Trump is in violation of the canons of the Episcopal Church

[FireDragon76]

We do believe God commands us not to sin, where did I suggest otherwise?

We read the Bible differently, that doesn't make it wrong. If you wish to know more about our faith, you can approach a Lutheran pastor and request catechism.

 

[FireDragon76]

I would ask the moderators to close this thread. Fruitful discussion has ended and I see no good in trading barbs and accusations when there is a fundamental disagreement about Christian ethics and even the substance of the Christian life. I don't frankly need to be lectured about how my faith is wrong. My faith is the same as the apostles and martyrs, made present in the modern world. I am called to serve all people with love, as are you.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Obviously, it is clear there are now two different religions in this world, one follows Jesus in loving others with prodigal grace

THIS is [apparently , partly] TRUE and wonderful !
Yes !
The Father watched eagerly for , and received the prodigal son back WITH OPEN ARMS and had a FEAST FOR HIM,

..... just as soon as the prodigal returned to the Father.... (that's the catch)

 

[Phil 1:21]

We do believe God commands us not to sin, where did I suggest otherwise?

If he could also cite where Jesus told His disciples to partake in or enable sin, that would be helpful too. I seem to recall Him being pretty big on the whole "sin no more" thing.

Our church doesn't read that verse that way, it's been used by Pharisees over the centuries unjustly. Jesus is just saying "Don't get into trouble".

So when Jesus says “ sin no more” you think he’s really saying “don’t get caught”?

Not necessarily.

So what exactly do you think Jesus means when he says "sin no more"?

"Stay out of trouble".

 

[FireDragon76]

None of that denies that we acknowledge sin. If anything, I think Lutherans take sin very seriously. Please refrain from libel and accusing us of things we do not teach.

Lutheran ethics is more complicated than fundamentalist legalism, sorry. Perhaps you could seek to learn about our faith through a knowledgable teacher. You can always start a thread at Theologia Crucis and ask questions.

 

[Tigger45]

Remember though Martin Luther, as in this short excerpt from internet search:
"Looking back at the time of Martin Luther, the reformist was also against homosexuality as it was considered a sodomy, sinful and the works of the devil. According to ... Whence comes this perversion?"

Do any Lutheran churches still hold so strongly to the original faith of Lutherans ?

Confessional Lutherans teach homosexual behavior is contrary to the word of God.

 

[FireDragon76]

Confessional Lutherans teach homosexual behavior is contrary to the word of God.

And you are free to believe that in our church as well. You are not free, however, to discriminate against your gay neighbor, or to shame them or speak ill of them needlessly. That's an important distinction.

 

[Phil 1:21]

None of that denies that we acknowledge sin. If anything, I think Lutherans take sin very seriously.

Not based on what you’ve stated thus far. And honestly, I have a very difficult time believing you’ve accurately portrayed the beliefs of the Lutheran church as a whole -- perhaps your particular congregation, or just yourself as an individual.

Please refrain from libel and accusing us of things we do not teach.

If you have a problem with people restating your claims regarding the beliefs of your church, perhaps some introspection is in order. Just a kind suggestion.

 

[FireDragon76]

There is a book you should read, if you want a brief overview of how we in the ELCA approach reading the Bible, called Reading the Bible with Martin Luther, by Timothy Wengert. Needless to say, we take sin seriously, but we also take ethics seriously, and our ethics are shaped by both the Law and Gospel. We have a responsibility, an ethical responsibility, to make sure the Good News of God's love for you, a sinner, is heard clearly. Even while we preach God's law. Therefore, ethics is not a matter of legalism as in other churches, but it must respect the sinner as a person.

Respect for human dignity is fundamental to our ethics.

Reading the Bible with Martin Luther: An Introductory Guide

 

[Tigger45]

And you are free to believe that in our church as well. You are not free, however, to discriminate against your gay neighbor, or to shame them or speak ill of them needlessly. That's an important distinction.

I agree. I put all sexual sin in the same category, even my own.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Confessional Lutherans teach homosexual behavior is contrary to the word of God.

Yes, and likewise THank you, I was raised LCMS decades ago, and was always taught that there,
and every other church I've been in teaches likewise.
It was only in recent years I noticed some churches , that I am unable to go to,
don't hold to the Bible any more.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

You are not free, however, to discriminate against your gay neighbor, or to shame them or speak ill of them needlessly. That's an important distinction.

Jesus told everyone, not just gays, to repent.
Is that shaming everyone ?!

