Is it bad for a child to believe in Santa Claus?

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LoricaLady

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So you don't believe in telling our children about the lives and stories of God's people? We shouldn't tell them about Abraham, or of Moses and Aaron, or of Elijah, Jeremiah, Ezra, Esther, John the Baptist, of Peter, James, John, Paul?

Or is it okay to tell our children about them because they're mentioned in the Bible, but we don't teach our children about the lives of God's people who lived after c. 100 AD? Of Ignatius, Polycarp, Justin, Hippolytus, Irenaeus, Felicity, Perpetua, Cyprian, Marcellus, Alexander, Athanasius, Ambrose, Nicolas, Basil, Patrick, or Augustine? Gregory, Bernard, Maximos, Isaac, Francis, or Claire? What about the Twenty-Six of Nagasaki? How about Dietrich Bonhoeffer? Martin Luther King, Jr?

Why would we deprive our children of the witness and testimony of the holy saints?

-CryptoLutheran
How in Heaven's name did you ever come to any conclusion where I would not want children to be taught about the heros and heroines of the Bible? Why are you putting real and holy people into the same category as the fake, fat, "god" like Santa Claus? Notice Santa is NOT in the Bible.

As for people like Hippolytus and Augustine, how many children care about them? Probably about zero. Study of any which figures is virtually always done at the adult level. Again, though, those historical personages were real. If the children were told about them they would not be hearing lies. Santa is a lie. Again, how can you possibly conflate him with heroes of the Bible, or any historical figures? You do know, don't you, that Santa is NOT real?
 
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Devin P

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No, there was an actual Nicolas of Myra. It's entirely possible that some of the stories surrounding him are apocryphal or exaggerated, but that there was a man named Nicolas who was bishop of Myra isn't in doubt.

Unless you have some something to offer to challenge that position.

-CryptoLutheran
Yeah, the fact that I've looked into the records of catholic saints, and no nicholas was found. Was nicholas a real person? Possibly, but he wasn't a catholic saint. The term saint as been posted before was probably attributed due to his generosity, but it had nothing to do with his being a catholic saint.

Regardless, the whole holiday of christmas comes from the feast of saturnalia and the sun god worship that came with it. The phrygian hat santa wears is exactly like the one molech wore, the 12 days of christmas is a reflection of the 12 days of saturnalia, the yule log, is a reflection of the literal yule log that sun worshippers would burn, the evergreen tree is the tree they'd use, because of it's staying green during the hardships of winter - except they'd either use trimmings from the tree, or would bring bushes into their homes, the tree itself was started much later after saturnalia had already been switched into christmas for over a 1000 years, but still, it's the same day, the same tree, so. The wreath, the mistletoe, the eight reindeer, christmas caroling, it all goes back to the feast of saturnalia and it's merge to christianity by catholicism back within the first 500 years after Jesus' ascension.
 
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LoricaLady

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Yeah, the fact that I've looked into the records of catholic saints, and no nicholas was found. Was nicholas a real person? Possibly, but he wasn't a catholic saint. The term saint as been posted before was probably attributed due to his generosity, but it had nothing to do with his being a catholic saint.

Regardless, the whole holiday of christmas comes from the feast of saturnalia and the sun god worship that came with it. The phrygian hat santa wears is exactly like the one molech wore, the 12 days of christmas is a reflection of the 12 days of saturnalia, the yule log, is a reflection of the literal yule log that sun worshippers would burn, the evergreen tree is the tree they'd use, because of it's staying green during the hardships of winter - except they'd either use trimmings from the tree, or would bring bushes into their homes, the tree itself was started much later after saturnalia had already been switched into christmas for over a 1000 years, but still, it's the same day, the same tree, so. The wreath, the mistletoe, the eight reindeer, christmas caroling, it all goes back to the feast of saturnalia and it's merge to christianity by catholicism back within the first 500 years after Jesus' ascension.
Yes, all true. As long as you brought up the subject, of course nothing in the Bible says the Savior was born in winter much less December 25. It seems highly unlikely that Caesar would have asked people to travel for his census in the dead of winter. Also, in the dead of winter, sheep were not kept out in the fields, but in shelters. The phrase "keeping watch over their flocks" appears to reference the time in spring when the shepherds were watching for the birth of new lambs. Since Yahushuah, aka Jesus, is the Lamb of the world, some think He was actually born in the spring.
 
