Genesis 6:1-4 and Jude 6&7 what do these passages mean? Why should we care?

seventysevens

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Trying to force the book of Enoch because you think it speaks in parables is not theologically acceptable and it is never proper exegesis.
Right there is the problem you have - you don't get it I am NOT FORCING ANYTHING
 
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Major1

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I had though based on previous conversations that you were more open minded , but you are not willing to even consider things or explore things outside what you have been taught . I am not discussing the rapture simply demonstrating that people sometimes form an opinion without ALL the facts then insist they are right and anyone else who is not in alignment with their thoughts and views are not correct

When it comes to the Bible my friend, I am a bulldog with a ham bone.

I have spent 50 years in study of the Bible and sources outside of the Bible such as the books of the Apocrypha which is why I am able to speak to you about it.

I am aware of the "facts" concerning the book of Enoch as well as the others in the Apocrypha.
That fact does not mean I am closed minded or unable to consider other things. The fact is I have already considered those things and have found them unacceptable.
 
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Major1

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Right there is the problem you have - you don't get it I am NOT FORCING ANYTHING

I do not have a problem at all. I am only verbalizing what you are trying to do. You have made comments which are giving a positive slant to the book of Enoch. IMO You are trying to make the book of Enoch acceptable to help support something you have decided is correct......
is that not true????

If not I apologize. It is just what I perceive you are doing, and that is what I call "forcing".
 
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seventysevens

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When it comes to the Bible my friend, I am a bulldog with a ham bone.

I have spent 50 years in study of the Bible and sources outside of the Bible such as the books of the Apocrypha which is why I am able to speak to you about it.

I am aware of the "facts" concerning the book of Enoch as well as the others in the Apocrypha.
That fact does not mean I am closed minded or unable to consider other things. The fact is I have already considered those things and have found them unacceptable.
Fine - you have an opinion but that does not mean you are right and the rest of the world is wrong , what I have found is simply that it is not known who wrote the book , but the same is said of books in the bible , fact is that it was thousands of years ago that no one knows 100% either way - Jude make comments in reference of the book of Enoch old Jewish fathers accepted it , other Christian churches have it in their canon - must be reason for it , so if you choose not to accept it fine
 
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Major1

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canonized Book of Tobit
6 Then Raphael called the two of them privately and said to them, “Bless God and acknowledge him in the presence of all the living for the good things he has done for you. Bless and sing praise to his name. With fitting honor declare to all people the deeds of God. Do not be slow to acknowledge him. 7 It is good to conceal the secret of a king, but to acknowledge and reveal the works of God, and with fitting honor to acknowledge him. Do good and evil will not overtake you. 8 Prayer with fasting is good, but better than both is almsgiving with righteousness. A little with righteousness is better than wealth with wrongdoing. It is better to give alms than to lay up gold. 9 For almsgiving saves from death and purges away every sin. Those who give alms will enjoy a full life, 10 but those who commit sin and do wrong are their own worst enemies.

12 So now when you and Sarah prayed, it was I who brought and read the record of your prayer before the glory of the Lord, and likewise whenever you would bury the dead. 13 And that time when you did not hesitate to get up and leave your dinner to go and bury the dead, 14 I was sent to you to test you. And at the same time God sent me to heal you and Sarah your daughter-in-law. 15 I am Raphael, one of the seven angels who stand ready and enter before the glory of the Lord.”

And YOUR POINT IS?

The book of Tobit is just as Occultic as is Enoch. That is exactly like the pot calling the kettle black and it does not in any way support your thesis.

Again.........post any Scripture from the Bible from the KJV, ESV,ASV, NIV, Holman that validate the existence of an angel named RAPHAEL.

 
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seventysevens

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And YOUR POINT IS?

The book of Tobit is just as Occultic as is Enoch. That is exactly like the pot calling the kettle black and it does not in any way support your thesis.

Again.........post any Scripture from the Bible from the KJV, ESV,ASV, NIV, Holman that validate the existence of an angel named RAPHAEL.
Prove it - guess you call anything you don't accept occultic
you asked for any canon and I gave you one
 
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Major1

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Fine - you have an opinion but that does not mean you are right and the rest of the world is wrong , what I have found is simply that it is not known who wrote the book , but the same is said of books in the bible , fact is that it was thousands of years ago that no one knows 100% either way - Jude make comments in reference of the book of Enoch old Jewish fathers accepted it , other Christian churches have it in their canon - must be reason for it , so if you choose not to accept it fine

Opinion? Actually what I have stated is Bible truth my friend. An opinion can be right or it can be wrong. However the Bible is never wrong and it is the perfect Word of God.

