13 Reasons not to pray through Virgin Mary

[Goatee]

Yet another Catholic bashing thread!

God bless you all

 

[FenderTL5]

Yet another Catholic bashing thread!

God bless you all

It's sad isn't it?
Saying a prayer for you.

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

Ekklesia walk with Jesus and with the Father ,
in union with them, EVERY DAY - awake, asleep, meals, work, play, leisure, ALL THE TIME.

and may I add to this rhetoric and reiterate what Jesus tells us, "Take up your cross daily." Not just on Sundays.

 

[MyGivenNameIsKeith]

This question "do you know if you died today where you are going to go?" is only meaningful if you assume the Baptist assumptions about what it means to be a Christian.

I do not know with absolute certainty where I am going when I die (and neither do you). I believe that God has accepted me as his own through my baptism, he has enlightened me with the Holy Spirit and kept me in the true faith.

Through the Holy Spirit, we are given the KNOWLEDGE of what will happen after our mortal forms perish. We are given the spirit of power; not the spirit of fear and unassuredness. I know for certain where I'm going to be, just the same way as I know for certain where all who trust in the Lord will be. I believe the sun will rise tomorrow and I believe my car will start in the morning. I know I'm going to heaven when I die because Jesus died for my sins, I believed, and was changed and now the Holy Spirit dwells within me. Once you are past "believing", you know. It's called conviction. I believe in your heart. I don't doubt it. I would actually hear both sides of this Mary fence. We've heard 13 reasons against, now I'd like to hear the 13 reasons for praying trough Mary from someone who does. For the sake of glorifying the Lord of course. Rather than keeping people assuming, We are all Word educated apparently so no need to point out doctrinal differences immediately, if one does, reply as a question so the issues and points can be addressed.

 

[ViaCrucis]

What is the actual Catholic teaching about Mary?

Roman Catholic teaching on Mary:
Mary Menu
What the Catholic Church Teaches About Mary | The Catholic Company
Mariology of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

Relevant material from the Catechism of the Catholic Church here that addresses, indirectly and directly, here:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - "He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary"
Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in the Holy Spirit
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

For the most part Roman Catholic teaching on Mary is mostly the same as the Orthodox and Lutheran teachings (because it's mostly just generic, basic Christian teaching), with certain caveats, distinctions, and differences. For example the Catholic Church teaches the assumption of Mary, whereas the Orthodox teach the dormition of Mary. Catholicism teaches the immaculate conception of Mary, but Orthodoxy doesn't. Lutherans, Catholics, and Orthodox all acknowledge the perpetual virginity, though it's not a sword most Lutherans feel the need to fall on, but it is clearly mentioned in our Confessions (our Confessions call her semper virgine, "ever-virgin") And of course we all teach that Mary is Theotokos and mother of God, because it is a matter of fundamental Christian orthodoxy that Jesus Christ, our Lord, is true God and true man in perfect hypostatic union, without confusion, division, or separation. Denial that Mary is the mother of God is a denial of the Hypostatic Union, that God became man.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Tom 1]

Roman Catholic teaching on Mary:
Mary Menu
What the Catholic Church Teaches About Mary | The Catholic Company
Mariology of the Catholic Church - Wikipedia

Relevant material from the Catechism of the Catholic Church here that addresses, indirectly and directly, here:
Catechism of the Catholic Church - "He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit, and born of the Virgin Mary"
Catechism of the Catholic Church - I believe in the Holy Spirit
Catechism of the Catholic Church - Mary - Mother of Christ, Mother of the Church

For the most part Roman Catholic teaching on Mary is mostly the same as the Orthodox and Lutheran teachings (because it's mostly just generic, basic Christian teaching), with certain caveats, distinctions, and differences. For example the Catholic Church teaches the assumption of Mary, whereas the Orthodox teach the dormition of Mary. Catholicism teaches the immaculate conception of Mary, but Orthodoxy doesn't. Lutherans, Catholics, and Orthodox all acknowledge the perpetual virginity, though it's not a sword most Lutherans feel the need to fall on, but it is clearly mentioned in our Confessions (our Confessions call her semper virgine, "ever-virgin") And of course we all teach that Mary is Theotokos and mother of God, because it is a matter of fundamental Christian orthodoxy that Jesus Christ, our Lord, is true God and true man in perfect hypostatic union, without confusion, division, or separation. Denial that Mary is the mother of God is a denial of the Hypostatic Union, that God became man.