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LinkH

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My 7 year old believes in Santa Claus and I was wondering is bad for kids to believe in Santa Claus. I always remind her that the gifts are blessings from God. I thought about telling her the truth but I don't want to break her heart.

There was a little girl whose parents, who were Christians, told her about Santa Claus giving all the children in the world presents. They also told her about Jesus. One day, they told her that Santa was just make-believe. Tearfully, she asked, "Is Jesus real?"

My sister took the Santa thing rather hard, so when my little brother and I were born, my parents told us that Santa was make-believe. My dad dressed up like Santa one year, but we knew he was just playing. To us, it was the same as if he'd dressed up like Superman. It was just having fun.

But then I'd go to school and tell the other kids Santa was just pretend, and they'd argue with me, and then my parents told me not to do that.

The whole practice is bad for poor kids, who go to school and find out their rich kid friends got new i-phones and pre-paid credit cards with $1000 limit, while they just got a bunch of toys from the Dollar Tree. I was pretty excited about my toy spaceship and Super Duper Double Looper one year, but some kids at school got a lot more toys than I did. It's a good thing I knew that meant their parents just spent more on toys than mine did, because

We go light on gifts for Christmas. Part of it was because we didn't have cash when I was in grad school. Part of it is living in places at times where Christmas is not a big commercial event. We don't want our kids to be grdedy for toys and material possessions, and you can spread out giving them things throughout the yer.

I think it's wrong for parents to lie to their children and tell them that an omniscient magic fat man knows all about their behavior and will withold gifts from them if they are bad. Parents attribute god-like abilities to Santa that have nothing to do with what Nicholas of Mira was about. With the same mouth, parents will assure children that the magic fat man who sees them all the time won't bring them any presents except a lump of coal if they are bad, then teach their children that Jesus walked on water and rose again from the dead. Something is not right about that.

The weird thing is that Protestants tend to be against praying to saints, but some of them don't have a problem with their children writing prayers to St. Nicholas for toys and other gifts.

Can you imagine Jesus gathering children to Himself and teaching them that there is a magic fat man who gives all the children of the world gifts in one night?

Doesn't Revelation say something about all liars going to the lake of fire? And what if lying to your children tempts them to unbelief when it comes to the issue of Christ? What did Jesus say about causing the little ones to stumble?
 
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LoricaLady

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Because the question wasn't about that.
Indeed the question was not about that, although the overall topic was about Christmas, reputedly the birth of the Savior. There isn't any Santa. He isn't going to live forever as the letter says. He has never lived at all. There is no reason whatsoever to teach children to believe in a lie like that.
 
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Devin P

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Yes, all true. As long as you brought up the subject, of course nothing in the Bible says the Savior was born in winter much less December 25. It seems highly unlikely that Caesar would have asked people to travel for his census in the dead of winter. Also, in the dead of winter, sheep were not kept out in the fields, but in shelters. The phrase "keeping watch over their flocks" appears to reference the time in spring when the shepherds were watching for the birth of new lambs. Since Yahushuah, aka Jesus, is the Lamb of the world, some think He was actually born in the spring.
I think He was probably born around August or September, since we know the time John the Baptist was born and Yeshua was 6 months younger than him, which would've placed his birth around the months I said earlier.
 
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Dan Brooks

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So you believe that there is no difference is the myth of santa Claus and the story of Jesus, the living God? You can't prove either is real, so if one is found to be make, the other could be as well?
Of course there's a difference. That's the point. Jesus is real. Santa Claus is fake. So if parents tell their child for years that Santa Claus is real, and also that Jesus is real, and the child learns that Santa Claus isn't real, she might think that Jesus isn't real either. Now of course Jesus is able to prove Himself to anyone, but it's still irresponsible on the part of the parent to mix the real and the fake, especially to a child, who is much more receptive, and believes things more easily.
Jesus said that we are to come to Him as little children. Why is that? What did He mean? He meant with simple faith. Children have that simple faith, while as adults, we come up with so many questions that "need" answered, that we have a hard time believing anything without it being proven.
So if you tell a child both a lie and the truth, and the child accepts both as the truth, then as the child gets older and learns that the lie was a lie, he or she might also believe that the truth was a lie as well.
And now that they're older and think more critically, and have more doubts, and need more things proven to them, you have a problem re-convincing them about God and Jesus.
It might not seem like a big deal, but it really is.
 
