Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

[GingerBeer]

did you not say Luther and Calvin were cessationist? I don't regard their opinions to be infallible but I also do not call them cessationist.

Luther and Calvin made no claims to be endowed with supernatural revelatory gifts. Had they done so they would not have advanced the idea of sola scriptura. If they had claimed revelatory gifts they could have argued that they spoke for God on the issues they disputed against Catholicism and they would have had signs, wonders, and miracles as proofs but they did not. The reformers claimed that they had no need of miracles to support their teaching because they claimed that the miracles of the apostles and prophets of the new testament were all they needed as proofs for their teachings because they reasoned that what they taught was apostolic and biblical so the signs, wonders, and miracles of the apostles was proof enough. It was Catholic debaters who demanded miracles from the reformers as proofs because Catholics regarded the reformers' doctrines as new. Catholics demanded signs and wonders as proofs for what the they saw as Luther's new and novel doctrines.

But todays apostles and prophets rely on new miracles as proofs for their doctrines because they do not, in practise, teach sola scriptura. Some of today's apostles and prophets teach things like "oneness" because of new words from the Lord. Adventists teach their distinctive doctrines because of a prophetess' visions.

Refute oneness and Adventism if you can by arguing from the bible but you won't convince people who accept the apostles and prophets of these new revelations. Say that Adventists and Oneness teachers are rejecting sola scriptura and you won't convince them because they say that they believe sola scriptura and you're rejecting continuationism. Every argument you advance to prove continuationism is already used to prove oneness and adventism. Every time you try to correct oneness teaching you're forced to demand proofs that oneness is credible and biblical while in reply oneness teachers will point to the bible and their apostles' interpretations as proof that you're ideas are all wrong. Adventists will do the same. Catholics will also do the same by asking what signs, wonders, and miracles you have to prove your doctrines are true. Catholics will argue that you've got it all wrong because you have no apostolic successors to rightly interpret the scriptures while they do have apostolic successors who have a plethora of signs, wonders, and miracles to back up their interpretation of the scriptures and Apostolic Tradition.

cessationist view is that specific gifts have stopped, I'm looking for scripture support for them stopping. apostle/prophets can be further challenged in scripture but what about tongues? Where is the scriptural support to reject tongues?

You're wrong about what cessationists say has stopped; their view is that all extraordinary revelatory gifts have ceased because no new revelations are given, everything necessary for salvation and right living is already revealed in the scriptures. Let today's apostles and prophets offer the signs, wonders, and miracles of an apostle to establish their credentials from God. They are the ones making grandiose claims so they are the ones who have something to prove.

 

[Major1]

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That is a misrepresentation of what I said.

How so?

 

[JIMINZ]

Forgive me for intruding, and maybe you already addressed this, but if there is a continuation of the sign gifts among men, who is it that determines WHO has those gifts?

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The Holy Spirit, any Christian is capable of being used in any one of the Gifts at any time of the Holy Spirits choosing.

The Christian can have a Gift that he is fluent in all the time, and then if needed the Holy Spirit can endow him with another Gift, it does not mean that the Christian will retain that Gift for all time, but for the moment required he has it.

 

[JIMINZ]

How so?

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My post was not addressed to you .

ToBeLoved made the comment, and has not answered my post.
He was mistaken about what I said, because he disagrees with what I said.

 

[ToBeLoved]

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That is a misrepresentation of what I said.

I was asking. I highlighted the exact text I referenced.

How can I misrepresent by highlighting your own post and asking how scripture applies by default. I was wondering what you meant by it. Seriously.

 

[mindlight]

The problem with the entire premise is that the Holy Spirit gives gifts of the Spirit, and the Holy Spirit was given AFTER Jesus death, not in the gospels.

Because the Day of Pentecost is when the Holy Spirit is given to the church for the first time. So Jesus sending out disciples does not mean they had any gift of the Holy Spirit at all. As a matter of fact, Jesus Himself is clear, Jesus goes to the Father and the Father sends them the Comforter. Jesus said they should be glad He would go because only then, could He send the Holy Spirit.

