MYSTERY SOLVED

[Oldmantook]

Yes the disobedient people were taken away in destruction as Noah and his family were safely above it all.

Which brings us to Lot, notice the very day Lot leaves Sodom destruction occurs, which we can see at the end of Rev 14 after the harvest.

So based on the example of Noah, the rapture belief is scripturally unjustified because Noah and his family remained on the earth during the flood. Noah and his family were not "raptured" from the earth. Same thing with Lot, God provided a way of escape but he remained on the earth. Rev 14:19 specifically refers to the wrath of God - not Satan's wrath. Believers will experience persecution stemming from Satan's wrath as we go through the tribulation. Many will be martyred.
On the other hand, the end-time harvest of those who do evil is referenced in Rev 14:18-20 as they experience God's wrath.

 

[Davy]

Daniel 9:24 is a summary of the 70 weeks prophecy of the coming New Covenant Messiah, who would fulfill the New Covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34. (See Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 8:6-13)
Daniel was reading from the Book of Jeremiah, when the angel Gabriel appeared.

I gotta agree with Choose Wisely, the Daniel 9 Scripture is not about men's doctrine of the 70 weeks being completed with Christ's Mission to die on the cross.

Many of you folks that think the 70 weeks was completed often don't consider the Dan.11 Scripture about the coming false one to Jerusalem to end sacrifices and setup an abomination idol in the temple. That's what the Dan.9:27 verse is about, which is certainly not... about my Lord Jesus Christ.

 

[BABerean2]

That's what the Dan.9:27 verse is about, which is certainly not... about my Lord Jesus Christ.

Do you deny that Daniel chapter 9 is about the New Covenant Messiah?

The scriptural reference beside of Daniel 9:27 in my NKJV Bible is Matthew 26:28.

Show me an antecedent for an antichrist and show me a gap of time in the 490 year prophecy.

Was there a period of about 7 years when the Gospel was taken first to Daniel's people, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles?


Mat 10:5　 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:　
Mat 10:6　 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.　
Mat 10:7　 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.　



Gal 1:14　 And profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers.　
Gal 1:15　 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,　
Gal 1:16　 To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood:　
Gal 1:17　 Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.　
Gal 1:18　 Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.　




.

 

[Davy]

Do you deny that Daniel chapter 9 is about the New Covenant Messiah?

I emphatically deny men's doctrine that treat the false one of Daniel 9 & 11 as being Jesus. The only mention of Jesus in the Dan.9 Scripture is about the event of His 1st coming, and His death (being cut off). That in no way completed the Dan.9:24 verse.

 

[Davy]

The Dan.11:45 verse is about the "vile person" of Dan.11:21 who is to appear in Jerusalem, and conquer using peace and flatteries. The timeline continues into the Dan.12 chapter though, which points to the time of great tribulation Jesus taught of in His Olivet Discourse, and thereafter.

Dan 11:45
45 And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him.


Daniel 12

12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
KJV

That reveals clearly that "vile person" is till yet to come today, for the tribulation Jesus taught has yet to occur.

 

[Choose Wisely]

So based on the example of Noah, the rapture belief is scripturally unjustified because Noah and his family remained on the earth during the flood. Noah and his family were not "raptured" from the earth. Same thing with Lot, God provided a way of escape but he remained on the earth. Rev 14:19 specifically refers to the wrath of God - not Satan's wrath. Believers will experience persecution stemming from Satan's wrath as we go through the tribulation. Many will be martyred.
On the other hand, the end-time harvest of those who do evil is referenced in Rev 14:18-20 as they experience God's wrath.

You can hang around and experience the Tribulation if you want.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I'm going to be ready for the secret pretribulation rapture.

 

[BABerean2]

I emphatically deny men's doctrine that treat the false one of Daniel 9 & 11 as being Jesus. The only mention of Jesus in the Dan.9 Scripture is about the event of His 1st coming, and His death (being cut off). That in no way completed the Dan.9:24 verse.

You have failed to produce a singular antecedent in the passage for an antichrist.