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LoricaLady

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I think He was probably born around August or September, since we know the time John the Baptist was born and Yeshua was 6 months younger than him, which would've placed his birth around the months I said earlier.
Could be.
 
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ViaCrucis

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How in Heaven's name did you ever come to any conclusion where I would not want children to be taught about the heros and heroines of the Bible? Why are you putting real and holy people into the same category as the fake, fat, "god" like Santa Claus? Notice Santa is NOT in the Bible.

I am putting the saints mentioned in the Bible with other historical saints, like St. Nicolas of Myra. Your post seemed to indicate that telling our children about St. Nicolas is meaningless--my point is that telling our children about the saints is not meaningless. Obviously you think talking about the stories of God's people mentioned in the Bible is important--which emphasizes my point. Telling our children about the lives and testimony of God's people in history is important, regardless of whether their names are mentioned in Scripture. Because the story of God's people is not limited to the Canon of Holy Scripture, the story of God's people happens in real history, and we continue to be part of that story. Telling our children about those who came before us gives foundation to our collective story as God's people in history.

As for people like Hippolytus and Augustine, how many children care about them? Probably about zero.

Then it seems to me that this demonstrates a failure on our part for not properly teaching our children, whether as parents or as part of the larger community of faith.

Study of any which figures is virtually always done at the adult level. Again, though, those historical personages were real. If the children were told about them they would not be hearing lies. Santa is a lie. Again, how can you possibly conflate him with heroes of the Bible, or any historical figures? You do know, don't you, that Santa is NOT real?

I wasn't comparing them to the fictional Santa Claus, but mentioned them alongside the historical and very real St. Nicolas of Myra, who is the basis of the modern Santa Claus character.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yeah, the fact that I've looked into the records of catholic saints, and no nicholas was found. Was nicholas a real person? Possibly, but he wasn't a catholic saint. The term saint as been posted before was probably attributed due to his generosity, but it had nothing to do with his being a catholic saint.

St. Nicolas of Myra is a recognized saint in all the historic churches. The "saints" are not super humans who walked around with halos about their heads, they were ordinary men and women which the Church remembers for their lives of faith and witness to Jesus Christ. The historical St. Nicolas of Myra is a saint by this definition, and is remembered as such by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, and Oriental Orthodox Churches along with the rest of the historically recognized saints. By definition that makes him a saint; as sainthood is nothing other than an honorific recognized by the Church as a whole.

If there was a real Nicolas of Myra, and he is recognized and remembered as a saint in the Christian Church, then that makes him a saint. What, exactly, do you think makes someone a "catholic saint"?

Regardless, the whole holiday of christmas comes from the feast of saturnalia

False. Saturnalia lasted from December 17th to December 23rd.

and the sun god worship that came with it.

Saturnalia had nothing to do with sun god worship. Saturnalia was an observance that celebrated Saturn, cognate with the Greek titan Kronos. Neither Saturn nor Kronos are sun gods.

The phrygian hat santa wears is exactly like the one molech wore,

A common ancient headdress which was the basis for many later headdresses, that some ancient gods were depicted wearing it is irrelevant. Zeus is depicted as wearing sandals, that doesn't make sandals pagan and evil.

the 12 days of christmas is a reflection of the 12 days of saturnalia,

Saturnalia lasted seven days, inclusive, from the 17th to the 23rd of December. The 12 days of Christmas refers to the Season of Christmas which lasts from Christmas Day until the day before Epiphany. The Christian Calendar is divided into seasons, Christmastide is one of those seasons.

the yule log, is a reflection of the literal yule log that sun worshippers would burn,

No. Yule was a Germanic tradition that honored Odin and the hunt during the winter season. Odin isn't a sun god.

the evergreen tree is the tree they'd use, because of it's staying green during the hardships of winter - except they'd either use trimmings from the tree, or would bring bushes into their homes, the tree itself was started much later after saturnalia had already been switched into christmas for over a 1000 years, but still, it's the same day, the same tree, so.