So all these verses are irrelevant to gifts of the Holy Spirit which happened after His death. That is what Paul and the others are writing about, after Pentecost.

John 14:16-17
16 And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever — 17 the Spirit of truth.

John 7:39
He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

John 15:26
When the Advocate comes, whom I will send you from the Father--the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father--He will testify about Me.

John 16:7
But I tell you the truth, it is for your benefit that I am going away. Unless I go away, the Advocate will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you.

Not sure that view gives the Spirit His full due. The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters in the days of creation, He spoke through prophets as the creeds remind us. In whose Spirit did Elijah and Elisha perform miracles? Whose Spirit inspired the authors of all scripture? Even if the 70 healed only in the name and authority of Jesus are you suggesting that the Trinity was severed at this time and that the Spirit was not present. Also cannot we also act in the name of Christ who has sent us out to make disciples of all nations? Healings were performed in Acts as the church grew by non apostles like Phillip and Stephen for instance. Galatians and Corinth were both given instructions on the gifts of the Spirit. Is the growth of the Kingdom yet complete?. Has God simply left us now and will never heal or guide us? Since He dwells within us by his Spirit that seems unlikely.

We can distinguish between the intensity and reliability of the apostles ministry and those who see miracles today. There is noone like Peter or Paul today who can consistently perform major miracles. But that does not rule out miracles completely and these do still seem to be happening.

Are Signs and Wonders for Today? | Desiring God

 

[ToBeLoved]

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The Holy Spirit, any Christian is capable of being used in any one of the Gifts at any time of the Holy Spirits choosing.

The Christian can have a Gift that he is fluent in all the time, and then if needed the Holy Spirit can endow him with another Gift, it does not mean that the Christian will retain that Gift for all time, but for the moment required he has it.

Now I have never heard that.

That the Holy Spirit gives temporary Gifts of the Spirit. I think the person keeps it but maybe doesn't use it.

 

[mindlight]

Assuming your links are trustworthy, let me ask you, why dont these miracles happen in children's hospitals like Shriners for example?

Also, Why would God heal all our illnesses, but not restore a person born without arms or legs?

Jesus did heal someone with withered limbs so I guess we all have the hope that however crippled we are we shall all see healing.

I believe God can heal and that He does heal. But I cannot explain why this person is healed and another more desperate and perhaps worthier is not.

Also I believe healings are far rarer than most Pentecostals will admit but far more common than liberals or Cessationists believe.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Not sure that view gives the Spirit His full due. The Spirit of God was hovering over the waters in the days of creation, He spoke through prophets as the creeds remind us. In whose Spirit did Elijah and Elisha perform miracles? Whose Spirit inspired the authors of all scripture? Even if the 70 healed only in the name and authority of Jesus are you suggesting that the Trinity was severed at this time and that the Spirit was not present. Also cannot we also act in the name of Christ who has sent us out to make disciples of all nations? Healings were performed in Acts as the church grew by non apostles like Phillip and Stephen for instance. Galatians and Corinth were both given instructions on the gifts of the Spirit. Is the growth of the Kingdom yet complete?. Has God simply left us now and will never heal or guide us? Since He dwells within us by his Spirit that seems unlikely.

We can distinguish between the intensity and reliability of the apostles ministry and those who see miracles today. There is noone like Peter or Paul today who can consistently perform major miracles. But that does not rule out miracles completely and these do still seem to be happening.

Are Signs and Wonders for Today? | Desiring God

We are talking about Gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit sent on the Day of Pentecost to the apostles. The Holy Spirit promised by Jesus Christ. A specfic thing.

Not that I am trying to diminish any other role of the Holy Spirit.

You seem to want to move to a much more general topic of what and who the Holy Spirit is.

This conversation is specfiic to the gifts.