There is NO doubt that Enoch made these statements as Jude 1:14 confirms; but that doesn't necessarily mean that he authored the entire Book of Enoch or any of it for that matter.

It's a question of who copied who? And remember, the Author of the Bible is GOD; not men... "For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost" (2nd Peter 1:21).

To elevate the Book of Enoch to the level of God's Word is dangerous, unless it is truly God's Word! If Enoch did write the Book of Enoch, it raises the natural question of whether or not the work was inspired by God? The King James translators,48 scholarly men skilled in the Hebrew and Greek languages, DIDN'T!

Many godly men today write good books; but they are still flawed human beings, prone to sin, who aren't always doctrinally correct in every area. It would be a great evil to recognize their writings as EQUAL with God's Word (the Bible).
 
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Major1

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Prove it - guess you call anything you don't accept occultic
you asked for any canon and I gave you one

Just read my brother. I do not have to prove it, YOU just read it.

The Book of Enoch is a square peg which just doesn't fit anywhere. The wording is vague—a popular method of deception which Satan uses! Listen to the average televangelist these days and you'll get a watered-down sermonette; but hear no clear Gospel presentation.

The occult is all about confusing people, and deception which is why so many otherwise decent men join such a Satanic organization as Freemasonry. Benny Hinn's website appears to present the basic Gospel; but he is a known Catholic, who believes good works are necessary for salvation.
 
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seventysevens

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Opinion? Actually what I have stated is Bible truth my friend. An opinion can be right or it can be wrong. However the Bible is never wrong and it is the perfect Word of God.

There is NO doubt that Enoch made these statements as Jude 1:14 confirms; but that doesn't necessarily mean that he authored the entire Book of Enoch or any of it for that matter.

.
But you haven't proved anything against it which makes it opinion
in ten seconds a quick google and found this
Bible, King James Version
 
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seventysevens

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Just read my brother. I do not have to prove it, YOU just read it.

The Book of Enoch is a square peg which just doesn't fit anywhere. The wording is vague—a popular method of deception which Satan uses! Listen to the average televangelist these days and you'll get a watered-down sermonette; but hear no clear Gospel presentation.

The occult is all about confusing people, and deception which is why so many otherwise decent men join such a Satanic organization as Freemasonry. Benny Hinn's website appears to present the basic Gospel; but he is a known Catholic, who believes good works are necessary for salvation.
There are real things happening in our world that the bible cannot explain , and to simply dismiss or not deal with it is fine fro personal view m but to tell everyone else to carry the same view requires evidence the view is more than mere opinion of how a person interpreted what they see or read

I am willing to review and look into things that are real and evaluate new information as it comes - there once was a day where everyone believed strongly that if you sailed your boat out too far you would fall off the edge of th earth and anyone who was not following that thinking was considered foolish - but look who proved they were wrong
 
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Major1

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But you haven't proved anything against it which makes it opinion
in ten seconds a quick google and found this
Bible, King James Version

Really? Come on now my friend. Lets be honest here OK!

Where is Raphael in the Bible?
Where is Phanuel.’ in the Bible.

Both are listed in Enoch but neither is found in the Bible.

Enoch says that ...........
"seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel Raphael or one named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

How much more proof do you need?????
 
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Major1

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There are real things happening in our world that the bible cannot explain , and to simply dismiss or not deal with it is fine fro personal view m but to tell everyone else to carry the same view requires evidence the view is more than mere opinion of how a person interpreted what they see or read

Do you know what is happening in our world????

SIN!

SIN and the rejection of the Word of God is why the world is in the mess that it is in.
 
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seventysevens

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Do you know what is happening in our world????

SIN!

SIN and the rejection of the Word of God is why the world is in the mess that it is in.
a whole lot more than that , things happen that are inexplainable that do not involve sinful people
 
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Major1

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a whole lot more than that , things happen that are inexplainable that do not involve sinful people

Please name them.

But for me I am done for tonight. My kids are here and they want to fire off fireworks in the back yard.

Happy New Year.
 
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seventysevens

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Really? Come on now my friend. Lets be honest here OK!