The earliest known recognizable Christmas trees date back to the early Lutherans of the 16th century. The practice of bringing in a tree into one's home doesn't date further back than this, prior to this decorated trees were found in parts of Germany around Christmas time since the Renaissance.

The wreath, the mistletoe, the eight reindeer, christmas caroling, it all goes back to the feast of saturnalia

Wreaths, yes. Reindeer didn't exist in the region of the Roman Empire, but live in the frozen north of Scandinavia. There are eight reindeer because that's the number which Clark Moore used in his famous poem T'was the Night Before Christmas. The earliest depiction of Santa with a reindeer-drawn sleigh comes from the early 19th century. The reindeer motif stems from the fact that in many parts of Europe Santa lives in Lapland, the north pole designation is a North American twist. Caroling--the act of singing as a group--is a Protestant thing, based on the Lutheran position that encouraged congregational singing; in the middle ages the singing of hymns was generally restricted to choirs, Martin Luther believed in a more active congregational participation in the Mass and encouraged and emphasized congregational singing.

and it's merge to christianity by catholicism back within the first 500 years after Jesus' ascension.

Well, congratulations on getting everything wrong.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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ViaCrucis

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Yes, all true. As long as you brought up the subject, of course nothing in the Bible says the Savior was born in winter much less December 25. It seems highly unlikely that Caesar would have asked people to travel for his census in the dead of winter. Also, in the dead of winter, sheep were not kept out in the fields, but in shelters. The phrase "keeping watch over their flocks" appears to reference the time in spring when the shepherds were watching for the birth of new lambs. Since Yahushuah, aka Jesus, is the Lamb of the world, some think He was actually born in the spring.

Up until modern times shepherds have continued to pasture their flocks in the fields around Bethlehem during the winter months. The idea that it would be too cold to do so seems to be based not on any actual substantial evidence, but speculation. The fact that shepherds have continued to shepherd their flocks in winter in the fields surrounding Bethlehem makes that speculation untenable.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Indeed the question was not about that, although the overall topic was about Christmas, reputedly the birth of the Savior. There isn't any Santa. He isn't going to live forever as the letter says. He has never lived at all. There is no reason whatsoever to teach children to believe in a lie like that.
The question was about, specifically, SANTA. Not Jesus. My suggestion is that everyone stay on topic.
 
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SolomonVII

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If people equate Santa Claus with Satan, or the myth of Rudolph and the reindeer with an insidious lie that irreparably harms their children, then by all means this ought not be a part of their lives. This goes right along the lines of plucking out your right eye if it offends thee. By all means, remove all obstacles that may get in the way of your faith.
From my own experience, Christmas was a fun thing when I was a child, and it was fun for all of the kids in the family that came after me. We all figured it out soon enough what was real and what was pretend, with or without our parents pointing out the obvious.

For sure there have been plenty of people over the years who have lost the Christian faith that I have become acquainted with, but not one of them came to that conclusion from surmising that since Santa Claus was not real, what else were their parents stringing them on about? People are just a little more sophisticated than that, in general, but if you don't give your kids more credit than what might normally be expected, then by all means, it is better to be thrown in the sea with a millstone around your neck than to turn a child against Jesus. Don't go there if you think you kids will be turned off of Jesus by Santa.

By the way, a lot of the testimonies of people who have turned off of Christianity that I have heard, have centred on the stern joylessness of their parents version of faith, and none have been focused on the fact that their parents gave them parents from Santa or chocolates from the Easter bunny. I have never once heard anyone describe their parents as being abusive for giving them parents on Christmas, or chocolate at Easter, or money under their pillow from a tooth, and pretending that they were getting them magically from somebody else.

When it comes to Satan and demonic evil, I guess my own perspective is that we live in a world of hydrogen bombs and genocides and land mines and sexual abuse of children, and all kinds of backstabbing of each other as people try to get ahead in the world. There is all sorts of evil in our lives, both big and small. The magic of a Christmas morning with a tree loaded with present that sparkles in a child's eyes does not seem to me to be in the same category as what we might normally regard as ultimate evil.
Again though, people ought to be free to celebrate Christmas, or not, as they see fit, according to their own values. It certainly does not offend my value system for people to decline many of the aspects of Christmas that are not strictly Biblical.
So Merry Christmas to all.
 
