Cessationist and Sola Scriptura don't mix

[JIMINZ]

Paul mentions signs of an apostle. Apparently apostles have many gifts. They are teachers, healers, prophets, speakers of tongues, etc...



I dunno, what do you think?

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Answering the question of is an Evangelist the same as an Apostle?

Act. 21:8
And the next day we that were of Paul's company departed, and came unto Caesarea: and we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him.

2Ti. 4:5
But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

Evangelist:
G2099
εὐαγγελιστής
euaggelistēs
yoo-ang-ghel-is-tace'
From G2097; a preacher of the gospel: - evangelist.

G2097
εὐαγγελίζω
euaggelizō
yoo-ang-ghel-id'-zo
From G2095 and G32; to announce good news (“evangelize”) especially the gospel: - declare, bring (declare, show) glad (good) tidings, preach (the gospel).

G2095
εὖ
eu
yoo
Neuter of a primary word εὖς eus (good); (adverbially) well: - good, well (done).

G32
ἄγγελος
aggelos
ang'-el-os
From ἀγγέλλω aggellō (probably derived from G71; to bring tidings); a messenger; especially an “angel”; by implication a pastor: - angel, messenger.

G71
ἄγω
agō
ag'-o
A primary verb; properly to lead; by implication to bring, drive, (reflexively) go, (specifically) pass (time), or (figuratively) induce: - be, bring (forth), carry, (let) go, keep, lead away, be open.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Continuation of spiritual gifts is historical.

All you need now is come up with a host of examples (for those contested gifts) for the first, oh let's be generous say 1,700 years of Church history.

 

[swordsman1]

what is your understand of what "the perfect" refers to in 1 Corinthians 13:10 and how does this relate to the gifts of tongues?

As I said, in my view, the 'perfect' or 'completeness' (as it is better translated in many bible versions) is describing the process of the completion and distribution of the canon and the subsequent maturity that brought to the church. Tongues is not directly related to this process (only prophecy and words of knowledge are in v9), but tongues is said to cease along with them in v8 and so reasonable to conclude that it occurs at the same time.

 

[swordsman1]

the canon does not fit scripture so why should it fit this passage? The completion of the canon in itself is an event unarticulated in scripture.

So are many other things, but they can be easily be inferred, and not just from this passage. For instance the apostles, who wrote scripture, were only for the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). It is therefore logical to conclude their writings would also cease and form a completed canon.

Paul knew he, along with the other apostles, would one day die, but instead of telling Timothy to expect further ongoing revelation, he told him to 'guard the good deposit'.

The completion of the canon was not an alien concept to Paul or the 1st century Christians. They already had one completed canon, the OT, and it's completion wasn't mentioned in scripture either. Now that a new dispensational age had commenced it would be quite reasonable for them to expect another new canon.

 

[JIMINZ]

the perfect meaning "the body of Christ" I don't think quite fits. It doesn't really help the conversation in showing us when the body of Christ will be perfected as the answer would be highly subjective. Was it perfected at the end of the 1st century? is it still yet to be perfected? Plus we need to reconcile the meaning of "then face to face".

The closing of Mark is cited as these type of "signed" gifts which could be an argument for apostles but reading Acts you quickly see that thousands prophesy and speak in tongues

.
I suggest, what I have put forward is a valid argument, just because it does not answer every possable question you have raised, does not mean it is not a PIECE of the puzzle, a beginning point so to speak, and using Sola Scriptura the rest of the pieces can then be found making a complete picture for us, and thus answering those questions you raise.

If as everyone is saying, there are only two viable choices, and those two choices do not answer the question about 1 Co. 13:10

Then don't you think it is time we began looking in another direction even if it could possibly be the wrong direction, we are told to Seek, Knock, and Ask, but if we believe what we have been told and don't question in every avenue of possibility, then we might as well sit down and quit.

Lets not Philosophize ourselves out of learning what God has already written in His word for us to know, that is what Sola Scriptura is all about, the answer to the question is written for us to come to an understanding, we just need to dig it out.

 

[klutedavid]

The context is spiritual gifts. Knowledge is not listed as a spiritual gift. 'Word of knowledge' is. It is one of the 3 gifts that ceased, along with tongues and prophecy.