You have failed to show a "gap" of time in the 490 years.


Did God anoint Jesus Christ, based on Acts 10:38?

Did Christ make an end of sin, based on Hebrews 10:16-18?

Do you deny that the Gospel was taken to Daniel's people for about 7 years, before Paul took the Gospel to the Gentiles, based on Matthew 10:5-7, and Galatians 1:14-18 ?

Do you think the angel Gabriel came to reveal the timeline of the New Covenant Messiah and then he forgot to mention the New Covenant already promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34?

.

 

[Oldmantook]

You can hang around and experience the Tribulation if you want.

1 Thes 4
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I'm going to be ready for the secret pretribulation rapture.

Your choice; I replied to all of your arguments.

 

[seventysevens]

Right from the start you have misunderstood the 1 Thess.4 Scripture.

NO the failure is totally on your lack of understanding simple English , it cannot be any clearer , both the dead and the living are caught up together at the same time to the same place to meet the same Jesus in the same moment -

It is absolute lunacy to say that happens at two different times - at a later time there are some others that meet Christ but that in no way changes the fact that -, Paul spoke of both the dead and the living are caught up together at the same time to the same place to meet the same Jesus in the same moment, in th e reference that he was speaking of

I have one question of you
find one scripture that is as plain and concise as when God said to Noah - Build an ark as that ark will protect you through the destruction that will take place in the flood - Simple straight forward to the point That is how God tells people he will protect them through his commands of destruction

Show me just one scripture where Born Again Christians who accepted salvation BEFORE the GREAT TRIB Begins that they will be going through the Great Trib NOT just regular but GREAT TRIBULATION as spoken of by Jesus
that shows as clear instruction precisely how God will protect through the GREAT TRIB

You know you cannot find it and that is why you think that if you can pile up a mass of scriptures that are merely assumption that you can make it say what you want it to ,,but I know the scripture that is very clear that we will not be her during the Great trib,

what you may find are people who after the
Great Trib begins repent and accept Christ , and you mistakenly believe every Christian will go through it
As I see many who have this misunderstanding I am finding a way to present the key scripture , especially as seeing that you are unable to see the clear text that clearly states together and you do not understand what together means , it is truly shocking ,

 

[BABerean2]

NO the failure is totally on your lack of understanding simple English , it cannot be any clearer , both the dead and the living are caught up together at the same time to the same place to meet the same Jesus in the same moment -

It is absolute lunacy to say that happens at two different times - at a later time there are some others that meet Christ but that in no way changes the fact that -, Paul spoke of both the dead and the living are caught up together at the same time to the same place to meet the same Jesus in the same moment, in th e reference that he was speaking of

I have one question of you
find one scripture that is as plain and concise as when God said to Noah - Build an ark as that ark will protect you through the destruction that will take place in the flood - Simple straight forward to the point That is how God tells people he will protect them through his commands of destruction

Show me just one scripture where Born Again Christians who accepted salvation BEFORE the GREAT TRIB Begins that they will be going through the Great Trib NOT just regular but GREAT TRIBULATION as spoken of by Jesus
that shows as clear instruction precisely how God will protect through the GREAT TRIB

You know you cannot find it and that is why you think that if you can pile up a mass of scriptures that are merely assumption that you can make it say what you want it to ,,but I know the scripture that is very clear that we will not be her during the Great trib,

what you may find are people who after the
Great Trib begins repent and accept Christ , and you mistakenly believe every Christian will go through it
As I see many who have this misunderstanding I am finding a way to present the key scripture , especially as seeing that you are unable to see the clear text that clearly states together and you do not understand what together means , it is truly shocking ,

1Co 15:22　 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.　
1Co 15:23　 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


parousia

par-oo-see'-ah

From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.