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LoricaLady

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The question was about, specifically, SANTA. Not Jesus. My suggestion is that everyone stay on topic.
Stay on topic? The OP asks if it is good to teach children about Santa. Obviously the concerns would be first that he is a lie, and 2nd that he detracts from the Savior. That is totally on topic. What are you saying? Don't talk about the Savior? Don't talk about how Santa is NOT real, that he does NOT "live forever" as the letter your quoted says?
 
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LoricaLady

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If people equate Santa Claus with Satan, or the myth of Rudolph and the reindeer with an insidious lie that irreparably harms their children, then by all means this ought not be a part of their lives. This goes right along the lines of plucking out your right eye if it offends thee. By all means, remove all obstacles that may get in the way of your faith.
From my own experience, Christmas was a fun thing when I was a child, and it was fun for all of the kids in the family that came after me. We all figured it out soon enough what was real and what was pretend, with or without our parents pointing out the obvious.

For sure there have been plenty of people over the years who have lost the Christian faith that I have become acquainted with, but not one of them came to that conclusion from surmising that since Santa Claus was not real, what else were their parents stringing them on about? People are just a little more sophisticated than that, in general, but if you don't give your kids more credit than what might normally be expected, then by all means, it is better to be thrown in the sea with a millstone around your neck than to turn a child against Jesus. Don't go there if you think you kids will be turned off of Jesus by Santa.

By the way, a lot of the testimonies of people who have turned off of Christianity that I have heard, have centred on the stern joylessness of their parents version of faith, and none have been focused on the fact that their parents gave them parents from Santa or chocolates from the Easter bunny. I have never once heard anyone describe their parents as being abusive for giving them parents on Christmas, or chocolate at Easter, or money under their pillow from a tooth, and pretending that they were getting them magically from somebody else.

When it comes to Satan and demonic evil, I guess my own perspective is that we live in a world of hydrogen bombs and genocides and land mines and sexual abuse of children, and all kinds of backstabbing of each other as people try to get ahead in the world. There is all sorts of evil in our lives, both big and small. The magic of a Christmas morning with a tree loaded with present that sparkles in a child's eyes does not seem to me to be in the same category as what we might normally regard as ultimate evil.
Again though, people ought to be free to celebrate Christmas, or not, as they see fit, according to their own values. It certainly does not offend my value system for people to decline many of the aspects of Christmas that are not strictly Biblical.
So Merry Christmas to all.
We have at least two testimonies above of children being hurt by the lie of Santa. One asked if there is, then, a Jesus? Santa is a lie. You can't change that. You can't change the fact that the Bible says not to have lying lips. If we say Santa is real we are using lying lips. It's real simple.
 
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Devin P

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St. Nicolas of Myra is a recognized saint in all the historic churches. The "saints" are not super humans who walked around with halos about their heads, they were ordinary men and women which the Church remembers for their lives of faith and witness to Jesus Christ. The historical St. Nicolas of Myra is a saint by this definition, and is remembered as such by the Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Methodist, and Oriental Orthodox Churches along with the rest of the historically recognized saints. By definition that makes him a saint; as sainthood is nothing other than an honorific recognized by the Church as a whole.

If there was a real Nicolas of Myra, and he is recognized and remembered as a saint in the Christian Church, then that makes him a saint. What, exactly, do you think makes someone a "catholic saint"?
Because, there are historic records, in which, a person is called an actual saint in the church, which all saints are recorded. He, is not in those records. There is no record in the historic line of catholic saints. None, anywhere around that time period. You can deny it all you like, but there isn't, I'm sorry.

Do I, personally think that it matters if someone is a catholic saint? No, but he's depicted as a catholic saint, that the church remembers because of his acts. He might have existed, but the story of him being a catholic saint, is wrong.

To be a saint on the other hand, all you need to do is to love God, and be obedient to Him, as opposed to your own will, and the world. The children of God, are saints.
False. Saturnalia lasted from December 17th to December 23rd.
True, but saturnalia was for 7 days, but they would celebrate saturnalia, and then end it with the sol invictus celebration - which only lasted 2 days, from the 25th, to the 27th. So my apologies, I heard the whole thing lasted for 12 days altogether, but that was misinformation, you're right about the 12 days involving saturnalia.

