13 Reasons not to pray through Virgin Mary

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Major1

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Does ANY denomination reject the book of Hebrews as YHWH'S WORD ?
Specifically as seen in this current thread/ posters:
Hebrews 3:13
KJ21
But exhort one another daily, while it is still called “today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
ASV
but exhort one another day by day, so long as it is called To-day; lest any one of you be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin:
AMP
But continually encourage one another every day, as long as it is called “Today” [and there is an opportunity], so that none of you will be hardened [into settled rebellion] by the deceitfulness of sin [its cleverness, delusive glamour, and sophistication].

The answer is YES. The Catholic church has always questioned Hebrews.
 
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Major1

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It's deeply personal, and there is no good way to answer. Like asking "Do you still beat your wife?" We ultimately look to the Cross, not our own spiritual experiences, to find assurance.



Why would I want to threaten your faith with doubt in the promises of Christ?



Neither am I. We just have different understandings of what that means.

Honestly, I think that if you spent a little more time in the Bible and less time on your computer you just might see differently.
 
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ViaCrucis

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Water Baptism in the Scriptures my friend is an act of obedience

Offer Scripture in support of that position.

and is not required for salvation.

"Required" is your word, not mine. Scripture however does say, explicitly and unambiguously, that baptism is salvific, 1 Peter 3:21.

Allow me to ask you a question. If you and I went to a hospital and there we shared the gospel with a man who was lost and through the grace of God and the conviction of the Holy Spirit that man accepted Jesus and was saved.

No one accepts Jesus. Salvation is by grace alone through faith, which is the gift of God, not of ourselves, not by our works (Ephesians 2:8-9). But that issue aside, let's continue with the scenario:

Now later night as we were filling the swimming pool with water, he in fact died. Did he go to heaven or or not?

The Church already has a term for this: Baptism of desire. Which is why the Christian Church, historically, understands that Baptism is not "required" for salvation, but it is nevertheless the normative means through which a person becomes a Christian on account of what Scripture unambiguously teaches on the matter. So yes, should a person die before receiving Holy Baptism they will not be rejected by God:

Because Baptism isn't a matter of Law, but Gospel. And since salvation is a matter of God's grace, then it isn't about us checking off a list of things "required" for salvation; it is instead about the means by which God appropriates the salvation which is in Christ to us, which is through Word and Sacrament. Since Baptism is not a work of law or obedience, but an act of grace through which Christ "cleanses [us] with the washing of water by the word" (Ephesians 5:26) then the issue is not us accomplishing a thing, but rather confessing where God promises to act and confessing the grace and trustworthiness of God and His promises which are for us.

Because the one who hears the Gospel and believes has, indeed, true faith, we are therefore confident that God, in keeping His word to us, is faithful and true: That faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ (Romans 10:17), and whoever believes on the Lord Jesus shall be saved (Acts 16:31, Romans 10:13)--but again, this is not of ourselves, this is the grace of God by which He grants us faith.

The fundamental problem here is wanting to turn salvation into a formula which one must get their i's dotted and t's crossed. That's not what salvation is; salvation is the good and gracious God rescuing the world through His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord. Taking hold of us sinners, adopting us as children, making us heirs, and declaring us His own both now and on the Future Day.

By speaking of "requirements" that's what one does, one turns salvation into a formula of human efforts and works, instead of the gracious activity of God rescuing us through the sufficient work of Jesus. The preaching of the Gospel, the administration of the Sacraments are not "requirements" which check the right boxes, they are the gracious means God uses to appropriate to us the gracious and saving work of God in Jesus for us. This is my chief problem with Evangelicalism and modern Protestantism on the whole; it uses the language of salvation by grace, but denies it by turning salvation by grace through faith into a salvation of human efforts and works by denying the all-sufficiency of God's mercy and love in Christ for us into a systematic salvation of human efforts. In this modern Protestantism has denied the central dogma of the Reformation: That salvation is by grace alone through faith on Christ's account alone, entirely apart from ourselves, it is God's work alone.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Cat Loaf You

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Honestly, I think that if you spent a little more time in the Bible and less time on your computer you just might see differently.