1Th 4:13　 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.　
1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.　
1Th 4:15　 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Gk. parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.　
1Th 4:16　 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(Look up the word "descend" in the dictionary.)　
1Th 4:17　 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.　
1Th 5:1　 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.　
(The word "But" is a connector that connects the event at the end of chapter 4 to the timing at the beginning of chapter 5.)
1Th 5:2　 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (This same language is used in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, which are Second Coming passages.)　
1Th 5:3　 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.　
1Th 5:4　 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.　
1Th 5:5　 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.　
1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.　
1Th 5:7　 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.　
1Th 5:8　 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.　
1Th 5:9　 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,　
1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　

The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse above prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

We have just seen the text that kills the pretrib rapture doctrine.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.
It must be imported from elsewhere to make the pretrib doctrine work.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, American pastors at the time of the Revolutionary War understood that the event above occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

.

 

[seventysevens]

1Co 15:22　 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.　
1Co 15:23　 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


parousia

par-oo-see'-ah

From the present participle of G3918; a being near, that is, advent (often, return; specifically of Christ to punish Jerusalem, or finally the wicked); (by implication) physical aspect: - coming, presence.


1Th 4:13　 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.　
1Th 4:14　 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.　
1Th 4:15　 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming (Gk. parousia) of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.　
1Th 4:16　 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
(Look up the word "descend" in the dictionary.)　
1Th 4:17　 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.　
1Th 4:18　 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.　
1Th 5:1　 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.　
(The word "But" is a connector that connects the event at the end of chapter 4 to the timing at the beginning of chapter 5.)
1Th 5:2　 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. (This same language is used in 2 Peter 3:10 and Revelation 16:15-16, which are Second Coming passages.)　
1Th 5:3　 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.　
1Th 5:4　 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.　
1Th 5:5　 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.　
1Th 5:6　 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.　
1Th 5:7　 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.　
1Th 5:8　 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.　
1Th 5:9　 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,　
1Th 5:10　 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.　

The words "we" and "sleep" in the verse above prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

We have just seen the text that kills the pretrib rapture doctrine.

There is no trip back to heaven in the passage.
It must be imported from elsewhere to make the pretrib doctrine work.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons, American pastors at the time of the Revolutionary War understood that the event above occurs at the beginning of Christ's Second Coming.


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.answersinrevelation.org/pretrib_history.pdf

.

False you just don't understand , just as I stated you post scriptures that DO NOT address the question !! and because you can't find a scripture that answers the question you flood the screen with text that does not apply to the question
I don't care about people who write their opinions in books as it is nothing more than opinions
ALL THE SCRIPTURES IN THE BIBLE ABOUT THE SECOND COMING DOES NOT APPLY TO THE QUESTION IT IS ABOUT TIME YOU SHOW YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU READ !!!

 

[Davy]

You have failed to produce a singular antecedent in the passage for an antichrist.

That's a chain YOU try to put on God's Word there which does not exist. The fact that the events in Rev.13 about the "dragon" directly parallels what that "vile person" in the Book of Daniel is to do, and including what our Lord Jesus warned from the Book of Daniel, all pointing to that false one coming, well that makes playing games with the word antichrist look really ignorant, and makes all the rest of your arguments moot.

 

[Davy]

NO the failure is totally on your lack of understanding simple English , it cannot be any clearer , both the dead and the living are caught up together at the same time to the same place to meet the same Jesus in the same moment -

Well, I plainly revealed directly from the 1 Thess.4 Scripture how you are lacking in your understanding of the order, and all you can do is throw out insults.

You're not someone I want to discourse with that can't control their emotions, and thus stop throwing out insults just because you don't understand something.

 

[seventysevens]

Well, I plainly revealed directly from the 1 Thess.4 Scripture how you are lacking in your understanding of the order, and all you can do is throw out insults.

You're not someone I want to discourse with that can't control their emotions, and thus stop throwing out insults just because you don't understand something.

Fact is you have the facts wrong and it is YOU that does not understand , I have asked of YOU a question which you refuse to answer simply cause you don't want to acknowledge you are wrong , so it is you who throw out insults in lieu of any truth

 

[Davy]

Fact is you have the facts wrong and it is YOU that does not understand , I have asked of YOU a question which you refuse to answer simply cause you don't want to acknowledge you are wrong , so it is you who throw out insults in lieu of any truth

Even now your emotions are out of control.

