Atheism is amoral

[Freodin]

Nobody is laughing at you. I certainly do not treat anyone with disrespect.

I will admit that a conversation here is a little different from a conversation eye to eye. You don't make it easier for us by choosing not to quote the post you respond to.

Still, I'd like to remind you of the post that caused my to chime in to this conversation.
In this post (#615), you made the statement:
"But just compare my experience with those who have no belief in God. Such people are lost."
I responded to that challenge by talking about my experiences with the death of my brother and mother.

Your reaction to that was "LOL!", and then telling me / us atheists that we "have been warned". You deliberatly chose to Laugh Out Loud at a post talking about the loss of a whole family, dismissing it, turning to threats... and you want to tell me that this isn't disrespectful?

You have a very weird understanding of respect.

God wants us to love one another. Yes it is a command, the greatest and best of all.
You look at things in a most peculiar light may i say! Christians are all about loving their fellow man and God. Thanking God for sacrificing his only son for us. Despite the fact we are all sinful wretches who deserve nothing at all! Certainly i am a wretch.

I might even say that you have NO understanding of respect.

Again, you talk about "loving their fellow man". And what do you do then? You start talking about being thankful to God and how bad we all are.

Don't you think that your reaction to my post detailing a situation that deeply griefed me might have hurt me? Did it ever cross your mind that you asked for a comparing of experiences... and then, when someone did, you dismissed it instantly?

Is this love? Is this respect?

 

[Dave-W]

That isn't a good argument for atheism being immoral.

*Amoral

Not that many people are aware of the difference.

 

[Par5]

*Amoral

OK, but HenryM obviously believes atheists are immoral, he said as much.
"It's obvious that there's no place for true morality within atheism."

 

[Dave-W]

OK, but HenryM obviously believes atheists are immoral, he said as much.
"It's obvious that there's no place for true morality within atheism."

That is amorailty - without a moral framework; rather than immorality - breaking a known moral framework.

 

[Grace2022]

I will admit that a conversation here is a little different from a conversation eye to eye. You don't make it easier for us by choosing not to quote the post you respond to.

Still, I'd like to remind you of the post that caused my to chime in to this conversation.
In this post (#615), you made the statement:
"But just compare my experience with those who have no belief in God. Such people are lost."
I responded to that challenge by talking about my experiences with the death of my brother and mother.

Your reaction to that was "LOL!", and then telling me / us atheists that we "have been warned". You deliberatly chose to Laugh Out Loud at a post talking about the loss of a whole family, dismissing it, turning to threats... and you want to tell me that this isn't disrespectful?

You have a very weird understanding of respect.


I might even say that you have NO understanding of respect.

Again, you talk about "loving their fellow man". And what do you do then? You start talking about being thankful to God and how bad we all are.

Don't you think that your reaction to my post detailing a situation that deeply griefed me might have hurt me? Did it ever cross your mind that you asked for a comparing of experiences... and then, when someone did, you dismissed it instantly?

Is this love? Is this respect?

Hi
On a bit of a tangent do try watching the documentary series Jesus the Game Changer. You will be surprised to learn that the health and education services we all depend upon were all begun and developed by christian missionary groups and individuals. Jesus is in your life whether you acknowledge it or not.

 

[bhsmte]

Hi
On a bit of a tangent do try watching the documentary series Jesus the Game Changer. You will be surprised to learn that the health and education services we all depend upon were all begun and developed by christian missionary groups and individuals. Jesus is in your life whether you acknowledge it or not.

You just cant help yourself, can you?

 

[Grace2022]

Nope.
You are quick off the mark. Have you got nothing better to do? Ha ha!

 

[bhsmte]

Irony

 

[Freodin]

Hi
On a bit of a tangent do try watching the documentary series Jesus the Game Changer. You will be surprised to learn that the health and education services we all depend upon were all begun and developed by christian missionary groups and individuals. Jesus is in your life whether you acknowledge it or not.

I'd rather stay on point. I second what bhsmte said: you really can't help yourself, can you?

You talk about the love that you - you personally - are commanded to show others. But you don't, and when you are called out on that... instead of taking responsibility for your own actions and start showing some love and respect, you ignore everything that was said and go of a "tangent".

I am telling you, right now, that for me personally your behaviour here is rather offensive, insulting and hurtful. What are you going to do about that?

 

[ToddNotTodd]

I'd rather stay on point. I second what bhsmte said: you really can't help yourself, can you?

You talk about the love that you - you personally - are commanded to show others. But you don't, and when you are called out on that... instead of taking responsibility for your own actions and start showing some love and respect, you ignore everything that was said and go of a "tangent".

I am telling you, right now, that for me personally your behaviour here is rather offensive, insulting and hurtful. What are you going to do about that?

It’s not just you...

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

Of course it's amoral, when you think about it. That doesn't mean that individual atheist is amoral. But he or she is moral for reason outside of atheism, not because of atheism.

