how do people who believe in eternal torture in fire

[Anguspure]

Here is some of what Jesus had to say about hell.

Matthew 13:41-42, 49-50 “The Son of Man will send his angels, and they will gather out of his kingdom all causes of sin and all law-breakers, and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. So it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous and throw them into the fiery furnace. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Mark 9:43, 48-49 “And if your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than with two hands to go to hell, to the unquenchable fire…where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched.’ For everyone will be salted with fire.”

Matthew 22:13 “Bind him hand and foot and cast him into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 8:12 “while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness. In that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

Matthew 25:46 “And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Luke 16:23 “being in torment, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.”

Luke 12:5 “But I will warn you whom to fear: fear him who, after he has killed, has authority to cast into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him!”

Nothing there about eternal life in hell.

 

[Anguspure]

"O.K. so, how do you people who believe in eternal torture in fire, how do you tuck your children in at night and explain to them that God loves you but if you don't love Him He is going to torture you in fire, not for the length of your favorite video, not for the length of a day, not even for the length of a year but it will be unending. Mommy and Daddy will be in heaven while you writhe in unimaginable suffering because this is what God does to those who don't love Him."

"So how do you explain to your children about God's love? Do you tell them the truth that you love your children more than God does and you would never harm your children even if they don't love you?"

"There has to come a time when you tell them the truth, don't you think?"

"This is not sarcasm. It is letting those who believe in eternal torment come to grips with their beliefs. If they are honest with themselves they have to tell their children these things.
After all, we wouldn't want to sugar coat something so serious as a loving God torturing people for billions and billions and billions and billions of years without end, those who do not love Him, now would we?"

"And if your children only love Him to escape such a fate, what kind of hypocritical love is that?"

"As a child, camping out, I would ask my friends as we sat around the campfire and looking into it: "How can God burn people in fire for e--t--e--r--n--i--t--y?" No one would say a word. But it always bugged me. As I grew up and started visiting hell-fire churches, it was psychologically horrifying. It's like the people that attend those churches do so for the thrill of having the begeebies scared out of them. Kind of like thrill seekers. I was so glad to leave that behind and find out about God's love and plan for all mankind."

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"Yep. People who say that they believe in Hell aren't remotely serious. If they were, they would be catatonic."

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"I went through a phase where I strongly believed in ET. I lost my appetite (and thus a lot of weight) and was constantly anxious. It was terrible."


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"That is indeed the seat of a LOT of mental health concerns many Christians who subscribe to it suffer; consequently, I can understand certain over-the-top reactions by some
supposed non-believers."


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"Basically Hell is a component in an intellectual construct that many people toy with in their minds. Nobody believes in Hell in the same way that I believe that I love my daughter,
that my mother loves me, that the sky is blue, etc."

Concerning 1 Timothy 4:10

------------------------------------------------



Have you been decieved by your Bible translation?

The root of the problem seems to be an unbiblical beleif in unconditional human immortality, that the human soul cannot die.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Nothing there about eternal life in hell.

are you saying that hell is not eternal?

 

[Anguspure]

are you saying that hell is not eternal?

Hell might be eternal but the lives of the things thrown into it, are not.
Whoever forgets the Tree of Life forgets that the life of a person is conditional upon us eating of His fruit.
Unconditional human immortality is not a Biblical concept.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

Hell might be eternal but the lives of the things thrown into it, are not.
Whoever forgets the Tree of Life forgets that the life of a person is conditional upon us eating of His fruit.
Unconditional human immortality is not a Biblical concept.

So, you believe in annihilation? that all sinners after they die, at some point in time, will "cease to exist"? Surely this makes all the warnings and threats that God makes against unrepentant sinners, a complete waste of time, and pointless? So, when Jesus says, "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5), His words are completely meaningless? When Jesus said to Judas, that it "was better that you were not born" (Matthew 26:24), before Judas committed the greatest act of the betrayal of God, His words were just empty, and not to be taken seriously? Exactly what was the whole point of Jesus coming to suffer and die, if it were not for sin and its consequences? To believe that a sinner is simply wiped out of existence after they die, is an insult to the God of the Bible, Who, from Genesis to Revelation has actually wasted His time, with empty warning and threats to sinners, when in fact nothing will ever be done to them!

 

[ClementofA]

I wonder why you skip verse 46 of this chapter?
16:46
And thine elder sister is Samaria, she and her daughters that dwell at thy left hand: and thy younger sister, that dwelleth at thy right hand, is Sodom and her daughters.