However, the 12 days does in fact come from the festival called yuletide, which lasted from the 20th, to the 31st. They changed the dates in an attempt to remove the pagan worship, but historically, that didn't work out well. As it can be seen in the fact that christmas was illegal up until the late 1800's-early 1900's in the US because it didn't work, and pagan festivities would still continue to happen.
Saturnalia had nothing to do with sun god worship. Saturnalia was an observance that celebrated Saturn, cognate with the Greek titan Kronos. Neither Saturn nor Kronos are sun gods.
Saturnalia and Sol Invictus (which means unconquered sun) go hand in hand, pagans would celebrate both. Sol Invictus started on the 25th, and was the birth of the sun "god", but catholicism changed the birth of the "sun god" to the birth of the "son of God", in hopes to make it easier for pagans to change to christianity.

Odin however was a "god" that led his brothers and sisters (the titans) in a revolt against their father to become king of the "gods"... it's literally a story about satan man... and that is where we get most of our practices involving christmas from, if you want to justify this, go for it.

A common ancient headdress which was the basis for many later headdresses, that some ancient gods were depicted wearing it is irrelevant. Zeus is depicted as wearing sandals, that doesn't make sandals pagan and evil.
The phrygian hat, was worn by molech, which was recognized by the romans as the god of saturn, which is why I brought it up. The god that people would sacrifice their children to by molding metal of him and burning them in his metal hands, his metal bosom, or by simply burning them in fire before his feet, is now who parents the world over place their children on the lap of.

Not only that, but leaving food out for "gods", brother... santa is depicted as a god. He knows when you're sleeping, knows when you've been good or bad, can fly through the sky, has endless wealth and knows what children want and can give said gifts to every child on earth, whilst fitting through their chimneys and eating all of their cookies. He's got god-like qualities given to him that only God would be able to do, and we have a tradition in which we're offering food to him. It's a food offering man... it's literally a whoring out to another being, and even though parents don't believe in it, it's still a food offering to the "god" of saturn, that the child believes in.
Saturnalia lasted seven days, inclusive, from the 17th to the 23rd of December. The 12 days of Christmas refers to the Season of Christmas which lasts from Christmas Day until the day before Epiphany. The Christian Calendar is divided into seasons, Christmastide is one of those seasons.
This is correct. The 12 days however, comes from the 12 days of yuletide.
No. Yule was a Germanic tradition that honored Odin and the hunt during the winter season. Odin isn't a sun god.
No, he's not the sun god, but he's connected to the planet saturn. His son, was thor, and thor is called the son of saturn. Saturn is satan, if you look at the lore of each of the pagan gods, all throughout the histories of the cultures of the world, they all have an attributing to saturn, and the stories are the same - it is a "god" that led a revolt against their father, to become king of the "gods". So, it's still in celebration of the planet saturn, which is the same planet attributed to molech, which is a "god" that God, literally tells us not to have anything to do with, let alone making festivals and holiday traditions after them putting their names and traditions and ideas on par with Jesus in the minds of our children.

The earliest known recognizable Christmas trees date back to the early Lutherans of the 16th century. The practice of bringing in a tree into one's home doesn't date further back than this, prior to this decorated trees were found in parts of Germany around Christmas time since the Renaissance.
That's why I said that christmas trees aren't found until at least 1000 years after all of this. They did however bring the same exact type of tree that we use for christmas trees (an evergreen) in it's bush format into homes - my guess is because it's much easier to fit into homes? Idk, but they either brought clippings, or entire bushes into their homes. Just not the trees, as you stated, it came much later, and I agreed on this point in my OP.

