Vatican II's teaching on religious freedom changed policy, not doctrine

[Michie]

Interesting essay on seperation of Church and State.

Conscience and Coercion | Thomas Pink

 

[Halbhh]

What is the church's official position on the Inquisition?

Does the church still think it has authority to kill people?

 

[Stabat Mater dolorosa]

What is the church's official position on the Inquisition?

Does the church still think it has authority to kill people?

Except she never did, you're confusing the church with the state.
The church did declare people heretics, but the sword/ death sentence/ torture was carried out by the governments.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Except she never did, you're confusing the church with the state.
The church did declare people heretics, but the sword/ death sentence/ torture was carried out by the governments.

Stabat, you are such a huge help as I try to navigate and understand the Catholic Church better. I wanted to send something your way, especially in light of your real, valid concerns about Pope Francis ('cause the other thread was locked).

Mother of God

This link above gets you to an awesome forum, where Traditionalist Catholics and seekers can discuss, express fears and concerns, and call heresy heresy. And pray for one another, the Pope, and the Dubia Cardinals.

God bless you, man. You have been and are a great blessing, to me, and others.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Also, the only Scripture verse I've yet seen that might point to or allude to physical / life-ending punishment for sin would be1 Corinthians 5:1-5.

 

[Halbhh]

Stabat, you are such a huge help as I try to navigate and understand the Catholic Church better. I wanted to send something your way, especially in light of your real, valid concerns about Pope Francis ('cause the other thread was locked).

Mother of God

This link above gets you to an awesome forum, where Traditionalist Catholics and seekers can discuss, express fears and concerns, and call heresy heresy. And pray for one another, the Pope, and the Dubia Cardinals.

God bless you, man. You have been and are a great blessing, to me, and others.

Before you participate with anyone calling anything heresy, and me too, we should read through the 4 Gospels, so that we can be sure we don't call a direct paraphrase of Christ Jesus a 'heresy'.....

Why? Because reading though homilies from Francis, I'm seeing direct paraphrase after direct paraphrase of Christ Jesus.

Read 5 or 10, and see for yourself:
Pope Francis - Homilies - Vatican Radio

 

[Halbhh]

Also, the only Scripture verse I've yet seen that might point to or allude to physical / life-ending punishment for sin would be1 Corinthians 5:1-5.

That excommunication, the only one in the NT I know of, was Paul wrote that in hope that by suffering outside the congregation, that flagrant sinner would turn and be saved, finally, before his end. In hope for his repentance. There was no execution.

Gospel of John, chapter 8 starts with how execution here on Earth is no longer done by believers, when when someone was guilty of an executable crime by the law.

 

[anna ~ grace]

Before you participate with anyone calling anything heresy, and me too, we should read through the 4 Gospels, so that we can be sure we don't call a direct paraphrase of Christ Jesus a 'heresy'.....

Why? Because reading though homilies from Francis, I'm seeing direct paraphrase after direct paraphrase after direct paraphrase after direct paraphrase of Christ Jesus.

Read 5 or 10, and see for yourself:
Pope Francis - Homilies - Vatican Radio

Halbhh; I agree that heresy is a word not to be wielded lightly. But there are times when it is appropriate, and accurate. I won't get into that here. But having somewhere to talk about what is happening at the Vatican, in the Church, and in our hearts and minds as we go through increasingly difficult trials can be a huge blessing. I just wanted to point out a place on-line that might help Stabat, and others.

 

[Halbhh]

Halbhh; I agree that heresy is a word not to be wielded lightly. But there are times when it is appropriate, and accurate. I won't get into that here. But having somewhere to talk about what is happening at the Vatican, in the Church, and in our hearts and minds as we go through increasingly difficult trials can be a huge blessing. I just wanted to point out a place on-line that might help Stabat, and others.

Ok, and I don't know for certain you were thinking of something Francis said, and wanted to warn you that over and over Francis lines up perfectly with Christ Jesus our Lord.

 

[anna ~ grace]

That excommunication, the only one in the NT I know of, was Paul wrote in hope that by suffering, that flagrant sinner would turn and be saved. In hope for his repentance. There was no execution.

Gospel of John, chapter 8 starts with how execution here on Earth is no longer done by believers, when when someone was guilty of an executable crime by the law.

Ok, but my translation does say "destruction of the flesh". Not "emotional suffering".

 

[anna ~ grace]

Ok, and I don't know for certain you were thinking of something Francis said, and wanted to warn you that over and over Francis lines up perfectly with Christ Jesus our Lord.

Debatable. But again, not on-topic, so.... I think we can just agree that praying for Pope Francis right now is incredibly vital, and can not be done enough.

 

[Halbhh]

Ok, but my translation does say "destruction of the flesh". Not "emotional suffering".

