Universal Salvation - Did you know that this is at the core of the Gospel?

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yeshuaslavejeff

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For how long does it say they wont be in Heaven?
Clearly they are NEVER in heaven. How long ? Pick any time you like ...... they never get to spend one nano-second in heaven , nor any amount of time, nor of eternity, nor outside of eternity, ever..
 
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Hewillcome2040

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Eternal life is WITHOUT END and so is eternal punishment. There is no difference except to those who wish to tamper with the Word of God

Let's see who is tampering. You believe aionios means either one of the below (if not add #3 to the list and define yourself). Then apply those to the verse below.

1.) without end or beginning
2.) without end.

So now read the verse again and tell me which one of the ones above that you apply to the words in the verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
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OzSpen

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Jesus was referring to the situation at His time in the first century, not final destiny.

Clement,

That's Clement's view! You have not demonstrated this is so by exegesis and exposition. Your assertion is your opinion - nothing more, nothing less.

I'll stick with the inspired Word of God through the apostle Paul, rather than your ignorance of Jesus' words

I'll stick with ALL SCRIPTURE being God-breathed, inspired of God (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV).

Putting me down is not a way to progress profitable conversation.


Greek interlinear Bibles are not Greek lexicons and Greek word studies. They are one-word attempts to find a meaning for one Greek word. How do I know? I have taught NT Greek but am now retired.

"Pay attention to the Greek verb tenses.
“Enter (eiselthate | εἰσέλθατε | aor act imperative 2 pl) through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and easy the way that leads to destruction, and many are those who enter (eiserchomenoi | εἰσερχόμενοι | pres mid ptcp nom pl masc) through it. Matt 7:13"

Why don't you tell us the Interlinear source of your quote? I presumed it was from William Mounce but when you quote someone and don't give credit, it is plagiarism. I urge you not to do that.

Do you know the meaning of Greek verb tenses??

Oz
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Let's see who is tampering. You believe aionios means either one of the below (if not add #3 to the list and define yourself). Then apply those to the verse below.

1.) without end or beginning
2.) without end.

So now read the verse again and tell me which one of the ones above that you apply to the words in the verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

the Greek authority Dr Joseph Thayer, in his Greek-English lexicon, which has been used by 1000's over the years a the standard Greek lexicon, says of "αἰώνιος" when used in Matthew 25:41, 46, etc, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". W Arndt and F Gingrich, another New Testament Greek lexicon standard word, defines "αἰώνιος", as "without end", in Matthew 25:41, 46. and The two master Greek scholars of classical Greek, H Liddell and R Scott, whose Greek lexicon is world renowned on the Greek language, have this to say for the use of "αἰώνιος" when used in Matthew 25:46, "perpetual, eternal". the Oxford English dictionary, anther standard work for the English language, defines "perpetual", as "Never ending or changing". Show Greek authorities for Matthew 25:46, who say that "αἰώνιος" is used in the sense "will end"? Note, Dr Thayer was a Unitarian scholar, who himself believed in "universal salvation", but in his work was honest enough to give what the Greek language actually says, rather than his personal bias! Much can be learned from this!
 
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redleghunter

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I suggest I might be wasting my time. if you do not believe that Study, science and reason, support, not hinder, Faith.
For instance do you believe in a young earth? or disbelieve evolution? because of uncritical belief in the bible. If that is so, we have more than Universal Salvation separating us from reality.
The question should be does one believe God is creator of all that is seen and unseen? Did He make mankind in His image and likeness.

If no, then evolution is their materialistic religion with no God. And man is an equal to a mouse.
 
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Hewillcome2040

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the Greek authority Dr Joseph Thayer, in his Greek-English lexicon, which has been used by 1000's over the years a the standard Greek lexicon, says of "αἰώνιος" when used in Matthew 25:41, 46, etc, "without end, never to cease, everlasting". W Arndt and F Gingrich, another New Testament Greek lexicon standard word, defines "αἰώνιος", as "without end", in Matthew 25:41, 46. and The two master Greek scholars of classical Greek, H Liddell and R Scott, whose Greek lexicon is world renowned on the Greek language, have this to say for the use of "αἰώνιος" when used in Matthew 25:46, "perpetual, eternal". the Oxford English dictionary, anther standard work for the English language, defines "perpetual", as "Never ending or changing". Show Greek authorities for Matthew 25:46, who say that "αἰώνιος" is used in the sense "with end"? Note, Dr Thayer was a Unitarian scholar, who himself believed in "universal salvation", but in his work was honest enough to give what the Greek language actually says, rather than his personal bias! Much can be learned from this!

Ok, well then you should have plenty of data to answer the following:

Then apply those to the verse below.

1.) without end or beginning
2.) without end.

So now read the verse again and tell me which one of the ones above that you apply to the words in the verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Ok, well then you should have plenty of data to answer the following:

Then apply those to the verse below.

1.) without end or beginning
2.) without end.

So now read the verse again and tell me which one of the ones above that you apply to the words in the verse:

Mat 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

the Greek here says, as I have shown, if you are really interested, "WITHOUT END", its very clear!
 
