Who did Jesus die for?

[Mountainmanbob]

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

The Bible States blessed are the preachers.

For example ? (where)

For faith comes by hearing of the Word.

...... sure does..... yet almost no one has faith even to heal the sick or to give up their sin or to take the homeless in ...... so what /Who sent the famine not of food and water, but the famine of the hearing of the Word of God ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

• 
  Optimistic x 1 ??
• List (private)
• If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, .... .... .... (rare today, but still God's Promise, and always true, as Jesus plainly states.)

 

[Neal of Zebulun]

• 
  Optimistic x 1 ??
• List (private)
• If you have faith as a grain of mustard seed, .... .... .... (rare today, but still God's Promise, and always true, as Jesus plainly states.)

I'm optimistic that He'll find faith when He comes back, even if it's smaller than a mustard seed

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I'm optimistic that He'll find faith when He comes back, even if it's smaller than a mustard seed

For the sake of the Gospel, and the Plan , Yahweh's Plan for you, do not wait.

Faith is always and simply a GIFT, SHEER GRACE, from YAHWEH. so ask Him.

That's your repsonsibility, to ask. Just once is enough. Then relax, the work of
Jesus' Faithfulness is perfect, and it is Yahweh's (God's) work as He Pleases to grant someone faith in Him. Sheer Grace, A GIFT.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Romans 10:14-15 “How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”

 

[Doug Melven]

Romans 10:14-15 “How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”

10:15b and bring glad tidings of good things!
10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

So God sends a preacher, the preacher preaches the Word of God (Which is a seed) to those who have previously not heard. Then faith comes by hearing the Word of God.

13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Jesus sows the Word through His preachers, and different things happen depending upon the types of ground that the seed falls on.
Some the devil snatches away, some receive the Word gladly, but do not persist due to tribulation, sometimes the Word is choked because of the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches, and some bear fruit.
But the seed (Word of God) works in everybody no matter what type of ground they are.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

But the seed (Word of God) works in everybody no matter what type of ground they are.

I was right with you until I got to the part above.
M-Bob

 

[Doug Melven]

I was right with you until I got to the part above.
M-Bob

What is wrong with that statement?
The seed worked in rocky ground, but was rejected.
The seed worked in the thorns but was choked.
The good ground refers to those who hear the Word of God and understands it.

But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

You can read the whole thing for yourself in Matthew 13 or Mark 4.

The Holy Spirit worked in the Pharisees who stoned Stephen.
Acts 7:51 You always resist the Holy Ghost.

 

[Skala]

Jesus died for sinners. All of them.
Matthew 9:13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.
Matthew 20:28 Even as the Son of man came not to be ministered unto, but to minister, and to give his life a ransom for many.
Romans 5:19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
We see from these verses that many were made sinners. Not everybody was made a sinner.
I always thought everybody was a sinner, but this verse says otherwise.
And Jesus came for sinners, and He gave His life a ransom for many. He would not have needed to die for people who weren't affected by Adam's sin. So He died for the many who were affected by Adam's sin.

Gotta be honest, I laughed out loud when you argued that Jesus died for "all" sinners, then proceeded to quote verses (and bold) that had the word "many"

As for your argument, I think a proper understanding of the verse is this:

"the many" in both parts of Paul's argument is determined by the context.

Adam represents all of humanity. So the "many" that Adam's fall affected was the entire human race.

But Christ doesn't represent all of humanity - he's only the Federal Head of those who put their faith in him. So "the many" that Christ's work affects is not the entire human race, but only believers.

I think you may be misinterpreting the verse/Paul's argument if you think the phrase "the many were made sinners", Paul is trying to teach that some people aren't sinners because only "many" (and not all) are "made sinners"

Rather, Paul is simply comparing what Adam did, and who it affected, with what Christ did, and who it affected. The whole argument is about the concept of federal headship.

Christ is the "second Adam" and both "Adams" represent people: Adam the entire human race, and Christ, believers.

If you read the whole passage (verse 12 through 21) this becomes more clear.

Blessings.

(Ps, verse 12 outright contradicts your argument from the start. It plainly says "death spread to all men because all sinned" This is the exact opposite of what you posited when you said "I thought everyone was a sinner, but this verse says otherwise". So either you are misunderstanding the Bible or the Apostle Paul contradicted himself within a span of 7 verses)

 

[Doug Melven]

Gotta be honest, I laughed out loud when you argued that Jesus died for "all" sinners, then proceeded to quote verses (and bold) that had the word "many"

As for your argument, I think a proper understanding of the verse is this:

"the many" in both parts of Paul's argument is determined by the context.

Adam represents all of humanity. So the "many" that Adam's fall affected was the entire human race.

But Christ doesn't represent all of humanity - he's only the Federal Head of those who put their faith in him. So "the many" that Christ's work affects is not the entire human race, but only believers.