That's the text, accurately, yes, meaning that without the protection of the Church, outside it, he would be subject to (normal mortal) suffering without any protection of fellow believers or fellowship, and thus feel, as an emotion and thought and experience, the bad effects of the life of sin, and thus, hopefully, turn and repent. Unrepented sin leads of course leads to death, spiritually, but it also leads to suffering even here in the mortal life, in time.

 

[anna ~ grace]

That's the text, accurately, yes, meaning that without the protection of the Church, outside it, he would be subject to (normal mortal) suffering without any protection of fellow believers or fellowship, and thus feel, as an emotion and thought and experience, the bad effects of the life of sin, and thus, hopefully, turn and repent. Unrepented sin leads of course leads to death, spiritually, but it also leads to suffering even here in the mortal life, in time.

 

[Basil the Great]

Except she never did, you're confusing the church with the state.
The church did declare people heretics, but the sword/ death sentence/ torture was carried out by the governments.

While it is true that the State carried out the death penalty, it is also true that the Catholic Encyclopedia itself acknowledges that at least five popes and probably more, forced the civil authorities to put heretics to death, under threat of excommunication.

 

[Basil the Great]

Ok, and I don't know for certain you were thinking of something Francis said, and wanted to warn you that over and over Francis lines up perfectly with Christ Jesus our Lord.

I believe that Pope Francis is a Godly man.

 

[anna ~ grace]

While it is true that the State carried out the death penalty, it is also true that the Catholic Encyclopedia itself acknowledges that at least five popes and probably more, forced the civil authorities to put heretics to death, under threat of excommunication.

And my personal take on 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 is that it *seems* to be referring to a destruction of the flesh in this life, so that the soul may yet be saved on the Last Day. Which could at least include the possibility of executing heretics. Does anyone else have any info on this?

 

[Halbhh]

And my personal take on 1 Corinthians 5:1-5 is that it *seems* to be referring to a destruction of the flesh in this life, so that the soul may yet be saved on the Last Day. Which could at least include the possibility of executing heretics. Does anyone else have any info on this?

Read the text and you see it is not believers, not the church, that does that destruction. If the church tried to do it, it would be acting as if that other force Paul wrote of, therefore you can be sure the church isn't to do so.

 

[Rhamiel]

Also, the only Scripture verse I've yet seen that might point to or allude to physical / life-ending punishment for sin would be1 Corinthians 5:1-5.

I agree

Gospel of John, chapter 8 starts with how execution here on Earth is no longer done by believers, when when someone was guilty of an executable crime by the law.

huh? where does it say that?
you seem to be reading a lot into that situation
you are looking at a particular event and assuming it means some standard response

for example the situation was used to entrap Jesus, not people seeking true justice
only the woman was brought forth, not the man who was committing adultery with her, this clearly shows that this was not a true cry for justice

also it was not a court that was calling for her death, just a mob of people

but the main thing is that this was not a true search for justice but rather a way to entrap Jesus, either showing Him to be "soft on crime" or "harsh on common people"

also keep in mind that in Romans 13:4 Paul describes civil rulers as servants of God and agents of wrath for those who do wrong

 

[Halbhh]

mob

You are right to wonder where is the man.

But...a "mob" of scribes and Pharisees?

That's reading something into it.

How are they a "mob" when they come and ask Him and wait for His answer?

?

Read the passage and think again.

Once you realize it's not an impassioned mob, next notice what happens.

He changes the rule ...now His new rule is the person without sin is to cast the first stone.

Entirely new. That was #not# in the Law... until this moment.

 

[Rhamiel]

you quote one word of my post and seem to pretty much ignore the rest
if you read the Scripture the same way you read peoples posts I can see why your views are so deeply mistaken

You are right to wonder where is the man

thank you
but you just seem to gloss over it
an instance that specifically shows that this is NOT a normal case of someone breaking the law, this is one instance of many in the scripture where the Pharisees try to trap Jesus with what they see as "no win situations"

But...a "mob" of scribes and Pharisees?

That's reading something into it.

How are they a "mob" when they come and ask Him and wait for His answer?

?

Read the passage and think again.

Once you realize it's not an impassioned mob, next notice what happens.

I did not say an impassioned mob
I said a mob, like a lynch mob
a group of people acting in an extrajudicial manner in order to kill someone who they feel is guilty

they are not a legitimate authority, they are not just sadists, they are not soldiers or police
so "mob" was the best word I could think of, maybe a bit anachronistic, but we should search for truth instead of just playing word games

He changes the rule ...now His new rule is the person without sin is to cast the first stone.

Entirely new. That was #not# in the Law... until this moment.

where does Jesus say this is the new rule?
you are taking a specific instance and warping it into a hard rule
a rule that goes against how Christians have historically interpreted this verse
novel innovations dreamed up by the imaginations of men should be frowned upon when searching for the wisdom of God