Maybe start a new thread and expand it to all things Holy Spirit

 

[ToBeLoved]

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The Holy Spirit, any Christian is capable of being used in any one of the Gifts at any time of the Holy Spirits choosing.

The Christian can have a Gift that he is fluent in all the time, and then if needed the Holy Spirit can endow him with another Gift, it does not mean that the Christian will retain that Gift for all time, but for the moment required he has it.

I don't think this is correct. When we are saved, the Holy Spirit, knowing the perfect will of God for us for our ministry for Christ gives us the gift we need.

This sounds like God has no idea of the plans He has for us and just plops some blessings on us at random.

What verses support this theology?

 

[JIMINZ]

Now I have never heard that.

That the Holy Spirit gives temporary Gifts of the Spirit. I think the person keeps it but maybe doesn't use it.

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OK, if that's what you want to believe.

 

[mindlight]

We are talking about Gifts of the Spirit. The Holy Spirit sent on the Day of Pentecost to the apostles. The Holy Spirit promised by Jesus Christ. A specfic thing.

Not that I am trying to diminish any other role of the Holy Spirit.

You seem to want to move to a much more general topic of what and who the Holy Spirit is.

This conversation is specfiic to the gifts.

Maybe start a new thread and expand it to all things Holy Spirit

The Nicene Creed says of the Spirit : " He has spoken through the prophets". The OP was focused on Cessationism being incompatible with scripture. You are imposing a chronology on the practice of the Eternal God that is neither scriptural or Creedal. Since healing and prophecy have occurred throughout scripture why would the outpouring of Pentecost diminish rather than enhance that possibility. The sending of Gods Spirit is to enable and affirm a ministry that God began thousands of years before , which Jesus demonstrated and trained His Disciples AND wider group of followers for. Most of the gifts of the Spirit occur throughout scripture with the exception of tongues which only occurs after Pentecost. At the end of time the two witnesses in Jerusalem also will prophesy in Gods Spirit. There is no case to be made from scripture to suggest that God does not heal or give prophecies to people today. He has always done this and will do so till the end.

 

[JIMINZ]

I don't think this is correct. When we are saved, the Holy Spirit, knowing the perfect will of God for us for our ministry for Christ gives us the gift we need.

This sounds like God has no idea of the plans He has for us and just plops some blessings on us at random.

What verses support this theology?

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Are you now, or have you ever been affiliated with the Pentecostal, or Charismatic movements, or any other groups which avow the usage of the Gifts of the Spirit?

 

[DamianWarS]

OKay, lets just put that behind us. My answer to your original points were these:

1. It is not about Sola Scriptura and certainly not a denial of it. Everyone on all sides in this is accepting of the Bible as authoritative. No one has made a case for using Tradition or a Pope or anything else in determining God's will. But of course, people who believe in Sola Scriptura do differ on interpretations OF Scripture, as with infant Baptism, the meaning of Communion, which day to worship on, and...this issue, too.

2. As I said several times, we are called Cessationists because tongues as part of the life of the church ceased. It is not a matter of wanting it to have happened or pretending that it happened when it did not.

That being so, how much sense is there in saying that they just continued on, uninterrupted, as they were in the first century?

It is not because of some evil church leaders that we know this to have happened. And since it happened, there has to be a meaning to your verse that is something other than you want it to be. So we are back to interpretation again and no one is cheating or denying Scripture to point that out.

Now you are trying tell cessationists why the believe as they do.

I have not offered any of those verses to counter your interpretation of the verse you lean on.

I, like many cessationists, am a cessationist only because tongues did cease--as I have said repeatedly. It is to recognize the facts. I am counting on you to deal with that on this thread and give us your reason for having dismissed or ignored it so far.

the term cessationist is derived from 1 Cor 13:8 where it is commonly translated as "[tongues] shall cease" and this verse has become the main biblical argument among cessationist. I don't dictate what cessationist believe or what they do not but this is where the term is from.

