Trump is in violation of the canons of the Episcopal Church

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You have no right to shame them.

Why do you keep repeating this as if it is in God's Word or Instructions ?

Anyone who sins is treated the same way as Jesus says: repent and be baptised for the remission of sins, and go and sin no more.

How many churches do what is right in regard to greedy landlord in the assembly ?

 

[FireDragon76]

But you don't treat everyone the same, you would discriminate against two gay people that simply want a cake. At the day of judgment, they will testify against you. When they feel ashamed, God will make you feel ashamed, and it will be justice.

Why do you keep repeating this as if it is in God's Word or Instructions ?

The Church of God has spoken, that human dignity is the basis of all religious freedom. There can be no justice without respect for human dignity. If you can't accept that ,then I guess I will heed Jesus advice and this discussion must end.

 

[Phil 1:21]

What does Jesus Himself Say ? (about sin?)

From Genesis to Revelation He repeatedly commands us not to sin. It's really, REALLY fundamental stuff. Jesus' ministry was a perfect (and I mean perfect) illustration of loving the sinner while not accepting, condoning, enabling, or participating in the sin. I suspect of Christ became flesh today he would be labeled the ultimate "shamer" by progressive society and more than a few churches supposedly built in His name.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

But you don't treat everyone the same, you would discriminate against two gay people that simply want a cake.

WHO ? Who are you replying to ?
If someone refuses to make a cake that violates their conscience,
would you violate their God given right to do that ?
The same thing you are accusing other of doing, do you think is okay for you ?
Would you violate your own conscience and commit a sin if a police officer told you to do something sinful ?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I suspect of Christ became flesh today he would be labeled the ultimate "shamer" by the progressive society and more than a few churches supposedly built in His name.

GOOD ! You recognize society is evil. That's exactly what Jesus says.

His TWO WITNESSES, whoever they were, whoever they are, whoever they will be,
are hated by the world,
the world PARTIES when they are murdered,
and the world is scared to death (and they deserve death) when God raises them up.

 

[FireDragon76]

There is no God given right to do wrong.

No matter how much our conscience burns, if it is not properly formed, then it is erroneous and I am not bound to respect it.

I am through debating with you, BTW, Jeff... Do yourself a favor and get some counselling. You seem infatuated with dark subject matter and are learning all the wrong things from the Bible. I am blocking you because I do not consider interacting with you fruitful, and you litter these forums with the most inane ramblings and are not interested in sound correction. But, I say this with all sincerity that Jesus loves you more than I ever could, and he asks you to return to the God of mercy.

 

[Phil 1:21]

WHO ? Who are you replying to ?
If someone refuses to make a cake that violates their conscience,
would you violate their God given right to do that ?
The same thing you are accusing other of doing, do you think is okay for you ?
Would you violate your own conscience and commit a sin if a police officer told you to do something sinful ?

When one reduces "sin no more" to "don't get into trouble" they judge the righteousness of the action not by the action itself, but whether or not the person suffered negative consequences as a result. Or, to put it in terms my high school wrestling coach used to use (parochial school no less), "It's only illegal if you get caught."

Scripture knows no such definition of sin. Nowhere in God's word does He tell us to do whatever we want so long as we "don't get into trouble."

 

[FireDragon76]

Phil, we Lutherans in the ELCA do not preach "do whatever you want as long as you don't get caught". I'm sorry if you don't understand that. Our Christian freedom is the freedom to do good for our neighbor. That is the "law" of grace and love, but it is not a legalism as you seem to understand it.

 

[FireDragon76]

God's law always condemns us and kills us. Just because God gives a commandment does not mean we can use it to make us righteous, to make us alive. Only the Gospel of grace can do that. You need to seriously understand how we read the Bible before you criticize us.

We use the law only for those who have rejected the faith, or who struggle with their faith, to point them back to Christ. God's law is holy and we all need to hear it from time to time, but we do not emphasize its use as much as a guide to the Christian life, as do other Christians such as the Reformed or Baptists. The guide to the Christian life is the grace we find in the Gospel and in the Sacraments. We reach up with one hand to heaven to receive God's good gifts, and one hand to earth to share them with our neighbor in need.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Phil, we Lutherans in the ELCA do not preach "do whatever you want as long as you don't get caught".

.
.
.

So what exactly do you think Jesus means when he says "sin no more"?

"Stay out of trouble".

 

[FireDragon76]

Phil, "stay out of trouble" was Jesus word to the woman caught in adultery, but it is not his word to all sinners in all times and places. The point of the story is not a bludgeon for the broken sinner, the gay man who wonders if God hates him, for instance, it is to show in fact Jesus compassion towards sinners.