I think you may be misinterpreting the verse/Paul's argument if you think the phrase "the many were made sinners", Paul is trying to teach that some people aren't sinners because only "many" (and not all) are "made sinners"

Rather, Paul is simply comparing what Adam did, and who it affected, with what Christ did, and who it affected. The whole argument is about the concept of federal headship.

Christ is the "second Adam" and both "Adams" represent people: Adam the entire human race, and Christ, believers.

If you read the whole passage (verse 12 through 21) this becomes more clear.

Blessings.

(Ps, verse 12 outright contradicts your argument from the start. It plainly says "death spread to all men because all sinned" This is the exact opposite of what you posited when you said "I thought everyone was a sinner, but this verse says otherwise". So either you are misunderstanding the Bible or the Apostle Paul contradicted himself within a span of 7 verses)

Actually what I did was use the same exact argument that you guys use to say that Jesus didn't die for everybody in citing Romans 5:19. The word "many" is the same word used in the verses that say He died for many. G4183

So what we are seeing here is if Jesus didn't die for everyone because we see the word "many", then not everybody was made a sinner by Adam because the word used is many in Romans 5:19. G4183

 

[Mountainmanbob]

It would not make sense that He died for the ones that will end up in hell.

M-Bob

 

[Doug Melven]

It would not make sense that He died for the ones that will end up in hell.

M-Bob

That is human reasoning.
Even if God's ways don't make sense to our peanut brains doesn't mean they are not true.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

That is human reasoning.
Even if God's ways don't make sense to our peanut brains doesn't mean they are not true.

He came for His sheep that would be His sheep.

That's not human reasoning that's what the Bible states.

M-Bob

 

[Skala]

Actually what I did was use the same exact argument that you guys use to say that Jesus didn't die for everybody in citing Romans 5:19. The word "many" is the same word used in the verses that say He died for many. G4183

So what we are seeing here is if Jesus didn't die for everyone because we see the word "many", then not everybody was made a sinner by Adam because the word used is many in Romans 5:19. G4183

And this is the line of reasoning I refuted in my post. Check it out and let me know what you think.

The word "many" just means "a bunch of people". It doesn't necessarily mean "not 100%". Nor does it necessarily mean "100%".

It depends on the context.

Adam's fall affected many = in this case "many" refers to the entire human race
Christ's death, burial and resurrection affected many = in this case it refers to believers only. Only believers get benefit from Christ's work

So in both sentences, the word "many" addresses a different scope/group of people. The word is flexible that way.

Paul's entire argument is about the concept of Federal Headship. He's saying Adam represents all who are "In him" (the entire human race), and Christ represents all who are "In him" (only believers). In both cases, it is "many" people.

The way a person gets "in" Adam is to be born into the human race, as Adam is the Federal Head of the whole human race.

The way a per son gets "in" Christ is to believe in Him, as Christ is the Federal head of believers/the church/his bride/etc.

Get it?

 

[Doug Melven]

Christ's death, burial and resurrection affected many = in this case it refers to believers only.

How do you come to this conclusion?
Why isn't it the same many as in Romans 5:19?

 

[Skala]

Because verse 12 says "death spread to all men because all sinned" <--this is referring to what Adam did that affected everyone he represents.

And then verse 16 says "the free gift is not the result of that one man's sin (Adam's)..but the free gift brought justification." And the Apostle Paul spent two nearly whole chapters before chapter 5 in this same letter (Romans) arguing that justification is by faith alone.

And verse 17 summarizes his argument in a single sentence:
For if, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ.

In short it's two groups of people. Though there is some overlap because all of the people in group #2 (Christ's) used to be in group #1 (Adam's), but not everyone in Adam's group is in Christ's group (ie, not all humans are saved)

Anyways, this is my understanding but am certainly open to more discussion and hearing other views/exegesis.

 

[Doug Melven]

The Greek word "polos" G4183 can be translated many ways.
And you are right it depends on the context to determine how it is translated.
See this page from The King's Bible.
King James Bible Strongs Numbers

Don't let your doctrine determine the meaning. Let the Word of God determine your doctrine.
What I see with people who say that Jesus did not die for everybody is they take these verses that say Jesus died for many and ignore the verses that say He died for the whole world and they use there doctrine to determine what the Word says.
If there were 100000 people in the world and He died for 100000 people you could say He died for many or you could say He died for all.
So you couldn't just use verses that said He died for many, you would have to compare it with verses like 1 John 2:2 and John 3:16 where both say the world.

 

[bling]

It would not make sense that He died for the ones that will end up in hell.

M-Bob

Christ did die for those that go to hell and that is a very good reason for them to go to hell, because they refused to accept the ransom He offered them in His allowing others to torture, humiliate and murder Him.

 

[Mountainmanbob]

Christ did die for those that go to hell and that is a very good reason for them to go to hell, because they refused to accept the ransom He offered them in His allowing others to torture, humiliate and murder Him.

Can you show one Bible verse that states Jesus died for those one's going to hell? If not you should not put words into His mouth.

M-Bob