Wreaths, yes. Reindeer didn't exist in the region of the Roman Empire, but live in the frozen north of Scandinavia. There are eight reindeer because that's the number which Clark Moore used in his famous poem T'was the Night Before Christmas. The earliest depiction of Santa with a reindeer-drawn sleigh comes from the early 19th century. The reindeer motif stems from the fact that in many parts of Europe Santa lives in Lapland, the north pole designation is a North American twist. Caroling--the act of singing as a group--is a Protestant thing, based on the Lutheran position that encouraged congregational singing; in the middle ages the singing of hymns was generally restricted to choirs, Martin Luther believed in a more active congregational participation in the Mass and encouraged and emphasized congregational singing.
We actually get the 8 reindeer because of odin's eight legged horse, but close. You have to realize that catholics wanted to make all of the pagan tradition to become appeasing to christians, so the transition was easier for the pagans, so they literally - they admitted to doing this - took ideas from all over paganism regarding practices of this time (saturnalia, yuletide, yule, and sol invictus) and made them their own.

Well, congratulations on getting everything wrong.

-CryptoLutheran
[/quote]
Eh, agree to disagree. I generally don't debate on here anymore because it takes so long to respond, especially to things like this. This took legit an hour, and I could've been doing anything else. I'll respond to the other message you sent me one of these days, it was on the pagan root and origin of words like hell, and holy and such, but because there were so many words and it'd take so incredibly long to show the origins of those words, only to have you most likely not believe me anyway, it's not too appealing of a way to spend an hour, hour and a half.

Regardless though, I realize we probably won't agree. If you want to celebrate christmas, even after knowing and reading what I've shown you regarding it's connection to saturn, the sun god, molech, go for it. Just know, biblically, it's not a good thing. None of it. It's ripped from paganism, and that alone should deter us.
 
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LoricaLady

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Because, there are historic records, in which, a person is called an actual saint in the church, which all saints are recorded. He, is not in those records. There is no record in the historic line of catholic saints. None, anywhere around that time period. You can deny it all you like, but there isn't, I'm sorry.

Do I, personally think that it matters if someone is a catholic saint? No, but he's depicted as a catholic saint, that the church remembers because of his acts. He might have existed, but the story of him being a catholic saint, is wrong.

To be a saint on the other hand, all you need to do is to love God, and be obedient to Him, as opposed to your own will, and the world. The children of God, are saints.

True, but saturnalia was for 7 days, but they would celebrate saturnalia, and then end it with the sol invictus celebration - which only lasted 2 days, from the 25th, to the 27th. So my apologies, I heard the whole thing lasted for 12 days altogether, but that was misinformation, you're right about the 12 days involving saturnalia.

However, the 12 days does in fact come from the festival called yuletide, which lasted from the 20th, to the 31st. They changed the dates in an attempt to remove the pagan worship, but historically, that didn't work out well. As it can be seen in the fact that christmas was illegal up until the late 1800's-early 1900's in the US because it didn't work, and pagan festivities would still continue to happen.

Saturnalia and Sol Invictus (which means unconquered sun) go hand in hand, pagans would celebrate both. Sol Invictus started on the 25th, and was the birth of the sun "god", but catholicism changed the birth of the "sun god" to the birth of the "son of God", in hopes to make it easier for pagans to change to christianity.

Odin however was a "god" that led his brothers and sisters (the titans) in a revolt against their father to become king of the "gods"... it's literally a story about satan man... and that is where we get most of our practices involving christmas from, if you want to justify this, go for it.


The phrygian hat, was worn by molech, which was recognized by the romans as the god of saturn, which is why I brought it up. The god that people would sacrifice their children to by molding metal of him and burning them in his metal hands, his metal bosom, or by simply burning them in fire before his feet, is now who parents the world over place their children on the lap of.

Not only that, but leaving food out for "gods", brother... santa is depicted as a god. He knows when you're sleeping, knows when you've been good or bad, can fly through the sky, has endless wealth and knows what children want and can give said gifts to every child on earth, whilst fitting through their chimneys and eating all of their cookies. He's got god-like qualities given to him that only God would be able to do, and we have a tradition in which we're offering food to him. It's a food offering man... it's literally a whoring out to another being, and even though parents don't believe in it, it's still a food offering to the "god" of saturn, that the child believes in.

This is correct. The 12 days however, comes from the 12 days of yuletide.

No, he's not the sun god, but he's connected to the planet saturn. His son, was thor, and thor is called the son of saturn. Saturn is satan, if you look at the lore of each of the pagan gods, all throughout the histories of the cultures of the world, they all have an attributing to saturn, and the stories are the same - it is a "god" that led a revolt against their father, to become king of the "gods". So, it's still in celebration of the planet saturn, which is the same planet attributed to molech, which is a "god" that God, literally tells us not to have anything to do with, let alone making festivals and holiday traditions after them putting their names and traditions and ideas on par with Jesus in the minds of our children.