Jesus was the least judgmental person to ever walk this earth, I am convinced. Many conservative Christians get him very wrong, and they read into him their judgmentalism and antipathy because they have subconscious anxieties about the mystery and complexity of life. That is why my church and many like it engage in critical readings of the texts, so that we can truly understand God's will and word for us. This is nothing new, Luther himself read the text critically. We are not departing from the faith we received in doing so.

 

[Phil 1:21]

Phil, "stay out of trouble" was Jesus word to the woman caught in adultery, but it is not his word to all sinners in all times and places.

Two points…

1) In the story to which you keep referring, Jesus said, “go, and sin no more.” (John 8:11) He did not say, “Stay out of trouble.”

2) Nowhere did I reference that story. As a matter of fact, I’ve repeated stated that all throughout scripture God commands us not to sin. You are the one narrowing that down to a single passage…a passage you insist on misquoting and spinning into a lesser command whereby sin is only a sin if it causes one to “get into trouble.” This is an enormously deficient theology and contrary to the very word of God.

 

[Tigger45]

Right, which is why this issue isn't even about "what the Bible says about homosexuality". It's about how we treat people who disagree with us and who do not share our religious beliefs. My church is clear on this issue, we uphold human dignity and do not discriminate based on religion or lack thereof. Two gay people that believe they are married and do not accept our religious beliefs regarding marriage should not be discriminated against merely for not agreeing with us, that shows prejudice against gays in doing so.

Sure, I was just replying to yeshuaslavejeff's general question about do Lutheran's (I took as a whole) teach the same thing about homosexuality and I thought it was fair to point out that confessional Lutheran's teach differently. Which it turns out he already had some prior knowledge of. Now my specific non-confessional Lutheran congregation (LCMC) when SSM first started becoming legal in the U.S. came out and stated that they/we do not preform SSM ceremonies and just left it at that. And when preaching on scripture containing sexual sin and/or homosexuality they don't call out homosexuality singularly as if it's a more deviate form of sin. Which I highly appreciate. I've visited evangelical churches where it wasn't uncommon to hear hateful anti-homosexual preaching that I could easily see how that approach would leave such a person feeling as if they were a leper. It's one thing to call sin a sin and entirely another thing to single out a specific people group.

 

[Phil 1:21]

And when preaching on scripture containing sexual sin and/or homosexuality they don't call out homosexuality singularly as if it's a more deviate form of sin. Which I highly appreciate. I've visited evangelical churches where it wasn't uncommon to hear hateful anti-homosexual preaching that I could easily see how that approach would leave such a person feeling as if they were a leper. It's one thing to call sin a sin and entirely another thing to single out a specific people group.

Excellent point. All too often folks act as though homoerotic sex is some special category of sin, which it's not. I'm glad our church, apparently much like yours, preaches this correctly in accordance with scripture.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree Tigger, and that is why even though we probably do have our disagreements as do our churches, I would consider you a brother in Christ. We can understand the Word of God as our conscience dictates, but there are some things a Christian should not do, because they are pharisaical.

My pastor is from a conservative LCMS background, is married to a Catholic wife and he holds views very much along traditional lines, at least he used to. We don't talk about sexual ethics much and I don't know precisely his views of the subject, and I'm not sure honestly I need to know. We are walking together even though we probably do not necessarily agree. The real magic of being a Christian is not in being right, but loving each other and helping each other grow into the image of God.

But one thing the pastor never would have done is tell a gay man he barely knows or doesn't know well and start telling him about how they needs to repent, leave their same sex relationship even if it wrecks their life, etc. That goes against Lutheran ethics and our sensibilities, it's not hospitable. We are far more tolerant than that, just because we recognize none of us is really righteous on our own. He used to be a lawyer and he's seen horrible things, "Nothing two guys do with a penis can come close", as he said.

My pastors attitude is that he has things to learn from everyone and his job is to help accompany people where they are at, that God does the real work. It's not to dictate to people every aspect of their lives, or force people to agree with him.

That's why I joined this church in the end, it was such a change from going to a church where every aspect of your life had to be perfect or you were expected to practically wear sackcloth and ashes the rest of your life. Where holiness was forced on your constantly, no matter how heavy your cross. God lead me to this church, and I experienced something profound one Pentecost where God showed me this was the real deal and I needed to stop being so cynical. A church doesn't have to be about rigid certainties, straight answers, or moral rectitude to be the exact place God wants you to be.

 

[Phil 1:21]

@FireDragon76 - Does your church perform same sex marriages?

 

[Paidiske]

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Thread closed at OP's request.
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