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redleghunter

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Besides learning about the different theories of the "why" of His incarnation.......one would also benefit to do a bit of study of the Church history (mainly the first and great schism between the Eastern Orthodox church and the Roman Catholic church around 1054).
Let us know as the great schism had nothing to do with the Incarnation.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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For those who believe in the rank heresy of "universal salvation", listen, if you are interested, in what the Holy Bible, the Word of Almighty God, says:

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:27)

The phrase "there shall in no wise", uses the double-negative, "οὐ μὴ", which in our English means, "under no circumstances"! NO person whose name is not in the Book of Life, or has the mark of the beast will EVER, NO NEVER (so the force of the Greek text) enter into heaven! So, exactly WHEN do these wicked, unrepentant sinners get into heaven, so that "all will be saved"?
 
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Hewillcome2040

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the Greek here says, as I have shown, if you are really interested, "WITHOUT END", its very clear!

So the meaning of aionios is 'without end and has a beginning'. Do you really believe the Eternal Life had a beginning?
 
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Hewillcome2040

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For those who believe in the rank heresy of "universal salvation", listen, if you are interested, in what the Holy Bible, the Word of Almighty God, says:

"And there shall in no wise enter into it any thing that defileth, neither whatsoever worketh abomination, or maketh a lie: but they which are written in the Lamb's book of life." (Revelation 21:27)...

UNTIL, they no longer defileth, neither work abomination or make lies. You see how easy that is?
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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So the meaning of aionios is 'without end and has a beginning'. Do you really believe the Eternal Life had a beginning?

now you reason as a fool does! It is obvious that you don't really know anything about the Greek language, or, if you did, you are trying to play smart! The SAME Greek word can have different USES depending on the CONTEXT. In the cases that I have shown, the Greek authorities, which you don't seem to take any notice of (why, because you know better?), the word "αἰώνιος", means "without end". Like the Greek "θεός", which is used for "the True God of the Bible", and "the devil", and "humans who represent God". Are we to conclude, that in ALL uses, it means "the devil", or "the God of the Bible", or "humans"? NO, USAGE and CONTEXT are important!. I really wish people should not get into deep discussions when it is clear that they do NOT really understand what they are on about!
 
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Hewillcome2040

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now you reason as a fool does! It is obvious that you don't really know anything about the Greek language, or, if you did, you are trying to play smart! The SAME Greek word can have different USES depending on the CONTEXT. In the cases that I have shown, the Greek authorities, which you don't seem to take any notice of (why, because you know better?), the word "αἰώνιος", means "without end". Like the Greek "θεός", which is used for "the True God of the Bible", and "the devil", and "humans who represent God". Are we to conclude, that in ALL uses, it means "the devil", or "the God of the Bible", or "humans"? NO, USAGE and CONTEXT are important!. I really wish people should not get into deep discussions when it is clear that they do NOT really understand what they are on about!

You proved me right that you would have to use the word to fit your needs and change the meaning of it. I don't have to.
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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UNTIL, they no longer defileth, neither work abomination or make lies. You see how easy that is?

show me where do you find UNTIL? "καὶ οὐ μὴ εἰσέλθῃ εἰς αὐτὴν πᾶν κοινὸν καὶ ὁ ποιῶν βδέλυγμα, καὶ ψεῦδος· εἰ μὴ οἱ γεγραμμένοι ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου"
 
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jerry kelso

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When you take it literally then you remind me of someone that would take this literally:

Mat 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?

Did you actually think Jesus was talking to literal snakes? Or rather do you think He was talking figuratively? (Parabolically).

You see Jesus is the one that gave the parabe of Lazarus and the rich man. But you think it is not a parable. Look here:

Mat_13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

So when Jesus spoke to the multitudes, he spoke in parables. So was the account of the rich man and lazarus spoken to the multitude - YES. How do we know. Because He spoke a parable earlier to the same group in Luke 16:1 with the The Parable of the Dishonest Manager. So that proves this was the multitude that He was speaking to.


he will come 2040,

1. Proper hermeneutics shows the vipers as the Pharisees and Sadduccees not literal snakes according to the context.
I would know that just from my experience as a songwriter.

2. Matthew 13, Jesus is asked by
his disciples why he spoke to them in parables.
His reply is in the context of the mysteries of the kingdom.
Lazarus was not a parable about the mysteries of the Kingdom which was the KoH reign on earth.

3. You need to learn how to exegetes scripture properly and how to understand the immediate context before you think you know what is is on the total subject.
I am sorry, but you are taking a scripture and wrenching it out of context. So the fact is you are wrong. Jerry kelso
 
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TheBibleIsTruth

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Why you say it is a lie. You just said you had to change the meaning depending on "context".

because you still refuse, even after I have shown from leading Greek scholars, the meaning of "αἰώνιος", when used in places like Matthew 25:41, 46, etc! It is not just what I personally believe, but what the Greek says! BTW, do you know any NT Greek?
 
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Hewillcome2040

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he will come 2040,

1. Proper hermeneutics shows the vipers as the Pharisees and Sadduccees not literal snakes according to the context.
I would know that just from my experience as a songwriter.

2. Matthew 13, Jesus is asked by
his disciples why he spoke to them in parables.
His reply is in the context of the mysteries of the kingdom.
Lazarus was not a parable about the mysteries of the Kingdom which was the KoH reign on earth.

3. You need to learn how to exegetes scripture properly and how to understand the immediate context before you think you know what is is on the total subject.
I am sorry, but you are taking a scripture and wrenching it out of context. So the fact is you are wrong. Jerry kelso
 
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