People say you can read whole bible in 72 hours or you could skip OT and read only NT but cat videos are too strong on youtube to overcome for most people ( myself included ).
 
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ViaCrucis

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I do not like to argue with anyone but my dear friend, if asking someone if they are going to heaven is not Christianity in action, what in the world is it??????

Emotional and psychological manipulation under the thin guise of religion.

Christ didn't teach us to manipulate people into adopting our beliefs, He commissioned His Church to preach the Gospel and administer His Sacraments, "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit, teaching them all which I have told you." "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and in His name repentance and forgiveness of sins will be proclaimed to all nations, beginning in Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things"

-CryptoLutheran
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Isn't manipulation quite common, and performed by non-Christians to gain control over others for profit , power , or numbers whenever they can get away with it ?

To claim a Christian is performing manipulation might then be a self-defensive mechanism and not a true appraisal of what is happening.
 
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ViaCrucis

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YAHWEH

Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

John 14:9
Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?

If Jesus is God, then God was born and has a mother, her name is Mary. Mary conceived and gave birth to Jesus Christ, our God.

"The Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only-begotten Son of the Father, full of grace and truth." (John 1:14)

"But when the time had fully come, God sent His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, to redeem those under the Law that we might receive adoption as sons." (Galatians 4:4-5)

"Have this same mind be in you that was in Christ Jesus, who, though He was in the formo f God, did not regard equality with God as something to be exploited, but emptied Himself, taking the form of a slave, being born in human likeness. And being found in human form, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death--even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:5-8)

God became man.
God became a Child, born of Mary.
His name is Jesus Christ, our Lord and our God.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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Benaiahian Monk

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Faith should be strong , concrete.
Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel, For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.
Ephesians 6:14-20 - Bible Gateway passage: Ephesians 6:14-20 - King James Version
 
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Phil 1:21

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As written in Scripture, OPEN Rebuke is Better than hidden love - Proverbs over and over again point out how badly we all should WELCOME tests and criticism, as every wise person does, and not ignore it nor reject it.
Perhaps some folks have confused scripture with one of those safe spaces with Bubbles and therapy puppies. Scripture isn’t for the itching ears.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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Perhaps some folks have confused scripture with one of those safe spaces with Bubbles and therapy puppies. Scripture isn’t for the itching ears.
Everywhere the SAVIOR JESUS went , He HEALED PEOPLE and cast out demons.
Everywhere the SAVIOR JESUS sent His disciples , THEY HEALED PEOPLE and cast out demons.

You're right - not for itching ears, (though they can be healed!),
and not safe spaces with Bubbles.
(though yes, green pastures, still waters and always with righteousness (daily), peace (all the time), and joy (continual) no matter the circumstances of life).
 
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Ancient of Days

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46 While he yet talked to the people, behold, his mother and his brethren stood without, desiring to speak with him.

47 Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.

48 But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?

49 And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!

Jesus loved Mary as he loves us but gave no special treatment to her. Neither should we. After all when is the Kings mother greater than the king? We need to worship God through the blood of Christ. God and Christ are one.
 
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MournfulWatcher

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FACTS:

  1. Many Bible commands to praise and glorify the Lord. None to praise or glorify Mary. The early Church in Acts or other NT churches did not worship Mary.
  2. Mary did not die for my sins, Jesus Christ deserves ALL the honor, glory and thanks for doing this for me!
  3. Many OT predictions about Jesus the Christ Coming. Only one OT prophecy to my knowledge refers to Mary. The "virgin," is prophesied in Isaiah 7.14, but Immanuel is the primary focus in my view.
  4. NT books endlessly focus on Jesus, the Son of God. Mary is not mentioned over 1-2 times after Jesus' resurrection event. She just "disappears" after her wonderful mother task has been completed.
  5. Nowhere in the Bible is she referred to as the "mother of God' or "Queen of heaven."
  6. Mary desired a Savior. She evidently saw herself as a sinner as I am. From the Magnificat: " and my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Savior" (Luke 1.47).
  7. Mary magnified the Lord. (Luke 1.46). No one in the Bible prays through or worships Mary.
  8. Nowhere in the Bible is Mary referred to God, member of the God head, Co-creator as Jesus is, co-redeemer, deity, eternal, avenue of prayer, means of grace or connected to salvation.
  9. Mary is not God or deity. To worship human beings is idolatry.
  10. Mary was just one of many virgins in her day. That's wonderful but not cause to worship her or any other human being.
  11. Holy Scripture nowhere commands readers to pray through or to, Mary. Nowhere is there a biblical example of this.
  12. Any man made traditions or opinions which undermine the centrality of Jesus Christ's Person and work are not biblical doctrine.
  13. Mary was a godly girl who was greatly favored by God--used to bear the incarnate Son of God---a unique, incredible honor in a likely tough, stressful situation as not all understood how she got pregnant.

In the hopes of pulling this thread back on topic, I think before you can say any of this as an argument against praying through Mary, you need to come up with an argument that what Catholics are doing is actually worshiping Mary, because they don't view it like that. I've personally been considering the whole praying through Mary arguments, and simply can't find any scriptural basis for it. I would love to hear why Catholics believe so firmly in this practice, if any Catholics on this thread would like to enlighten me.
 
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Fidelibus

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Jesus loved Mary as he loves us but gave no special treatment to her. Neither should we. After all when is the Kings mother greater than the king? We need to worship God through the blood of Christ. God and Christ are one.




“Never be afraid of loving the Blessed Virgin Mary too much. You can never love her more than Jesus did.” -Saint Maximilian Mary Kolbe
 
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FireDragon76

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Most Christians don't ask "Do you know where you'll go if you died tonight?" because that isn't a Christian question. It may be normal in your tradition, but it's deeply offensive to Christians who don't believe in using emotionally and psychologically manipulative proselytizing tactics. Instead we believe in preaching the Gospel, declaring what God has done through Christ. Faith does not come by threat and fear of death and hellfire, but by precious word of the Holy Gospel (Romans 10:17).

-CryptoLutheran

I listened to an old-time Lutheran preacher years ago on Youtube, taken from an old Lutheran Hour broadcast, and it was amazing how he never had to use the cliche, "Friend, do you know where you'ld go if you died tonight?". In fact, I don't ever recall him talking about Hell once. He just preached Law and Gospel, without any tricks. His message was simple: human life is incomplete, but Jesus has accomplished everything that needs to be done for our salvation.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I'll respond to a few points I think are particularly important.

"2. Mary did not die for my sins, Jesus Christ deserves ALL the honor, glory and thanks for doing this for me!"

While Christ did provide us with salvation exclusively that salvation would not have been given to us had he not taken on our mortal nature from his Mother. In this sense we honour the virgin as being the one who bore our salvation into the world. You could argue that Mary was not unique and any woman would have sufficed, but God chose Mary and thus we honour God's choice by reverencing the Mother of our God.

"5.Nowhere in the Bible is she referred to as the "mother of God' or "Queen of heaven."

If Mary is not the Mother of God then Jesus is not the God man who united heaven and earth in his incarnation, being the one Jesus with two natures. The word Trinity is not in the bible either yet none within Christendom dispute it (non Trinitarians are not Christian).

"8.Nowhere in the Bible is Mary referred to God, member of the God head, Co-creator as Jesus is, co-redeemer, deity, eternal, avenue of prayer, means of grace or connected to salvation."

In relation to the bold, who is this addressed to? It cannot be addressed to Orthodox or Catholics since those are not our beliefs concerning the Holy Mother.
 
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Cat Loaf You

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Mary had other children aswell let's not forget that . She was not virgin after she gave birth to Jesus .

Matthew 13-55-56
55 Is not this the carpenter's son? is not his mother called Mary? and his brethren, James, and Joses, and Simon, and Judas?

56 And his sisters, are they not all with us? Whence then hath this man all these things?
 
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