Atheism is amoral because it's a worldview that everything including life came from nothing, by chance, and that it will all ultimately end in nothing.

So it's nothingness at the beggining and end, and in between is chance. That's the highest principle that sets up atheistic existence.

It's obvious that there's no place for true morality within atheism.

But there is place for hedonism. What seems like morality withinin atheism is just a form of hedonism.

It's "whatever rocks my boat" attitude. There can't be morally good or bad if existence is set up by chance, from nothingness, going into nothingness. But there can be pleasure.

In atheistic worldview, one person can think that peace is good and war is bad. But that's just his or her private hedonism. Other person can think that murder is great, and that's equally fine, since everything came from nothing, is governed by chance, and ultimately goes back into nothing. Both opinions are perfectly in line with foundation of atheistic existence.

So, if hundred people group together and make a weapon that ends up killing everybody on earth, that's neither good or bad within atheistic worldview. That was just an event that was ultimately governed by chance.

Yes, that event is subjectively bad for murdered people who can't exercise their hedonism anymore, but that principle - to exercise own hedonism - is far, far below principles of coming from and ending in nothingness, by chance. Probably even infinitely below those foundational principles.

Bill Gates is an agnostic/atheist. He has donated billions of dollars to his charity called the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Countless people from poor countries have benefited from Gates’ generosity.

If atheists were as awful as you describe, why has Bill Gates given so much money to alleviating the suffering of people in developing nations? Your thesis is nonsense.

One reason why some atheists don’t convert to Christianity is because many Christians are hostile towards them. Castigating atheists like you did is no way to win souls for Jesus.

 

[Grace2022]

I agree totally with HenryM. Every word.

As for Bill Gates, no amount of giving to charity could lead to saving his soul if he rejects Christ. We cannot ever do enough to please God through good works. That is impossible as we are flawed and sinful by nature. Only by faith and acceptance of Jesus Christ can we have eternal life in Gods heavenly kingdom.
In my opinion. I am a christian, that is my view. My allegiance is with my brothers and sisters in Christ. Join us if you wish. Entirely your choice. We all have free will and are entitled to go our own path. God will never force himself into your heart because that door is locked from the inside.

Mock all you want atheists. It does not matter to me one bit.

 

[Dave-W]

Of course it's amoral, when you think about it. That doesn't mean that individual atheist is amoral. But he or she is moral for reason outside of atheism, not because of atheism.

Do you mean amoral or immoral?

 

[Freodin]

Bill Gates is an agnostic/atheist. He has donated billions of dollars to his charity called the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation. Countless people from poor countries have benefited from Gates’ generosity.

If atheists were as awful as you describe, why has Bill Gates given so much money to alleviating the suffering of people in developing nations? Your thesis is nonsense.

Thank you.
Some people here have already pointed out the difference between "amoral" and "immoral", and there is the whole discussion about the nature of morality at all.

But there are too many believers that simply take that as "atheists are awful people"... and it is always great to find someone who has a more differentiated view.

One reason why some atheists don’t convert to Christianity is because many Christians are hostile towards them. Castigating atheists like you did is no way to win souls for Jesus.

Here, though, I think you just repeated a common Christian myth. The hostility of some/many Christians toward non-Christians and atheists may be a secondary reason for some not to consider Christianity valid... because it casts further doubt on Christianity's claim to "love your neighbor"... but ultimately it is this "doubt" - unbelief, disbelief - in the claims of Christianiyt that keeps atheists from "converting".

If they believed in any way - and every single other Christian in the world would be hostile to them - they would just form another branch of Christianity.

 

[Par5]

I agree totally with HenryM. Every word.

As for Bill Gates, no amount of giving to charity could lead to saving his soul if he rejects Christ. We cannot ever do enough to please God through good works. That is impossible as we are flawed and sinful by nature. Only by faith and acceptance of Jesus Christ can we have eternal life in Gods heavenly kingdom.
In my opinion. I am a christian, that is my view. My allegiance is with my brothers and sisters in Christ. Join us if you wish. Entirely your choice. We all have free will and are entitled to go our own path. God will never force himself into your heart because that door is locked from the inside.

Mock all you want atheists. It does not matter to me one bit.

I didn't actually notice anyone mocking. Giving their opinion, yes, but mocking, no.
Perhaps you would like to point out all this mockery I missed, or is it really just a case of you making things up about people who disagree with you?

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

Thank you.
Some people here have already pointed out the difference between "amoral" and "immoral", and there is the whole discussion about the nature of morality at all.

But there are too many believers that simply take that as "atheists are awful people"... and it is always great to find someone who has a more differentiated view.