 

[Phil 1:21]

I agree. I put all sexual sin in the same category, even my own.

Absolutely! If my straight friend wanted me to cover for his adultery I could not. If my gay friend wanted me to celebrate his wedding I could not. It's never about the person, always about the sin.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Mr. Philips needs prayer, not affirmation in his erroneous conscience.

Everyone needs prayer,
and it doesn't look like anyone can speak for Mr.Philips conscience,
only for their own erroneous conscience, when that is the case.

 

[FireDragon76]

I agree. I put all sexual sin in the same category, even my own.

Right, which is why this issue isn't even about "what the Bible says about homosexuality". It's about how we treat people who disagree with us and who do not share our religious beliefs. My church is clear on this issue, we uphold human dignity and do not discriminate based on religion or lack thereof. Two gay people that believe they are married and do not accept our religious beliefs regarding marriage should not be discriminated against merely for not agreeing with us, that shows prejudice against gays in doing so.

 

[FireDragon76]

Jesus told everyone, not just gays, to repent.
Is that shaming everyone ?!

It can be if you use it in the wrong context. You aren't Jesus, don't commit a sin against the 1st commandment.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Therefore, ethics is not a matter of legalism as in other churches, but it must respect the sinner as a person.

Respect for human dignity is fundamental to our ethics.

This goes directly against God's Own Word "He is no respecter of persons" ...
(He shows NO favoritism; neither did the Apostles, teachers, prophets, etc)

(I tried to copy just one reference and somehow a bunch tagged along -
there's TWO DICTIONARIES references below also , that look good )

Acts 10:34 Then Peter began to speak: "I now realize how true ...
(34) Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons.--In regard to all distinctions of social rank, or wealth, or knowledge, Peter had seen in his Master ...
biblehub.com/acts/10-34.htm

Romans 2:11 For God does not show favoritism. - Bible Hub
For there is no respect of persons with God. Deuteronomy 10:17 For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great … Deuteronomy 16:19 You shall not ...
biblehub.com/romans/2-11.htm

Acts 10:34-35 KJV - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said ...
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness ...
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts+10:34-35&version=KJV

ROMANS 2:11 KJV "For there is no respect of persons with God."
Romans 2:11 KJV: For there is no respect of persons with God.
ROMANS 2:11 KJV "For there is no respect of persons with God."

Be No Respecter Of Persons - Merriam-Webster
Define be no respecter of persons: to treat all people in the same way — be no respecter of persons in a sentence
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/be no respecter of persons

God No Respecter Of Persons | Berean Bible Society
In Romans 2:11 we read that "there is no respect of persons with God," and these very words, with slight variations, are found many times in the Bible. How wonderful!

Legal Equality: No Respecter of Persons - lonang.com
LEGAL EQUALITY: NO RESPECTER OF PERSONS Page 1 INTRODUCTION In the United States today, we affirm equality w ith our words, but deny it with our actions.
https://lonang.com/wp-content/download/LegalEqualityNoRespec...

No Respecter of Persons | RTF - Road to Freedom
The disease of addiction is not a respecter of persons. Addiction does not discriminate against any age, race, sexual orientation, religion, etc. Read more.
No Respecter of Persons | RTF

God is no respecter of persons | Christian Forums
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: But in every nation he that feareth him, ...
https://www.christianforums.com/threads/god-is-no-respecter-of-persons.28...

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It can be if you use it in the wrong context. You aren't Jesus, don't commit a sin against the 1st commandment.

What does Jesus Himself Say ? (about sin?)

Does Jesus Himself ALLOW ANY unregenerate unrepentant sinners into heaven ?
(Jesus is the ONLY WAY IN)

 

[FireDragon76]

Actually, "God is not a respecter of persons" upholds human dignity and is exactly what I'm saying. God loves two gay men who have a civil marriage just as much as you. You have no right to shame them.

You don't clearly read the Bible. You read your own righteousness into it, when you should be letting the Law kill you so that you can be raised with the Gospel. Instead, you kill others with the Law and raise up yourself. But he who exalts himself will be humbled.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

It's about how we treat people who disagree with us and who do not share our religious beliefs.

This is what your point is?
I think ALL(Biblical) Christians agree with this, even me and all the others posting in this thread.
We treat everyone the same, with no "respect of persons" (their monyy, their position, their faith, their history, their heritage, their sexual preferences don't allow for treaing one better than the others nor with prejudice (except in any and every case to protect little ones from sinful harm) )