 

[seventysevens]

Even now your emotions are out of control.

Again you are wrong , you avoid truth and do nothing except accuse others of the very thing that you are doing , you can't give facts so you throw insults

 

[Revealing Times]

It's fine to have your opinion, but the fact is Jesus plainly stated that he will return as a thief right before the battle of Armageddon. Whether you agree or not with what Jesus stated is certainly your prerogative.

Mmmm. no you added Armageddon yourself. But Jesus was telling Israeli Jews that he would come back as a thief, whom Paul explains come in the middle of the night, and people of the day are not surprised because they are children of the day, thus they will not be caught unawares, because they are not of the dark, but of the light. Meaning of course they will have been raptured (they will be with the Light/Jesus, they will not be in the Dark/Tribulations, either they will be raptured as Christians or protected by God/LIGHT in the Wilderness, if they are in the Light (In Christ). Only Children of the dark go through tribulation, or people who became Christians after the Rapture, but they are the Martyrs in Rev. 6, the 5th Seal.

I don't think you get it at all. Yet you try and base all of your understanding off of one scripture, which is dangerous anyway, no one should do that. Its very clear the Church is raptured first.

 

[Revealing Times]

Actually, it's you that have not properly understood the rapture of 1 Thess.4.

In Rev.19 about Jesus coming from Heaven with His army, Paul said in 1 Thess.4 that Jesus will bring the saints who 'sleep' with Him when He comes...

1 Thess 4:13-14
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with Him.
KJV

At that point in time, the saints still alive on earth have yet to be raptured to Jesus, but are getting ready to, and will join with Him and the asleep saints He brings with Him on His return to this earth. This means a gathering to Jesus of TWO SEPARATE GROUPS OF SAINTS from two different locations, the asleep saints from the heavenly, and the alive saints on the earth. The Matt.24 and Mark 13 Scripture parallels this view of the two groups, as does 1 Thess.4. So this is a very fundamental idea given in those Scriptures, yet the pre-trib rapture theorists try to change it.

The Church are shown marrying the Lamb in Heaven in Rev. ch. 19. Try again.

 

[Davy]

The Church are shown marrying the Lamb in Heaven in Rev. ch. 19. Try again.

Easy:

Rev.19:1-3 --- the great harlot is judged, meaning end of the tribulation with Jesus' return.

Rev.19:4-6 --- rejoice because The LORD GOD is then reigning over the earth. (this is not going well for the pre-trib rapture theorists).

Rev 19:7-9
7 Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to Him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and His wife hath made herself ready.

8 And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints.

9 And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God.
KJV

So from the beginning of the Rev.19 chapter, it's a FUTURE FORWARD VIEW in time after Christ Jesus has returned and taken over all kingdoms like the 7th trumpet events show in Rev.11.

Not about the time timing of 1 Thess.4 at all, but after it.

Then...

Rev.19:11-21 --- the day of The Lord, the day of Christ's second coming, with His army FROM Heaven to fight the wicked on earth (the asleep saints raised He brings with Him).

 

[Revealing Times]

I don't believe that Armageddon takes place at the end of the Tribulation. Armageddon takes place at the end of the Wrath of God.
The Tribulation is over in Revelation 6
Revelation 6
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

How do we know that the Tribulation is over in Rev 6????

Matt 24
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE TRIBULATION........BEGINS.....The Sun and Moon are Darkened. The Day of the Lord is a 3.5 year period of time. (Beast reigns 42 Months these periods are the same). Everyone knows the Tribulation of those days begin with the Anti-Christ coming to power or the First Seal being opened.

All you have to do is READ to understand the Tribulation/Troubles/Wrath of God continues. Instead you want to change all of the Scriptures to fit your misunderstanding of the Greek interpretation or translation into English. The Sun and thus the Moon gets DARK during the Vials also, have you ever thought about that?

Rev. 16:10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,

However I actually believe this might be referring to blinded minds/darkness of the heart because of the root word used there.