Hello swordsman.

As I said before swordsman I was just quoting the verse, not delivering a theology.

How would you know for sure whether any gift has ceased or not?

 

[JIMINZ]

the rationale is within 1 Cor 13:10. if the perfect is an event analogous with Christ return this implies the gifts will continue until this event.

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Can you prove that point, is exactly what my argument is, if you cannot begin looking somewhere else for the answer.

How about when the Body of Christ comes to it's fullness being Perfect, and Christ comes back at that time Him being the head.

Does it then follow that we need to know when that event will or did happen, in order for what I have said to be the truth?

 

[JIMINZ]

All you need now is come up with a host of examples (for those contested gifts) for the first, oh let's be generous say 1,700 years of Church history.

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It would appear, your only argument against the continuation of the Gifts would be, you are a Calvinist, and your Doctrine teaches that it has finished, it's what you have been taught, therefore it is truth to you.

Do you only read the Bible to reinforce what you have been taught, or do you question the things you believe?

 

[GingerBeer]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away"

Cessationist use this passage to say that this is identifying the revelatory gifts and claim that "the perfect" has come and these gifts are no more. Essentially they say this "perfect" is the product of the 1st century such as the completion of the NT or the first wave spreading the Church. The problem with this interpretation is it's highly cryptic and is the only passage in the bible that would actually talk about this point of time. If we going to use Sola Scriptura methods should we not be a little more responsible with our interpretations? If Paul actually intended this to mean some mysterious time around the end of the first century you would think there would be something to confirm this?

The Cessationist view has only come out from a reaction to pentecostal movements that they were unwilling to accept so they started with what they wanted scripture to say then used then search of a spot where it could fit but is a very irresponsible way of interpreting. Reality is before the 19th century dominate interpretation was that the perfect was Christ either being with him in Heaven or his return, there was no common accepted Cessationist view. There's enough in scripture to teach on proper use of the gifts or of how the Holy Spirit operates that we shouldn't have to resort to sweeping them under the first century rug.

Sola Scriptura was written by cessationists like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others. Continuationism is against sola scriptura because prophecy and the word of wisdom or the word of knowledge are revelations from God and if they come from God then they are true and binding according to the scriptures.

 

[GingerBeer]

if the interpretation of 1 Corinthians 13:8-10 is fraudulent then what do Cessationist Sola Scriptura believing Christians point to in the bible as confirmation?

The people who claim to be prophets, apostles, and gifted with other gifts are the ones who need to prove their claims not the people who say "I am not so sure that you are an apostle".

 

[JIMINZ]

Just because a few foundational gifts were present in the unique historical times of Acts, doesn't automatically mean they must continue throughout the church age. In fact history demonstrates they didn't.

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According to your history, Constantine established a State Religion of Christianity, with a Hierarchy (Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests)and thereby doing away with what had gone before, (Apostles, Prophets, Teachers) this State Religion continued until the Protestant Reformation, by which time the Gifts had effectively been purged out of Christianity, in order to consolidate the Churches power over the populace, and still does to this day in many parts of the world.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

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It would appear, your only argument against the continuation of the Gifts would be, you are a Calvinist, and your Doctrine teaches that it has finished, it's what you have been taught, therefore it is truth to you.

Do you only read the Bible to reinforce what you have been taught, or do you question the things you believe?

Anyone following my posts in this thread knows just how wrong you are. I will not repeat previous responses ad nauseum. It's a bit surprising someone would like your post considering it's content is an ad hominem, that is attacking the character or motive, not an argument, or even addressing my previous response. If your intention is not to troll, read post #50, 42, 47, 57, and 71 before addressing me again.

 

[Apologetic_Warrior]

Sola Scriptura was written by cessationists like Martin Luther, John Calvin, and others

Not quite, not exactly, check out the following article: Sola Scriptura and the Early Church endnotes include list of resources.

 

[redleghunter]

I lean Cessationist because i dont see any apostles today.

I am cautiously optimistic. The Gospel came in word and Power in the NT when introduced to new peoples. Same happens today in lands hearing the Gospel for the first time.