-CryptoLutheran

Thanks

 

[Major1]

In the hopes of pulling this thread back on topic, I think before you can say any of this as an argument against praying through Mary, you need to come up with an argument that what Catholics are doing is actually worshiping Mary, because they don't view it like that. I've personally been considering the whole praying through Mary arguments, and simply can't find any scriptural basis for it. I would love to hear why Catholics believe so firmly in this practice, if any Catholics on this thread would like to enlighten me.

The bottom line is that Catholics have elevated Mary to a position equal to Jesus Christ.
That is the reason they pray through Mary.

The truth is.....there is NO Scriptural for their practices on Mary which include many other things beyond praying through Mary.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Yet another Catholic bashing thread!

God bless you all

Actually, it seems to me that "Catholic bashing" entails any form of questioning concerning Catholics and their Church. In this case I do not see that any Catholics are being bashed. The Pope is not being criticized. What is being criticized is a particular doctrine of the Catholic Church which has not been declared a dogma. In an ideal Catholic Forum this thread could not exist because it is heresy to do anything other than meekly submit oneself to anything and everything the Catholic Church believes and does.

 

[bbbbbbb]

The bottom line is that Catholics have elevated Mary to a position equal to Jesus Christ.
That is the reason they pray through Mary.

The truth is.....there is NO Scriptural for their practices on Mary which include many other things beyond praying through Mary.

As I am sure you know by now, scripture is of minor significance to Catholics. What matters to Catholics is Tradition as propounded by their Magisterium. Thus, a variety of dogmas and doctrines have been devised which are uniquely Catholic.

 

[FireDragon76]

The bottom line is that Catholics have elevated Mary to a position equal to Jesus Christ.

This is more of a reflection of your religion's polemics against all things catholic than an honest statement.

 

[Major1]

This is more of a reflection of your religion's polemics against all things catholic than an honest statement.

Actually it is not my friend. IF you had read any of my comments you would have know that I am not a "religionist" or a denominational person but instead am I Bible person.

It is a statement of accepted and proven facts. You might want to do some study on what the RCC actually teaches and what YOU think the RCC teaches.

A Catholic would of course deny this, but their teachings and practices involving Mary prove otherwise.

Pope Pius IX put it in these words.........
“The most Blessed Virgin Mary was from the first moment of conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin” (Catechism, 138).

That comment alone places Mary as the ONLY person other than the God-Man, Jesus in a state of no sin.
IF that is not an elevation of equality, then what is it my friend??????

Catholic doctrine also teaches that Mary was sinless her entire life. On page 138 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read...........
“The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Paragia) and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.’ By the grace of God Mary remained free from every personal sin her whole life long.”

If Mary were free from sin, she did not know it. In her “Magnificant,” she praised God her “Savior.”

Luke 1:46-47.............
“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior”.

The point being that if Mary had been sinless and perfect, she would not have needed a Savior.

Are you sure you want to continue with your line of understanding or do you thin you should do some study first then get back tome?

 

[Vicomte13]

A question for you: will God be in the presence of sin?

 

[FireDragon76]

In Catholic theology, being sinless does not necessarily make one equal to God. Traditionally, John the Baptist was also believed to be born without sin, yet there was no confusion about who was in charge.

 

[Goatee]

Actually, it seems to me that "Catholic bashing" entails any form of questioning concerning Catholics and their Church. In this case I do not see that any Catholics are being bashed. The Pope is not being criticized. What is being criticized is a particular doctrine of the Catholic Church which has not been declared a dogma. In an ideal Catholic Forum this thread could not exist because it is heresy to do anything other than meekly submit oneself to anything and everything the Catholic Church believes and does.

And any thread where the word 'Catholic' appears we have the usual Catholic basher suspects!

 

[Goatee]

Actually it is not my friend. IF you had read any of my comments you would have know that I am not a "religionist" or a denominational person but instead am I Bible person.

It is a statement of accepted and proven facts. You might want to do some study on what the RCC actually teaches and what YOU think the RCC teaches.

A Catholic would of course deny this, but their teachings and practices involving Mary prove otherwise.

Pope Pius IX put it in these words.........
“The most Blessed Virgin Mary was from the first moment of conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin” (Catechism, 138).

That comment alone places Mary as the ONLY person other than the God-Man, Jesus in a state of no sin.
IF that is not an elevation of equality, then what is it my friend??????

Catholic doctrine also teaches that Mary was sinless her entire life. On page 138 of the Catechism of the Catholic Church, we read...........
“The Fathers of the Eastern tradition call the Mother of God ‘the All-Holy’ (Paragia) and celebrate her as ‘free from any stain of sin, as though fashioned by the Holy Spirit and formed as a new creature.’ By the grace of God Mary remained free from every personal sin her whole life long.”

