Was Jesus Himself an Actual "Feminist" in a way? Yes or no?

[ToBeLoved]

That might be the least of anyone's concerns, since spiritual victory, spiritual life, is so rare. Carnal anything doesn't change that.
A much bigger trap most people are in.

Jesus never stopped talking about the spiritual. I’m not going to either.

We trap ourselves by fighting fights for carnal and God says we cannot be spiritual and carnal at the same time.

Being carnal does change the spiritual of you can only be one each moment. Each moment we escalate carnal it is a de-escalation of spiritual.

 

[JackRT]

Feminists support abortion.

Not all feminists support abortion just as not all Christians are against abortion. You paint with far too broad a brush.

 

[RDKirk]

Actually I would not call that feminism at all. It is egalitarianism.

True feminism wants to delete male humans from existence.

Well, third- and subsequent-wave feminism, anyway. I guess that's what "true" feminists today are, because the "true" feminists today are repudiating the first- and second-wave feminists.

 

[RDKirk]

Except there also seems to be a lot of push-back against feminism/equality as a result of that (in certain groups). More than ten years ago, I don't really recall this ever even being a topic of discussion.....now it's quite common.

The push back now is a recognition that the current feminist wave is actually anti-male rather than egalitarian.

 

[Almost there]

The problem with the OP is that there are as many definitions of the word, "feminist", as there are people that have ever heard the word.

So, my answer is no.

 

[S.O.J.I.A.]

how are we defining "feminist" in this thread?

 

[RDKirk]

There is the sense He does promote it through Godly women like you, taking on radical feminists, maintaining roles, defending life. However because the term "feminist" more commonly brings with it certain meanings to modern minds, I do not know how helpful it is to think of Jesus as a feminist...I tend to think of Him more as the Savior of children, women, and men. I suppose what I mean is Jesus is so much greater than just a feminist in the sense you've described that emphasizing that has limited benefit to the Church as a whole, but I think it can and should have a place, men and women need to hear both sides of the issue.

This is like, for me as a black man, the "Black Lives Matter" movement. I am certainly on board with what the sentiment originally meant when we first heard of it, but I'm also aware that many white people automatically "hear" it differently as a matter of their own perspective (fed by other sources), and as well, the dominating spokespeople of the movement proved to have broader and less acceptable intentions. Ultimately, it simply wasn't worth it to continually attempt to rehabilitate the phrase itself "Black Lives Matter"--better to simply state what I mean outright rather than trying to rehabilitate a phrase someone else is running in the wrong direction.

The same is true for "feminism." Rather than trying to say, "what I mean by 'feminism'..." it's better to understand that what was on Jesus' mind is not what's on the mind of people who are now running with the term "feminism." The term is not useful for Christians.

"...there is neither male nor female in Christ."

That is the principle of Christ on the issue. It's not in scripture for nothing, it's given as direction for the Church to take for action, now, not "in the great By And By." The Church does, indeed, need to give consideration to how we can make it work in the environment of the world.

 

[redleghunter]

The historical Jesus seems to have been gender blind. Paul was too but by the time the Pastoral Epistles were written almost a century later patriarchy was back firm control. Recent events mark another step in the eventual demise of that evil institution.

When were the pastoral epistles written?

 

[JackRT]

When were the pastoral epistles written?

John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions. For a brief discussion of each source, including the reasons for its proposed dating, see John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991) Appendix 1, pp. 427-50. All dates shown are C.E. (Common Era).

First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]

1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)

2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)

3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)

4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)

5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)

6. Egerton Gospel (50s)

7. P. Vienna G. 2325 (50s)

8. P. Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)

9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)

10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)

11. Miracles Collection (50s)

12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)

13. Cross Gospel (50s)


Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]

14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)

15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)

16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)

17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)

18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)

19. Dialogue Collection (70s)

20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)

21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)


Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]

22. Gospel of Matthew (90)

23. Gospel of Luke (90s)

24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)

25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)

26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)

27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)

28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)

29. Letter of James (100)

30. Gospel of John I (early second century)

31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)

32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)

33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)

34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)

35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)

36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)

37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)

38. First Letter of Peter (112)

39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)

40. First Letter of John (115)


Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]

41. Gospel of John II (after 120)

42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)

43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)

44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)

45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)

46. Letter to Titus (after 120)

47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)

48. Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, 112 (140)

49. Second Letter of Clement (150)

50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)

51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)

52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)

53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)

 

[ToBeLoved]

John Dominic Crossan has provided a detailed classification of our sources for the historical Jesus according to the chronological stratification of the traditions. For a brief discussion of each source, including the reasons for its proposed dating, see John Dominic Crossan, The Historical Jesus (HarperCollins, 1991) Appendix 1, pp. 427-50. All dates shown are C.E. (Common Era).

First Stratum [30 to 60 C.E.]

1. First Letter of Paul to the Thessalonians (late 40s)

2. Letter of Paul to the Galatians (winter of 52/53)

3. First Letter of Paul to the Corinthians (winter of 53/54.)

4. Letter of Paul to the Romans (winter of 55/56)

5. Gospel of Thomas I (earliest layer of Thomas, composed in 50s)

6. Egerton Gospel (50s)

7. P. Vienna G. 2325 (50s)

8. P. Oxyrhynchus 1224 (50s)

9. Gospel of the Hebrews (Egypt, 50s)

10. Sayings Gospel Q (50s)

11. Miracles Collection (50s)

12. Apocalyptic Scenario (50s)

13. Cross Gospel (50s)


Second Stratum [60 to 80 C.E.]