Your main argument is around that historical observation that these gifts have discontinued within church practice and have concluded that these gifts in question have ceased so when you read a passage like 1 Cor 13:8 and context it is natural for you to see this text as talking about this general time where these gifts no longer were practiced... like say about 200 AD.

Why did these gift loose value within the church? I don't know because I wasn't there. I can only hypothesize that the church had diminishing values of these gifts because christendom was firmly established within the Roman empire and evangelism on a whole was de-emphasised (since everyone was christian). As church tradition became further cemented these gifts no longer has the same value.

Leadership within the church post-nicean became very articulated as well as arrogant in knowledge. tongues/interpretation could be viewed as anti-hierarchy as the power and knowledge of the HS could be dealt to the perceived weakest, or poorest members of the church rather than the more powerful leadership. It can threaten the structure of the church from the bottom up and no one who is interested in power. Why emphasis these gifts when they are already diminished and risk controversy?

The reformation took root and despite reformers like Luther and Calvin who did not agree with a cessationist interpretation (which wasn't even a thing then) of 1 Cor 13 these lost values of the church continued. As a whole I would suggest these gifts were neglected and faded from use but still available.

The roman empire is no more and there are still thousands of unreached people groups who have never heard the gospel. Biblically speaking these gifts are valued and have a role in evangelism as well as church practice. Interpretations of the maturity of the church is lost when there still is such a strong demand to spread the gospel. There are accounts of organic churches emerging where no christian is known or no bible is present. The church still needs to be empowered by the HS and spread the gospel as the historical system of the church has proven it's inability to reach all the lost.

I value the gifts because scripture values the gifts.

 

[W2L]

Where are all the prophets, healers and translators? Isn't translating tongues also a gift of the spirit? Why do we not see them?

 

[Albion]

the term cessationist is derived from 1 Cor 13:8 where it is commonly translated as "[tongues] shall cease" and this verse has become the main biblical argument among cessationist. I don't dictate what cessationist believe or what they do not but this is where the term is from.

Obviously, "cessationist" is derived from "cessation;" but the term was created by Pentecostals as something with which to label those Christians who don't agree with them.

Your main argument is around that historical observation that these gifts have discontinued within church practice and have concluded that these gifts in question have ceased so when you read a passage like 1 Cor 13:8 and context it is natural for you to see this text as talking about this general time where these gifts no longer were practiced... like say about 200 AD.

Why did these gift loose value within the church?

I didn't say that they lost value; I said that they ceased because the purpose for which they were widely given in the days of the early church had been fulfilled.

I can only hypothesize that the church had diminishing values of these gifts because christendom was firmly established within the Roman empire and evangelism on a whole was de-emphasised (since everyone was christian). As church tradition became further cemented these gifts no longer has the same value.

No one needs to hypothesize. The history of the Christian church is well known and documented.

The reformation took root and despite reformers like Luther and Calvin who did not agree with a cessationist interpretation (which wasn't even a thing then) of 1 Cor 13 these lost values of the church continued. As a whole I would suggest these gifts were neglected and faded from use but still available.

Well, now you ARE hypothesizing, speculating that tongues were available if wanted. What does that even mean--available? Tongues, argued from any perspective, are a gift of the Holy Spirit, not something you can just pick up at the store if you have a mind to.

I value the gifts because scripture values the gifts.

As was already said, the dispute is not between people who "value" the gift and those who detest or reject it. The dispute is between those who believe that tongues as they operated in the early church gradually faded away until they only appeared occasionally (That's cessation) and people who insist that history is wrong and the tongues never have ceased to be as prominent a feature of the church as they were in antiquity.

 

[ToBeLoved]

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OK, if that's what you want to believe.

What verses support this?

 

[ToBeLoved]

the term cessationist is derived from 1 Cor 13:8 where it is commonly translated as "[tongues] shall cease" and this verse has become the main biblical argument among cessationist. I don't dictate what cessationist believe or what they do not but this is where the term is from.

