mainline churches and evangelicals

[PeaceByJesus]

I have noticed there seems to be a lot of animosity to mainline Protestant churches on this forum. I find this curious because there isn't nearly as much animosity in mainline churches against conservative and fundamentalist Christians, as vice versa.

There is animosity in mainline churches against conservative and fundamentalist Christians, this being in the form of liberals versus conservatives, since mainliners are overall liberal (including many Catholics) and fundamentalist evangelicals are conservatives.

And the animosity is to be expected, since the latter hold to Scripture as being the wholly inspired and accurate word of God, and thus are the most unified in core beliefs/values among major religious groups, and the most committed, and tend to reflect the attitude of Scripture against rejection of such, and point out the offenses.

However, liberals tend to see themselves as the enlightened elite and oversensitive to reproof, and to respond more by overall demonizing those who oppose them as "haters," "homophobic," "bigots," and such psychological use of language, while blind to their own bias and animosity.

Most of us are too busy getting on with our lives to debate religions that mostly seem interested in only villifing us. Some of us (though not necessarily myself), the ones with front-row seats in the Kingdom of God, are just "too blessed to stress".

When you really believe in something you should be willing to die for then it should be expected that this is expressed in words and deeds. Yet whether you see it or not, it seems that neither you nor certain other mainliners are too busy getting on with their lives to debate religions that mostly seem (to them) interested in only vilifying them.

Paradoxically, many of these liberals identify with a church that did far more than simply vilify those who ideologically opposed her.

If any mainliners do hold to Scripture being the wholly inspired and accurate word of God then the issue is how does this describe the attitude toward those who reject this authority and its universal moral laws.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

There seems to be a lot of "animosity" on this forum, period.

But, on the other hand, sometimes people simply accuse others of being hateful or "bashing", even when they have presented Biblical or historical arguments/evidence. Or even when they are asking honest questions based on that specific denomination's actual teachings (and backed up with official sources).

It's unfortunate, but people are often easily offended. Only having text to go on doesn't make that any less likely.

Your observation is valid and entirely fitting here.

 

[GingerBeer]

I have noticed there seems to be a lot of animosity to mainline Protestant churches on this forum. I find this curious because there isn't nearly as much animosity in mainline churches against conservative and fundamentalist Christians, as vice versa. Most of us are too busy getting on with our lives to debate religions that mostly seem interested in only villifing us. Some of us (though not necessarily myself), the ones with front-row seats in the Kingdom of God, are just "too blessed to stress".

Evangelical and fundamentalist groups publish a lot of anti-liberal, anti-cult, and anti-catholic literature. Maybe it is in the DNA to be against something?

 

[PeaceByJesus]

amariselle said: ↑

But, on the other hand, sometimes people simply accuse others of being hateful or "bashing", even when they have presented Biblical or historical arguments/evidence. Or even when they are asking honest questions based on that specific denomination's actual teachings (and backed up with official sources).

Well, it's difficult honestly due to the forum rules. I believe it's actually easier to openly be a Mormon on this forum, in that respect. So in potential debates, if we are pressed about a matter, we often are just backed into a corner and we have to just take our hands off the keyboard, fold them up, and walk away. A great many mainline Protestants would never even bother trying to negotiate those sort of rules in the first place, and wouldn't be able to discuss things that are actually relevant to how their denomination operates without fear of tripping over some sacred cow.

While i do not agree with the excessive ever-increasing regulations, the rules do not prevent providing reasoned and substantiated responses, versus accusing the reprover of being hateful, bigoted, or "bashing" etc. which type of thing rules are sppsd to hinder.

Though in my own denominations case, the actual hierarchy is relatively weak, issuing mostly vague, ambiguous, but thoughtful social statements and directives, and this is common in mainline denominations (with some exceptions, like Episcopalians or Methodists). The funding we send to headquarters, the exact way we do the liturgy, even the gender of the minister or whether we conduct a same-sex wedding is completely up to the local congregation.

Thanks for confirming what i said in a my 1st post on this thread.

The portrayal of us by conservative Christians, that we follow a centralized national leadership like lemmings, just isn't true. And this has been my experience not only in the ELCA, but also the Episcopal Church.

The portrayal of conservative Christians as portraying liberal religionists as following a centralized national leadership like lemmings is what just isn't true, except perhaps in politics. They tend to have a basic oneness of spirit though, as do evangelicals.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Evangelicalism is not a denomination. Those who identify with being Evangelical hail from Reformed Presbyterian, Reformed Baptists, Baptists, Methodist, NT Bible Churches, even Anglican and Church of England (John Stott was Church of England and some opined the 'pope' of Evangelicals).

Catholic too.
The Evangelical Catholic | Forming disciples, training leaders

 

[PeaceByJesus]

@☦Marius☦, But then I had a moving experience once, an encounter with an elderly German grandma that loves to hug everyone, even though she is so frail. It was so difficult for me (I'm an adult with autism and "aloof" at times, and neurotic about propriety) and I avoided it for some time, but she always offered to hug people, and for some reason I knew she wanted to hug me and was sad that I didn't. But I felt God guiding me to do that once.

