent enough or spiritual enough to rule out the statements by the young Israeli near death experiencer Natan who has testified that he was shown that there are great spiritual benefits... .even for wearing tzitzit.............

So...... if we refuse to wear tzitzit.... then we could well be passing up on a potential blessing.......???

 

[gadar perets]

Are you bound by the Mosaic Laws or Rabbinic Judaism?

This is a leading question that puts a certain thought into a person's head as is evident by Godfollower's post #251 in which he uses the phrase "bound to The Law". You use the word "bound" which is not used concerning the need to obey the Mosaic Laws (YHWH's Laws). There are laws that bind us to a spouse, but there is nothing that says believers are "bound to" the Law as far as I can remember. We were bound by sin, but have been freed from that.

What word can you use in place of "bound" to clarify your meaning?

 

[DennisTate]

Is Yeshua's version of Judaism the real version?

Yes it is......
and the now seventeen year old Israeli teenager named Natan who had a near death experience back in 2015 sure seems to be much in line with the teachings of Rabbi Yeshua - Jesus on a number of important questions.............

The admonition to wear tzitzit would obviously be one of the "least commandments" but Natan.......
although only seventeen years old... is teaching Israelis that there are great benefits to wearing tzitzit so..........

Natan is in line with these teachings of Rabbi and Messiah Yeshua - Jesus :

Matthew 5:17

¶
Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

[CherubRam]

This is a leading question that puts a certain thought into a person's head as is evident by Godfollower's post #251 in which he uses the phrase "bound to The Law". You use the word "bound" which is not used concerning the need to obey the Mosaic Laws (YHWH's Laws). There are laws that bind us to a spouse, but there is nothing that says believers are "bound to" the Law as far as I can remember. We were bound by sin, but have been freed from that.

What word can you use in place of "bound" to clarify your meaning?

Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them (on/in) your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

 

[CherubRam]

Bound is a rather strong word........
but I personally am not intelligent enough or spiritual enough to rule out the statements by the young Israeli near death experiencer Natan who has testified that he was shown that there are great spiritual benefits... .even for wearing tzitzit.............

So...... if we refuse to wear tzitzit.... then we could well be passing up on a potential blessing.......???

Deuteronomy 6 4 thu 9

 

[gadar perets]

Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them (on/in) your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

There is a big difference between being "bound to the Law" and having the Law bound to you (having the commandments tied to one's forehead or hand).

 

[DennisTate]

Deuteronomy 6
4 Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." 5 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength. 6 These commandments that I give you today are to be on your hearts. 7 Impress them on your children. Talk about them when you sit at home and when you walk along the road, when you lie down and when you get up. 8 Tie them as symbols on your hands and bind them (on/in) your foreheads. 9 Write them on the doorframes of your houses and on your gates.

Basically...... I am of the opinion that........
all ten commandments..... all statutes.... and all judgements........
fit into a hierarchy of laws...........
that are super ceded by the preservation of life...... and limb for people..........

.....(the man gathering sticks on the Sabbath that Moses had put to death could be thought of as a notable exception to that general rule).... that I attempt to elaborate on here:

Sabbath observance under extreme conditions....

 

[Open Heart]

Is Yeshua's version of Judaism the real version?

In his day, absolutely. But Judaism, from Mt Sinai til now, has never been static. It has built case law, and it has adjusted to different situations, such as captivity or the temple being destroyed.