Here, though, I think you just repeated a common Christian myth. The hostility of some/many Christians toward non-Christians and atheists may be a secondary reason for some not to consider Christianity valid... because it casts further doubt on Christianity's claim to "love your neighbor"... but ultimately it is this "doubt" - unbelief, disbelief - in the claims of Christianiyt that keeps atheists from "converting".

If they believed in any way - and every single other Christian in the world would be hostile to them - they would just form another branch of Christianity.

I’m a former atheist, so I understand how a nonbeliever feels when he hears Christians say that you can’t be good or moral without God.

Here is how I would explain it to a Christian: Imagine everyone you know—friends, family, co-workers, etc.—believes in Bigfoot, and they continually insist in their heart of hearts that he is real. But you know he is just a tale from folklore. You think it’s ridiculous how so many people believe in Bigfoot and think you’re one of the few rational people around for not believing in silly myths. Then you hear a one of these believers tell you that it isn’t possible to be a good, moral person without recognizing that Bigfoot is “real.” You feel surprised and slightly insulted. After all, you donate to charity, act kindly toward others, and feel like you have good character. Why on earth would someone imply that you’re a bad person for not believing in Bigfoot? It’s ridiculous.

This sums out how an atheist feels when he hears Christians say that you can’t be good without belief in God. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don’t put things in perspective and try to understand how atheists feel on the subject.

Yes, it’s possible to be a good and moral if you’re not a believer. In fact, there are many good agnostic/atheists out there like Bill Gates. But I will add that faith in Christ and successfully imitating the humble, loving life of Jesus does improve morality.

 

[bhsmte]

I agree totally with HenryM. Every word.

As for Bill Gates, no amount of giving to charity could lead to saving his soul if he rejects Christ. We cannot ever do enough to please God through good works. That is impossible as we are flawed and sinful by nature. Only by faith and acceptance of Jesus Christ can we have eternal life in Gods heavenly kingdom.
In my opinion. I am a christian, that is my view. My allegiance is with my brothers and sisters in Christ. Join us if you wish. Entirely your choice. We all have free will and are entitled to go our own path. God will never force himself into your heart because that door is locked from the inside.

Mock all you want atheists. It does not matter to me one bit.

Any theology, that grants eternal life to the serial killer who finds Jesus in prison and condemns the non christian, who lives a life of helping others, is a morally bankrupt theology.

 

[bhsmte]

I’m a former atheist, so I understand how a nonbeliever feels when he hears Christians say that you can’t be good or moral without God.

Here is how I would explain it to a Christian: Imagine everyone you know—friends, family, co-workers, etc.—believes in Bigfoot, and they continually insist in their heart of hearts that he is real. But you know he is just a tale from folklore. You think it’s ridiculous how so many people believe in Bigfoot and think you’re one of the few rational people around for not believing in silly myths. Then you hear a one of these believers tell you that it isn’t possible to be a good, moral person without recognizing that Bigfoot is “real.” You feel surprised and slightly insulted. After all, you donate to charity, act kindly toward others, and feel like you have good character. Why on earth would someone imply that you’re a bad person for not believing in Bigfoot? It’s ridiculous.

This sums out how an atheist feels when he hears Christians say that you can’t be good without belief in God. Unfortunately, a lot of Christians don’t put things in perspective and try to understand how atheists feel on the subject.

Yes, it’s possible to be a good and moral if you’re not a believer. In fact, there are many good agnostic/atheists out there like Bill Gates. But I will add that faith in Christ and successfully imitating the humble, loving life of Jesus does improve morality.

Your last sentence may be true for you, but what you can't do, is claim it applies to others.

I always say, if a certain theology helps a person cope with life, makes them a better person, in the sense they treat others with respect and don't have a need to criticize others simply because they disagree with their theology, is someone who should hold onto their beliefs.

At least on this forum, there are a number of Christians, who simply appear threatened, simply because everyone doesn't agree with them and they have this need to demonize those who disagree. This tells me everything I need to know, about that person who needs to judge in that fashion.

 

[compassion 4 humanity]

At least on this forum, there are a number of Christians, who simply appear threatened, simply because everyone doesn't agree with them and they have this need to demonize those who disagree. This tells me everything I need to know, about that person who needs to judge in that fashion.

Don’t let the negative comments from Christians make you feel alienated from faith. Christianity is perfect; its adherents are far from it.

 

[bhsmte]

Don’t let the negative comments from Christians make you feel alienated from faith. Christianity is perfect; its adherents are far from it.

My not being a Christian, has zero to do with Christians. I don't base my judgement, on what other people think or do, that is not how I role.

I was a Christian for most of my life and as I learned over the years, I simply could not reconcile the story, with well evidenced reality any longer and pretend to believe something. I fully understand why many people find religion appealing though and if it works for them, that is great, as long as they respect others who don't agree with them. When it comes to Christians, they should remember, 2/3 of the worlds population disagree with them and those people are not their enemy, nor do they keep Christians from practicing their own religious beliefs.