When we look at this verse we can clearly see that God is not talking about the actual city of Sodom.
But He is saying that Israel in this instance is Sodom and her daughters.

What gives you that idea? Sodom was wiped out by fire from God.

New International Version
Your older sister was Samaria, who lived to the north of you with her daughters; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you with her daughters, was Sodom.

New Living Translation
"Your older sister was Samaria, who lived with her daughters in the north. Your younger sister was Sodom, who lived with her daughters in the south.

English Standard Version
And your elder sister is Samaria, who lived with her daughters to the north of you; and your younger sister, who lived to the south of you, is Sodom with her daughters.

Sodom was wiped out by fire from God. Yet will be restored:

Ezek.16:53 “Nevertheless, I will restore their captivity, the captivity of Sodom and her daughters, the captivity of Samaria and her daughters, and along with them your own captivity, 54in order that you may bear your humiliation and feel ashamed for all that you have done when you become a consolation to them. 55“Your sisters, Sodom with her daughters and Samaria with her daughters, will return to their former state, and you with your daughters will also return to your former state.

In verse 1 of this chapter Paul says that we are justified by faith. Not everybody has faith.
2 Thessalonians 3:2 And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith.
In Hebrews 4:2 we see that the preaching of the Gospel must be mixed with faith and the Gospel did not profit those who fell in the wilderness because of there unbelief.

Yet everyone will be saved:

Rom 5:18 Consequently, then, as it was through one offense for all mankind for condemnation, thus also it is through one just act for all mankind for life's justifying."

Rom 5:19 For even as, through the disobedience of the one man, the many were constituted sinners, thus also, through the obedience of the One, the many shall be constituted just."

#4 – What Biblical Scholars Say about the Word “Aionios”

 

[Anguspure]

So, you believe in annihilation? that all sinners after they die, at some point in time, will "cease to exist"? Surely this makes all the warnings and threats that God makes against unrepentant sinners, a complete waste of time, and pointless? So, when Jesus says, "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5), His words are completely meaningless? When Jesus said to Judas, that it "was better that you were not born" (Matthew 26:24), before Judas committed the greatest act of the betrayal of God, His words were just empty, and not to be taken seriously? Exactly what was the whole point of Jesus coming to suffer and die, if it were not for sin and its consequences? To believe that a sinner is simply wiped out of existence after they die, is an insult to the God of the Bible, Who, from Genesis to Revelation has actually wasted His time, with empty warning and threats to sinners, when in fact nothing will ever be done to them!

It is a hard heart that considers that eternal death is not horror enough.
Certainly Christ Jesus sweated blood at the prospect and He knew that He would only be dead for 3 days.
However if the concept of eternal life in hell was revealed in scripture I would consider it as truth.
But is not.
Where ever we find that it might be, we can see that it is a twisting of Hellenist translators importing their own ideas into the text.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

It is a hard heart that considers that eternal death is not horror enough.
Certainly Christ Jesus sweated blood at the prospect and He knew that He would only be dead for 3 days.
However if the concept of eternal life in hell was revealed in scripture I would consider it as truth.
But is not.
Where ever we find that it might be, we can see that it is a twisting of Hellenist translators importing their own ideas into the text.

this is a distortion of the Gospel!

 

[Anguspure]

this is a distortion of the Gospel!

How so?
The penalty for sin is death.
The gospel is that Christ Jesus died, was buried and in the 3rd day rose from the dead that all who beleive in Him will not perish but inherit eternal life.
Nothing in the gospel promises us eternal life apart from Christ Jesus, the vine, and remaining in Him.

 

[AACJ]

The root of the problem seems to be an unbiblical beleif in unconditional human immortality, that the human soul cannot die.

No, that is not the "root of the problem." The primary issues are justice, accountability, and perfect atonement. All the alternatives to everlasting punishment fail in one or more of these.

 

[AACJ]

It is a hard heart that considers that eternal death is not horror enough.
Certainly Christ Jesus sweated blood at the prospect and He knew that He would only be dead for 3 days.
However if the concept of eternal life in hell was revealed in scripture I would consider it as truth.
But is not.
Where ever we find that it might be, we can see that it is a twisting of Hellenist translators importing their own ideas into the text.

You do not want everlasting punishment to be true. Isn't that right? What, did you have a friend or loved that died in their sins or committed suicide, and alternatives to everlasting Hell-fire just makes such tragedies more acceptable or tolerable to you?

 

[Divide]

The living and holy God must think of "sin" as so inexplicably abhorrent, and sooooo horrendous that He did something as drastic as sending His only begotten Son to die "For US, ALL of us" to keep us from such a place.