That is very very touching, heart-warming, and almost made tears well up in this "hateful," fundamentalist "bigot" that the mainline experience seems to bring liberals to denigrate me as.

It was just like kissing an icon in how it felt to hug her.

But icons do not go around hugging people. By i wonder what the position with be on robotic 3d representative of "saints."

God had shown me a church filled with icons in that moment. And I think that says something about what is at the heart of the mainline experience. It's about unpretentious, hidden holiness, the Kingdom of God growing in quietness and patience like the lillies of the field.

What we think God illumines us about the nature and beliefs and spirit of the NT church will conflate to what is manifest in the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I've responded to quite a few of your posts which vilify, stereotype and insult non-mainline Christians.

Then again, forgive me as I might not be getting the entire story as the internet connection in my Fundamentalist, Evangelical wooden-tarpaulin shack (with Trump MAGA sign outside) in the Hillbilly West Virginia mountains is spotty at times.

Now excuse me while I have to go back into my bakeshop where I will deny two Arian heretics for wanting me to bake them a cake which says "Jesus was a lesser, created being." (sarc tag)
Forgive me,

Yes, you should be punished for refusing to create whatever work of art is requested, whether it be a Orthodox Jewish artist being required to make a work of art with a Nazis swastika or a devout Trad. RC of Martin Luther.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Evangelical and fundamentalist groups publish a lot of anti-liberal, anti-cult, and anti-catholic literature. Maybe it is in the DNA to be against something?

That must have been the case with those who penned such intolerant, anti-liberal, anti-cult, and anti-catholic literature such as,

And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them. (Ephesians 5:11)

Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints. (Jude 3)

Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:19-20)

I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: (Revelation 2:2)

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself. (Titus 3:10-11)

Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: (2 John 9-10)

Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. (Romans 16:17)

Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness? And what concord hath Christ with Belial? or what part hath he that believeth with an infidel? And what agreement hath the temple of God with idols? for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. (2 Corinthians 6:14-16)

One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; (Titus 1:12-13)

But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person. (1 Corinthians 5:13)

Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. (2 Thessalonians 3:6)

Against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses. Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear. (1 Timothy 5:19-20)

Which class of believers comes closest to this, while yet engaging in substantial humanitarian work?

 

[GingerBeer]

That must have been the case with those who penned such intolerant, anti-liberal, anti-cult, and anti-catholic literature such as [some verses from the bible follow]

The scriptures you quote say nothing about liberals, cults, or catholics.

 

[Tom 1]

I have noticed there seems to be a lot of animosity to mainline Protestant churches on this forum. I find this curious because there isn't nearly as much animosity in mainline churches against conservative and fundamentalist Christians, as vice versa. Most of us are too busy getting on with our lives to debate religions that mostly seem interested in only villifing us. Some of us (though not necessarily myself), the ones with front-row seats in the Kingdom of God, are just "too blessed to stress".

I can relate to where this comes from - my first contact with Christ was through a fundamentalist type Church. While there were some good things about it, it was very insular and the churches’
doctrines, although not exactly wrong per se, were based on some very ‘thin’ theology. The church had effectively removed itself from the context of mainstream Christianity because, as I see it, the guy who was the overall leader didn’t like having his ideas challenged. This attitude filtered down so what you basically had was a group of very sincere and committed people who started and remained with some basic notions about Christian living, who were very defensive about the idea that they were part of the ‘one true church’. Other churches were lumped together in different categories of ‘wrong’ because they didn’t accept that.

 

[redleghunter]

Evangelical and fundamentalist groups publish a lot of anti-liberal, anti-cult, and anti-catholic literature. Maybe it is in the DNA to be against something?

Sources?

 

[GingerBeer]

Sources?

I am sure you can find many if you look.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

The scriptures you quote say nothing about liberals, cults, or catholics.

Which absurdity is like saying the Constitution and Bill of Rights say nothing about Communist government.

Common Biblical sense tells you that when Scripture condemns those who

act contrary to Scriptural doctrine,
and do not abide in the doctrine of Christ,
and commands ecclesiastical separation from such,
and from if any man that is called a brother if he be a fornicator, etc.,
and the putting away of such wicked persons,
and to warn unScriptural heretic,
and reprove the unfruitful works of darkness,
and earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints;

then this applies to the category of persons who overall are characterized by impenitently supporting or engaging in what is condemned, and who fail to obey the commands of opposition to such.

Thus to escape this from being applied to liberals, cults, or Catholics, you must assert that each one is not characterized as coming closest what is listed here, versus the Evangelical and fundamentalist groups who malign.

Do you think liberals, cults or Catholics (as per self I.D.) are the ones who mostly deviate from Scriptural doctrine as manifested in the the only wholly inspired record of what the NT church believed (Acts - Rev.) - including how they understood the gospels? And mostly fail to ecclesiastically separate from such, and warn unScriptural heretics, and reprove the unfruitful works of darkness, and earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints, as revealed in that inspired record?

Substantiate what you say, as i intend to myself, by God's grace.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Sources?