That's why I said that christmas trees aren't found until at least 1000 years after all of this. They did however bring the same exact type of tree that we use for christmas trees (an evergreen) in it's bush format into homes - my guess is because it's much easier to fit into homes? Idk, but they either brought clippings, or entire bushes into their homes. Just not the trees, as you stated, it came much later, and I agreed on this point in my OP.


We actually get the 8 reindeer because of odin's eight legged horse, but close. You have to realize that catholics wanted to make all of the pagan tradition to become appeasing to christians, so the transition was easier for the pagans, so they literally - they admitted to doing this - took ideas from all over paganism regarding practices of this time (saturnalia, yuletide, yule, and sol invictus) and made them their own.
Eh, agree to disagree. I generally don't debate on here anymore because it takes so long to respond, especially to things like this. This took legit an hour, and I could've been doing anything else. I'll respond to the other message you sent me one of these days, it was on the pagan root and origin of words like hell, and holy and such, but because there were so many words and it'd take so incredibly long to show the origins of those words, only to have you most likely not believe me anyway, it's not too appealing of a way to spend an hour, hour and a half.

Regardless though, I realize we probably won't agree. If you want to celebrate christmas, even after knowing and reading what I've shown you regarding it's connection to saturn, the sun god, molech, go for it. Just know, biblically, it's not a good thing. None of it. It's ripped from paganism, and that alone should deter us.[/QUOTE]
The practice of cutting down trees and decorating them goes back to pagan days, too. The circular ornaments hung on them were considered to represent the testicles of one of their gods, Tamuz, I think. Here in the Bible we hear the Almighty's opinion on the topic:
Jeremiah 10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
 
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ViaCrucis

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The practice of cutting down trees and decorating them goes back to pagan days, too. The circular ornaments hung on them were considered to represent the testicles of one of their gods, Tamuz, I think. Here in the Bible we hear the Almighty's opinion on the topic:
Jeremiah 10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.

Jeremiah is condemning the practice of fashioning Asherim, or Asherah Poles. These were carved poles of wood decorated with gold and silver in honor of the Canaanite goddess Asherah.

These weren't decorated trees, these were carved wooden poles. Trying to compare the two is absurd, one might as well also condemn all woodcraft as evil and pagan as well, and the entire art of carpentry becomes an abomination. Silly? Yep.

That's why reading Scripture properly and in context matters.

This
taanach-cult-stand.jpg


is not this
150px-Christmas_tree_in_Poland_2004.jpg


-CryptoLutheran
 
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The practice of cutting down trees and decorating them goes back to pagan days, too. The circular ornaments hung on them were considered to represent the testicles of one of their gods, Tamuz, I think. Here in the Bible we hear the Almighty's opinion on the topic:
Jeremiah 10 Hear ye the word which the Lord speaketh unto you, O house of Israel:

2 Thus saith the Lord, Learn not the way of the heathen, and be not dismayed at the signs of heaven; for the heathen are dismayed at them.

3 For the customs of the people are vain: for one cutteth a tree out of the forest, the work of the hands of the workman, with the axe.

4 They deck it with silver and with gold; they fasten it with nails and with hammers, that it move not.
In context that's talking about Asherah poles, but I agree. They did bring whole bushes of the evergreen, or in some cases clippings from the evergreen bush or trees, but the Christmas trees themselves didn't start until much later.

I agree with your disdain of the entire practice though. It's the same exact day, with the same exact traditions, that are based in honor, honoring the same exact dieties they worshipped, with the same exact tree, in exactly the same manner, except our tradition has escalated to using the entire tree instead of a shrub or clippings from the same exact tree. It's all still the same thing, but slightly changed. Same day same lore just different names and a masked beginning.

The verse mentioning trees there was talking about the poles being used as idols though, crypto is right about that. The Christmas tree and the poles and orbs were used to represent the genitalia of the sun though you're right, same thing with the wreath representing his wife's womb. Who knows what catholicism has decided to say those things represent now, but that's the origin of those things for sure, you're absolutely right.
 
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