Thank God for His grace, amen?

Right. For God so loved the world, that He gave...

 

[AACJ]

So, you believe in annihilation? that all sinners after they die, at some point in time, will "cease to exist"? Surely this makes all the warnings and threats that God makes against unrepentant sinners, a complete waste of time, and pointless? So, when Jesus says, "unless you repent, you will all likewise perish" (Luke 13:3, 5), His words are completely meaningless? When Jesus said to Judas, that it "was better that you were not born" (Matthew 26:24), before Judas committed the greatest act of the betrayal of God, His words were just empty, and not to be taken seriously? Exactly what was the whole point of Jesus coming to suffer and die, if it were not for sin and its consequences? To believe that a sinner is simply wiped out of existence after they die, is an insult to the God of the Bible, Who, from Genesis to Revelation has actually wasted His time, with empty warning and threats to sinners, when in fact nothing will ever be done to them!

That's the heart of the matter. Annihilationism promotes an alternative to overcoming rebellion and sin. In the model of Annihilationism, sin no longer has power over the infidel that kills himself.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

How so?
The penalty for sin is death.
The gospel is that Christ Jesus died, was buried and in the 3rd day rose from the dead that all who beleive in Him will not perish but inherit eternal life.
Nothing in the gospel promises us eternal life apart from Christ Jesus, the vine, and remaining in Him.

Indeed it is death, known in the Bible as the "second death", in the "lake of fire", which the Bible very clearly says, "A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” (Revelation 14:9-11). Which says that all those who have the "mark of the beast", the lost, will be "tormented" "forever and ever", with no mention that this will ever cease! Yet you and those who support "annihilation" have openly challenged the Word of Almighty God, because this is something that they cannot accept, and see as unjust, and have removed the "eternal, unending punishment" of the wicked. What is the point in saying, "flee from the wrath that is to come"? (Matthew 3:7), when it is meaningless! The wicked live lives that are against the Just and Holy God of the Holy Bible, and though time and again they are warned and threatened that will suffer "eternal punishment" for this, modern "theology" has seen to it that the threats of God are all a bluff, and not to be taken seriously!!! This is the devils work, like those to now promote the heresy that sinners no longer need to "repent" in order to be saved!

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

That's the heart of the matter. Annihilationism promotes an alternative to overcoming rebellion and sin. In the model of Annihilationism, sin no longer has power over the infidel that kills himself.

Indeed, you have hit the nail on the head! "PROMOTES", the work of the devil himself, who is deceiving millions into a false security, that they can live lives of utter rebellion and wickedness, and ignore and mock and laugh at all the threats that God makes in His Word about the future eternal suffering that they deserve, because some in the church has so diluted the Gospel Message, that it does not say what it does any more. It is what the devil said to Adam and Eve, "hath God said?", which is a direct challenge to God's honesty and character! It is interesting that in the Greek language there are words that are used just for "annihilation", but are never used in the New Testament! Those that are, and are translated, "perish", "destroy", etc, never carry this meaning! Surely God knows what He is on about, and made sure that He has told us what we need to know, without modern "theology" not tampering with His Word?

 

[Cat Loaf You]

You simply don't tell them just like Jesus did not tell people who would not understand . He spoke in parables not to make things easier but so they won't understand so they will not be more punished . But childrens are protected anyways untill age of accountability , in deut we can see Jews under 20 year old would enter that land but everybody who rebel against God and did not trust him above 20 year would die in wilderness .

So in short you don't tell them just as you don't tell kids what sex is or what are drugs . You explain it to them when they grow up .

 

[Mark Corbett]

Indeed it is death, known in the Bible as the "second death" . . .

I fully agree that the fate of the unrighteous is "the second death". What does the "second death" refer to? I spent a long time prayerfully studying what the Bible says about this. The result was perhaps my most in depth ever blog series. Studying this issue also led me to spend a lot of time trying to understand the book of Revelation a little better. I was greatly encouraged by what I found. If interested, you can read it here (then I hope you will come back to this thread where we can discuss it):

What is the Second Death?