 

[GingerBeer]

Not quite, not exactly, check out the following article: Sola Scriptura and the Early Church endnotes include list of resources.

It doesn't take too long to read the canons of early church councils to see that the quotes in the link are selective, misleading, and unrepresentative of Christianity before 1520 AD. Sola scriptura was authored by people in the sixteenth century.

 

[thesunisout]

1 Corinthians 13:8-10 says "Love never ends. As for prophecies, they will pass away; as for tongues, they will cease; as for knowledge, it will pass away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part, but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away"

Cessationist use this passage to say that this is identifying the revelatory gifts and claim that "the perfect" has come and these gifts are no more. Essentially they say this "perfect" is the product of the 1st century such as the completion of the NT or the first wave spreading the Church. The problem with this interpretation is it's highly cryptic and is the only passage in the bible that would actually talk about this point of time. If we going to use Sola Scriptura methods should we not be a little more responsible with our interpretations? If Paul actually intended this to mean some mysterious time around the end of the first century you would think there would be something to confirm this?

The Cessationist view has only come out from a reaction to pentecostal movements that they were unwilling to accept so they started with what they wanted scripture to say then used then search of a spot where it could fit but is a very irresponsible way of interpreting. Reality is before the 19th century dominate interpretation was that the perfect was Christ either being with him in Heaven or his return, there was no common accepted Cessationist view. There's enough in scripture to teach on proper use of the gifts or of how the Holy Spirit operates that we shouldn't have to resort to sweeping them under the first century rug.

My view is that if someone were stuck on a desert island with just a bible and reading it for the first time, they would come to the conclusion that the gifts are for today. The only reason anyone believes that they aren't for today is because someone else taught that to them.

 

[swordsman1]

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According to your history, Constantine established a State Religion of Christianity, with a Hierarchy (Pope, Cardinals, Bishops, Priests)and thereby doing away with what had gone before, (Apostles, Prophets, Teachers) this State Religion continued until the Protestant Reformation, by which time the Gifts had effectively been purged out of Christianity, in order to consolidate the Churches power over the populace, and still does to this day in many parts of the world.

Is there any documented evidence that the RC church actively purged prophets and tongues speakers? They can hardly be said to have purged apostles seeing as they believe in apostolic succession. If the charismatic gifts disappeared due to suppression by the RC church, then you would expect them to reappear at the Reformation. They didn't. A more likely explanation is the Holy Spirit ceased giving those particular gifts.

 

[swordsman1]

My view is that if someone were stuck on a desert island with just a bible and reading it for the first time, they would come to the conclusion that the gifts are for today. The only reason anyone believes that they aren't for today is because someone else taught that to them.

Would it be wise to expect someone who has never read the bible before to formulate correct doctrine? At the very least they would need to have a basic grounding in the principles of bible interpretation.

 

[RDKirk]

All you need now is come up with a host of examples (for those contested gifts) for the first, oh let's be generous say 1,700 years of Church history.

Miracles and Apparitions Archives - Catholicism.org

I've personally seen and experienced charisma in operation.

But then, I've not been cloistered in the theological ivory tower that is Western Christianity. Get out there on the fringes--be out there on the fringes--and you see some things that make you realize the Holy Spirit is not a theory.

 

[RDKirk]

So are many other things, but they can be easily be inferred, and not just from this passage. For instance the apostles, who wrote scripture, were only for the foundation of the church (Eph 2:20). It is therefore logical to conclude their writings would also cease and form a completed canon.

Paul knew he, along with the other apostles, would one day die, but instead of telling Timothy to expect further ongoing revelation, he told him to 'guard the good deposit'.

The completion of the canon was not an alien concept to Paul or the 1st century Christians. They already had one completed canon, the OT, and it's completion wasn't mentioned in scripture either. Now that a new dispensational age had commenced it would be quite reasonable for them to expect another new canon.

And yet the Church was in no hurry to complete a canon. Even after being spurred to determine canon in 140 AD by Marcion, it took the Church another 150 years actually to do it--rather, for a pagan emperor to direct them to do it.

That implies that not even Paul's original audience interpreted "canon" in any of his letters.