Your main argument is around that historical observation that these gifts have discontinued within church practice and have concluded that these gifts in question have ceased so when you read a passage like 1 Cor 13:8 and context it is natural for you to see this text as talking about this general time where these gifts no longer were practiced... like say about 200 AD.

Why did these gift loose value within the church? I don't know because I wasn't there. I can only hypothesize that the church had diminishing values of these gifts because christendom was firmly established within the Roman empire and evangelism on a whole was de-emphasised (since everyone was christian). As church tradition became further cemented these gifts no longer has the same value.

Leadership within the church post-nicean became very articulated as well as arrogant in knowledge. tongues/interpretation could be viewed as anti-hierarchy as the power and knowledge of the HS could be dealt to the perceived weakest, or poorest members of the church rather than the more powerful leadership. It can threaten the structure of the church from the bottom up and no one who is interested in power. Why emphasis these gifts when they are already diminished and risk controversy?

The reformation took root and despite reformers like Luther and Calvin who did not agree with a cessationist interpretation (which wasn't even a thing then) of 1 Cor 13 these lost values of the church continued. As a whole I would suggest these gifts were neglected and faded from use but still available.

The roman empire is no more and there are still thousands of unreached people groups who have never heard the gospel. Biblically speaking these gifts are valued and have a role in evangelism as well as church practice. Interpretations of the maturity of the church is lost when there still is such a strong demand to spread the gospel. There are accounts of organic churches emerging where no christian is known or no bible is present. The church still needs to be empowered by the HS and spread the gospel as the historical system of the church has proven it's inability to reach all the lost.

I value the gifts because scripture values the gifts.

Cessationist is a theology position, right?

 

[ToBeLoved]

Obviously, "cessationist" is derived from "cessation;" but the term was created by Pentecostals as something to label those Christians with who don't agree with them.


I didn't say that they lost value; I said that they ceased because the purpose for which they were widely given in the days of the early church had been fulfilled.

No one needs to hypothesize. The history of the Christian church is well known and documented.



Well, now you ARE hypothesizing, speculating that tongues were available if wanted. What does that even mean--available? Tongues, argued from any perspective, are a gift of the Holy Spirit, not something you can just pick up at the store if you have a mind to.


As was already said, the dispute is not between people who "value" the gift and those who detest or reject it. The dispute is between those who believe that tongues as they operated in the early church gradually faded away until they only appeared occasionally (That's cessation) and people who insist that history is wrong and the tongues never have ceased to be as prominent a feature of the church as they were in antiquity.

I do love your posts!

 

[JIMINZ]

I don't think this is correct. When we are saved, the Holy Spirit, knowing the perfect will of God for us for our ministry for Christ gives us the gift we need.

This sounds like God has no idea of the plans He has for us and just plops some blessings on us at random.

What verses support this theology?

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Isn't all that God wills, His Perfect Will?
Does God have anything less than His Perfect Will?

Are you of the belief, God moves us (Believers) around like a bunch of manikins, are you always in the exact spot where God wants you to be in, when He wants you to be there?

My belief is, it's not some Gift of the Holy Spirit which we are endowed with during the occasion of our Salvation for "Our Ministry" The Holy Spirit will manifest Himself through us as needed, in whatever circumstances we might find ourselves, be it Healing, a Word of Knowledge, Prophesy, Interpretation, Etc.

With the filling of the Individual believer with the Holy Spirit, comes the Gift of Tongues, this Gift is for the Edification of the individual believer, and for the Edification of the Church he might find himself.

To make things understood, I do not believe in Destiny, Destiny to me means, I do not have a choice in the matter, which means I am a puppet.

Therefore with that in mind, I could be driving down some road and come upon an accident where I am then able to help in some physical way, that is exactly the same for being in the right place at the right time to Minister Spiritually to someone in need, in neither case am I placed into that position, God has given unto all Believers the Holy Spirit, and thereby we are capable of Ministering to whoever, whenever, are we dragged there to do the Ministering, NO.

It all comes down to your viewpoint of God, the Holy Spirit, and the Believer, where and how do we fit into the equation.