14. Gospel of the Egyptians (60s)

15. Secret Gospel of Mark (early 70s)

16. Gospel of Mark (late 70s)

17. P. Oxyrhynchus 840 (?80s)

18. Gospel of Thomas II (later layers, 70s)

19. Dialogue Collection (70s)

20. Signs Gospel, or Book of Signs (70s)

21. Letter to the Colossians (70s)


Third Stratum [80 to 120 C.E.]

22. Gospel of Matthew (90)

23. Gospel of Luke (90s)

24. Revelation/Apocalypse of John (late 90s)

25. First Letter of Clement (late 90s)

26. Epistle of Barnabas (end first century)

27. Didache (other than 1:3b2:1, 16:35) (end first century)

28. Shepherd of Hermas (100)

29. Letter of James (100)

30. Gospel of John I (early second century)

31. Letter of Ignatius, To the Ephesians (110)

32. Letter of Ignatius, To the Magnesians (110)

33. Letter of Ignatius, To the Trallians (110)

34. Letter of Ignatius, To the Romans (110)

35. Letter of Ignatius, To the Philadelphians (110)

36. Letter of Ignatius, To the Smyrneans (110)

37. Letter of Ignatius, To Polycarp (110)

38. First Letter of Peter (112)

39. Letter of Polycarp, To the Philippians, 1314 (115)

40. First Letter of John (115)


Fourth Stratum [120 to 150 C.E.]

41. Gospel of John II (after 120)

42. Acts of the Apostles (after 120)

43. Apocryphon of James (before 150)

44. First Letter to Timothy (after 120)

45. Second Letter to Timothy (after 120)

46. Letter to Titus (after 120)

47. Second Letter of Peter (between 125 and 150)

48. Letter of Polycarp to the Philippians, 112 (140)

49. Second Letter of Clement (150)

50. Gospel of the Nazoreans (middle second century)

51. Gospel of the Ebionites (middle second century)

52. Didache, 1:3b2:1 (middle second century)

53. Gospel of Peter (middle second century)

Why are you including non-canon, gnostic texts ? and everything under the sun if he asked about the pastoral epistles?

There are maybe 5 pastoral epistles, tops.

And why the CE date references. So confusing.

How can 1 Timothy be dated at 150?

Seems like you chose the least Biblical way to answer his question.

 

[JackRT]

Why are you including non-canon, gnostic texts ? and everything under the sun if he asked about the pastoral epistles?

There are maybe 5 pastoral epistles, tops.

And why the CE date references. So confusing.

How can 1 Timothy be dated at 150?

Seems like you chose the least Biblical way to answer his question.

I include the complete list because I thought people might be interested in the views of one of the world's leading Bible scholars. In his book, referenced above, he gives detailed reasons for his dating. Compared to other scholars Crossan does seem to go for slightly later dates.

BTW, the Pastoral Epistles are 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I include the complete list because I thought people might be interested in the views of one of the world's leading Bible scholars. In his book, referenced above, he gives detailed reasons for his dating. Compared to other scholars Crossan does seem to go for slightly later dates.

BTW, the Pastoral Epistles are 1 and 2 Timothy and Titus.

So you know exactly the books to refer him to but chose to include practically every other gnostic text or extra Biblical writing with it. Seems you always confuse.

 

[Almost there]

how are we defining "feminist" in this thread?

Good question. I was just going with how I see the word.

 

[JackRT]

So you know exactly the books to refer him to but chose to include practically every other gnostic text or extra Biblical writing with it. Seems you always confuse.

I trust you are capable of ignoring all the other texts and concentrate on the ones of interest to you?

 

[JackRT]

And why the CE date references. So confusing.

Common Era (CE) dating is exactly the same as Anno Domini (AD) dating which is an completely artificial and arbitrary dating system devise by Dionysius Exigius operating under the orders of Pope John I.

 

[Almost there]

Common Era (CE) dating is exactly the same as Anno Domini (AD) dating which is an completely artificial and arbitrary dating system devise by Dionysius Exigius operating under the orders of Pope John I.

IS NOT!

 

[ToBeLoved]

I trust you are capable of ignoring all the other texts and concentrate on the ones of interest to you?

I am. I just don't like to see someone lead someone to false doctrine when they ask for something specific. Like sending wolves in to hang wtih the sheep.

 

[JackRT]

I am. I just don't like to see someone lead someone to false doctrine when they ask for something specific. Like sending wolves in to hang wtih the sheep.

My post had nothing to do with doctrine, false or otherwise.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Common Era (CE) dating is exactly the same as Anno Domini (AD) dating which is an completely artificial and arbitrary dating system devise by Dionysius Exigius operating under the orders of Pope John I.

No it's not. Because the pastoral epistles were written by Paul, who lived during the lifetime of Jesus. Jesus died in 33 AD, so putting 1 Timothy at 150 CE would mean that either Paul is not the author or Paul lived to be somewhere over 140 years old and was writing to Timothy when he was 140 years old.

 

[ToBeLoved]

My post had nothing to do with doctrine, false or otherwise.

What about someone sending wolves in to hang with the sheep?