If Mary were free from sin, she did not know it. In her “Magnificant,” she praised God her “Savior.”

Luke 1:46-47.............
“And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior”.

The point being that if Mary had been sinless and perfect, she would not have needed a Savior.

Are you sure you want to continue with your line of understanding or do you thin you should do some study first then get back tome?

Major1.

You ALWAYS bash Catholic beliefs. There you are a non-denom. A man in a boat without a rudder!

The Catholic Church has Jesus at its helm. The gates of hell will NOT prevail against it.

All through church history, people like you have tried to shoot down the doctrine of the Catholic Church, while at the same time being lost at sea!

If it's not in the Bible, you are against it. That means you must be against the word Trinity as that's not in the Bible!

The beauty of the Catholic church is that we have Sacred Scripture entwined with Sacred Tradition. Guided by the Holy Spirit.

I think you need to study scripture a bit more my friend. Open your mind and heart and let the Holy Spirit guide you to the real truth. That is, the Catholic Church!

God bless you buddy

 

[concretecamper]

Pope Pius IX put it in these words.........
“The most Blessed Virgin Mary was from the first moment of conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God and by the merits of Jesus Christ, Savior of the human race, preserved immune from all stain of original sin” (Catechism, 138).

The point being that if Mary had been sinless and perfect, she would not have needed a Savior.

Such an incoherent argument.

So you quote a Pope who confirms Catholic teaching that Mary needed a Savior and then you interpret in your own warped way and argue that scripture supports Mary didn't need a savior?

 

[Major1]

A question for you: will God be in the presence of sin?

I do not know why so many Catholic believers live in a world of "got cha".

There is always this attempt to frame a position in a way where someone will answer the question and that person will then use the answer to say something like..........."SEE, I TOLD YOU".

It seems to me that Catholic believers are always trying to reject the Word of God.

Anyway, The question....."Can God be in the presence of sin" indicates that you do not know the Bible very well at all.

Habakkuk 1:13.........
"Your eyes are too pure to look on evil; you cannot tolerate wrong".

Now then, did God say that?
Can God lie?
Is hell real?

I think that everyone does not believe that God cannot actually see evil. IMO we all know that God sees everything that goes on in the world. From the very beginning, God saw that Adam and had sinned, and He saw when Cain killed His brother Abel, and He saw when the people on the earth became so wicked that a flood was going to destroy them all. We could go on and on throughout the Bible to see that God both knows the evil that is going on in the world, and He sees it. God sees every bit of evil in this world.

So to say that God cannot look upon sin is not accurate biblically, and is not what Habakkuk 1:13 teaches. Instead, it seems that what Habakkuk is saying is that God, by not seeming to do anything about evil, appears to be looking upon evil with approval. But we know that God does not look upon evil in approval; He disapproves it.

Look at it this way: To say that God cannot look upon sin or be in the presence of evil is to deny that Jesus was fully God. Did Jesus come to this earth? Of course! Did He ignore sin and keep Himself away from all who were sinners! Far from it! Rather, He sought out the sinners. He hung around the prostitutes and tax collectors. He laid hands on the lepers and showed love to adulterers.

 

[Goatee]

Who was Jesus's saviour? God! God the Father! He raised him from the dead etc etc.

 

[FireDragon76]

In an ideal Catholic Forum this thread could not exist because it is heresy to do anything other than meekly submit oneself to anything and everything the Catholic Church believes and does.

This notion that catholics are just mindless slaves to their church is a vicious and bigoted stereotype straight from the times in the 19th century when the Klan and the Know-Nothings said the same sort of things. Furthermore, it is not born out in actual surveys of catholic attitudes about a variety of social and religious issues.

Every church has their own doctrines that people must submit to, to be a member in good standing. Sometimes they are just not as explicit. At least the Catholic church spells them out.

As a member of a relatively liberal mainline church, I could also point out that this forum has rules that don't necessarily comport with the spirit of my own church, yet I submit to them because they are the rules. Submission is not necessarily a sign of weakness.

 

[Phil 1:21]

A question for you: will God be in the presence of sin?

Luke 5:27-32

27 After this he went out and saw a tax collector named Levi, sitting at the tax booth. And he said to him, “Follow me.” 28 And leaving everything, he rose and followed him.

29 And Levi made him a great feast in his house, and there was a large company of tax collectors and others reclining at table with them. 30 And the Pharisees and their scribes grumbled at his disciples, saying, “Why do you eat and drink with tax collectors and sinners?” 31 And Jesus answered them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous but sinners to repentance.”