 

[Sopranino Player]

--------->Jesus quotes Isaiah 66:24 and refers to gehenna as the place where “their worm does not die.” Critics of conditionalism often misquote or misunderstand the idiom as depicting a consuming maggot that eternally feeds upon but never fully consumes its host, and I had explained that quite the opposite is true. Similar to the scavengers of Deuteronomy 28:26 and Jeremiah 7:33 which will not be frightened away and prevented from fully consuming carrion, the worm “will not be prevented by death from fully consuming dead [bodies] … their shame is made permanent and everlasting by being fully consumed.”1

Of course this image is only the first of two which Isaiah and Jesus use to paint their horrifying picture of final punishment. Just as the worm will not die, they promise that “the fire is not quenched,” an idiom that appears in a very similar form just a few verses before Christ’s appeal to Isaiah when he calls gehenna “the unquenchable fire” (Mark 9:43). Elsewhere John the Baptist says that God “will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12 and Luke 3:17). Traditionalists typically understand these phrases to mean that the fire will never go out, implying that its fuel—the unredeemed—will exist eternally, being burned forever, yet never completely consumed. But as we’ll see, this idiom is as misunderstood as its abhorrent parallel.


Neither Isaiah 66:24 nor Mark 9:48 say that the worm will “never” die. If we were to consistently take “will not die” to mean “will never die,” we would make a mess of Scripture. Joseph tells his brothers in Genesis 42:20, “Bring your youngest brother to me, so your words may be verified, and you will not die.” The Lord directs Moses in Exodus 30:20, “When they enter the tent of meeting, they shall wash with water, so that they will not die.” Zedekiah says to Jeremiah in Jeremiah 38:24, “Let no man know about these words and you will not die.” Obviously Joseph’s brothers did not think he was promising them immortality; Moses was not assured that by washing with water when entering the tent the priests would never die; Jeremiah did not take Zedekiah to mean he would live forever by remaining silent.

But we should probably give the traditionalist authors I quoted earlier the benefit of the doubt; perhaps their use of words like “never” and “eternity” is not misquotation, or a mere assumption that “will not ditm the iiio
~http://www.rethinkinghell.com/2012/07/their-worm-does-not-die-annihilation-and-mark-948/

I just wanted to comment that your post has encouraged me to be more cautious in my reading.

 

[TheBibleIsTruth]

I fully agree that the fate of the unrighteous is "the second death". What does the "second death" refer to? I spent a long time prayerfully studying what the Bible says about this. The result was perhaps my most in depth ever blog series. Studying this issue also led me to spend a lot of time trying to understand the book of Revelation a little better. I was greatly encouraged by what I found. If interested, you can read it here (then I hope you will come back to this thread where we can discuss it):

What is the Second Death?

Thanks Mark, I read your blog on this and found it to be quite interesting. However, you have failed in one very important aspect, which is to show from any of the lexical uses of the words, especially in the Greek New Testament, that are used to show "annihilation" is ever meant. When, for example Jesus speaks of God "destroying" both "body and soul" in hell (Matthew 10:28), the Greek word that He uses, is not "αφανισμός", which is the word denoting "annihilation", but "ἀπόλλυμι", which is never used in this sense. "ἀπόλλυμι", is also translated "perish" in places like John 3:16, where the meaning is never "annihilation". The meaning of to "wipe out completely", is never found in the Greek words used in the New Testament, when describing the "destruction" of the wicked in hell. Can you provide any lexical evidence which shows that "annihilation" is meant in any passage of Scripture, when speaking of the final state of the lost, in the "second death"? Leaving "theology" aside, we must base our understanding of what the Bible teaches, on solid evidence, and not personal bias. I would have thought that any study on a serious subject as "eternal punishment", would require a thorough investigation into the original language used, as this is more reliable than English, or any other translating language. You refer to the much used "symbolism" in the Book of Revelation, and fact that "symbolic" language is used in Scripture, to justify your position. But this in no way means that we can apply this language meaning to "eternal punishment". As I have said elsewhere, "annihilation" reduces all the warnings and threats by God, to nothing more than a farce, as it matters not really what God threatens the wicked with, because He will actually not do anything, as they will "cease to exist"! For Jesus to tell Judas that it would have been "better if he were never born", was a complete waste of time, because Judas has been "wiped out" at death!

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

I skipped over a few replies, so I am not sure this was adequately covered.
It is actually something important that children need to learn growing up. It is called consequences. A righteous and just God would have the authority to judge those who did wrong. Hell is the consequence and judgment of sin. To not pass judgment for sin would be to infer that God was not just. Doing wrong=punishment. Since sin is in our human nature at birth, we are predisposed to this judgment and need only believe to be freed from sin, which is, to say the least, a relief. I am glad God is just and righteous. Even more so am I glad that he loves us enough to have made a way out of sin for us. Sort of the same notion as if your kids got arrested and you went and bailed them out.