Where is Raphael in the Bible?
Where is Phanuel.’ in the Bible.

Both are listed in Enoch but neither is found in the Bible.

Enoch says that ...........
"seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel Raphael or one named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

How much more proof do you need?????
How is it that you don't understand that for thousands of years people lived on earth without a bible and the story in Genesis was handed down orally , it is possible there is more to the story , but the bible is about how to serve God -not about everything that was on earth or happening on it

Enjoy your evening :)
 
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seventysevens

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Where is Raphael in the Bible?
Where is Phanuel.’ in the Bible.
Both are listed in Enoch but neither is found in the Bible.

Something to think about , it is said there are millions of angels that God made , do you believe that ? Why only a few names of angels found in all the canon bible ? It maybe that it is not needed to include them for the intended purpose those who created the canon had in mind , and maybe God did not see reason to tell man all about them

Happy New Year
 
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Postvieww

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Really? Come on now my friend. Lets be honest here OK!

Where is Raphael in the Bible?
Where is Phanuel.’ in the Bible.

Both are listed in Enoch but neither is found in the Bible.

Enoch says that ...........
"seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel Raphael or one named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

How much more proof do you need?????

John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

We are not told everything in scripture. That is just a fact.
 
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Major1

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John 21:25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

We are not told everything in scripture. That is just a fact.

And where in John 21:25 do we find the words or even the idea of TWO angels named RAPHAEL and Phanuel.

Why not use your ability to think and reason to grasp the fact that neither one is found in the entire Bible.

Your response of John 21:25 is not acceptable and what is the real bottom line.....YOU knew that when you contrived it!

Every serious Bible believing person knows that John wrote "And there are also many other things which Jesus DID........." and that he was not exaggerating when he said JESUS DID..

"Jesus did", in not way implies that there are TWO angles named Raphael and Phanuel and actually I am surprised that you of all people would try and FORCE such a meaning that is not possible.
 
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SeventyOne

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Really? Come on now my friend. Lets be honest here OK!

Where is Raphael in the Bible?
Where is Phanuel.’ in the Bible.

Both are listed in Enoch but neither is found in the Bible.

Enoch says that ...........
"seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’ And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel Raphael or one named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. What blasphemy! That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

How much more proof do you need?????

Something to consider...

In Matthew 22, the Sadducees questioned Jesus about a woman who had husbands of seven brothers who all died, and they wanted to know whose wife she would be in the resurrection. Jesus said to them they were wrong because they neither knew the scriptures nor the power of God.

The reason He gave was that in the resurrection they neither marry nor are they given in marriage, but are as the angels in that regard. Please show me in scriptures where that is stated...

The answer is actually found in chapter 15 of the book of Enoch where the Lord is addressing the angels who took for themselves human wives and created the nephilim through them. And they were scolded for not knowing the 'scriptures'.

Wherefore have you forsaken the lofty and holy heaven, which endures for ever, and have lain with women; have defile yourselves with the daughters of men; have taken to yourselves wives; have acted like the sons of the earth, and have begotten an impious offspring?

You being spiritual, holy, and possessing a life which is eternal, have polluted yourselves with women; have begotten in carnal blood; have lusted in the blood of men; and have done as those who are flesh and blood do.

These however die and perish.

Therefore have I given to them wives, that they might cohabit with them; that sons might be born of them; and that this might be transacted upon earth.

But you from the beginning were made spiritual, possessing a life which is eternal, and not subject to death for ever.

Therefore I made not wives for you, because, being spiritual, your dwelling is in heaven.
 
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Major1

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Something to think about , it is said there are millions of angels that God made , do you believe that ? Why only a few names of angels found in all the canon bible ? It maybe that it is not needed to include them for the intended purpose those who created the canon had in mind , and maybe God did not see reason to tell man all about them

Happy New Year

Brother....come on now! That is nothing to think about at all.

The book of Enoch says in 40:9..........
‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches.

IF those TWO who only the Book of Enoch sates were in fact real angels, doesn't the Holy Spirit tell you that they would be named in the Word of God IF THEY WERE SET OVER THE REPENTANCE OF MEN?????

Brother.....there is nothing wrong with admitting that you are wrong in your thinking here on this subject. When shown the Word of God and what it says and teaches, there is no shame in just saying.... "I was wrong on this" and move on to something else.

Do not let pride effect your understanding.
 
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