That's easy:

New Testament memory list by color:​

Matthew, Mark, Luke, John;

Acts, Romans, 1st and 2nd Corinthians;

Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians;

1st and 2nd Thessalonians, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus;

Philemon, Hebrews, James;
1st and 2nd Peter, 1st and 2nd and 3rd John, Jude, Revelation

 

[Phil 1:21]

Still trying to figure out why the poster sandwiched cults between liberals and Catholics. Seems a bit harsh to me. I know a lot of liberals and Catholics and I wouldn't lump them in with cults like that. Besides, what's the problem with being against cults? I mean, unless one is defending cults or something. Strange.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's easy:
New Testament memory list by color:hew, Mark, Luke, John;
Acts, Romans, 1st and 2nd Corinthians;
Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians;
1st and 2nd Thessalonians, 1st and 2nd Timothy, Titus;
Philemon, Hebrews, James;
1st and 2nd Peter, 1st and 2nd and 3rd John, Jude, Revelation

Looks easy,
but the groups that don't hear His Voice, that are opposed to His Word, don't like this list.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Still trying to figure out why the poster sandwiched cults between liberals and Catholics. Seems a bit harsh to me. I know a lot of liberals and Catholics and I wouldn't lump them in with cults like that. Besides, what's the problem with being against cults? I mean, unless one is defending cults or something. Strange.

From different perspectives, people see different things that are still hidden to others,
especially by YHWH'S Grace and Revelation in Jesus.....
Keep Seeking His Kingdom, Always, Every Day,
and the list grows much much bigger....

 

[PeaceByJesus]

I can relate to where this comes from - my first contact with Christ was through a fundamentalist type Church. While there were some good things about it, it was very insular and the churches’
doctrines, although not exactly wrong per se, were based on some very ‘thin’ theology. The church had effectively removed itself from the context of mainstream Christianity because, as I see it, the guy who was the overall leader didn’t like having his ideas challenged. This attitude filtered down so what you basically had was a group of very sincere and committed people who started and remained with some basic notions about Christian living, who were very defensive about the idea that they were part of the ‘one true church’. Other churches were lumped together in different categories of ‘wrong’ because they didn’t accept that.

Been there to a good degree, but i am glad to have to, because the level of commitment to such basics of the Christian life as holy living and doctrine, though they were not always correct about some things (rapture, OSAS, Cessationism).

But if your object of obedience is the Lord Jesus as revealed in Scripture, with a heart to obey (not that mine is completely submissive) you can grow within it and out of that type of church, who as typically more militant, are somewhat like the Marines of Christian faith.

 

[PeaceByJesus]

Still trying to figure out why the poster sandwiched cults between liberals and Catholics. Seems a bit harsh to me. I know a lot of liberals and Catholics and I wouldn't lump them in with cults like that. Besides, what's the problem with being against cults? I mean, unless one is defending cults or something. Strange.

Well, my response was to a typical attack (by GingerBeer this time) on evangelical and fundamentalist groups as being the bad guys since they "publish a lot of anti-liberal, anti-cult, and anti-catholic literature," and indeed there should be no censure of being against cults, but since liberals being liberals means they are against theological or Biblical moral dogmatism then they tend to have a knee-jerk reaction against "Bible Christians" who oppose them.

And since they like to imagine themselves as enlightened tolerant folks then they tend to present themselves as the protectors of the big bad conservative evangelical-types, with the most they do, as i was told in a recent thread, was to "set out pew cards, which are given to the Evangelism team, who go out and call upon these poor saps and try to lead them to Christ--learning."And who are mostly Christian already.

To who i was happy to provide research in my response that they likely provided most (among Christian groups) of the humanitarian aid from private donations in 3rd world countries, while evangelical must have the overall priority, but which is not to be divorced by aid for the whole person. In my area, it is mainly such who are doing the actual work on the street.

Of course it is the liberals who manifest themselves as being the most intolerant of public opposition, and often respond to what refutes them by calling their reprovers "haters," "bigots," "homophobic" etc.. And who would were turn America in to the snowflake society we read daily about in universities, with the devil as the dean being a proxy servant to promote the demonic victim-entitlement mentality that the devil first manifested in the first "occupy movement" (Isaiah 14:14) and its selfish "share the wealth" demand seen therein and in the garden of Eden. (Genesis 3). And yet some wonder why we should oppose it.

As for Catholics being lumped together with cults, i think they also were lumped together in the sense of being victims of the neanderthal fundamentalists, who are more or less lumped together with Westboro Baptist types by the same tolerant, fair-minded objective enlightened liberal elites.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

I have noticed there seems to be a lot of animosity to mainline Protestant churches on this forum. I find this curious because there isn't nearly as much animosity in mainline churches against conservative and fundamentalist Christians, as vice versa. Most of us are too busy getting on with our lives to debate religions that mostly seem interested in only villifing us. Some of us (though not necessarily myself), the ones with front-row seats in the Kingdom of God, are just "too blessed to stress".

The animosity has decreased to some extent, however part of that perception may be the length of my ignore list. It is possible nothing has changed at all, but I see positive changes for sure.